Say Something Negative About "Shin Gojira"

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Re: Say Something Negative About "Shin Gojira"

Postby KaijuCanuck » Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:15 am

Zarm wrote:Agreed. If anything, it's a complement; the film perfectly captures everything it's trying to; getting the Indiana Jones IV treatment of a superfluous sequel would probably be a diminishment. Wanting it to stand on its own is, in its roundabout way, a desire for preserving its integrity.


Sorry, I think my ears must be blocked. Are you implying Shin is not only good, but SO good that it has a special quality all its own that is in danger of being diminished? ;)
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Re: Say Something Negative About "Shin Gojira"

Postby Maritonic » Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:24 am

KaijuCanuck wrote:
Zarm wrote:Agreed. If anything, it's a complement; the film perfectly captures everything it's trying to; getting the Indiana Jones IV treatment of a superfluous sequel would probably be a diminishment. Wanting it to stand on its own is, in its roundabout way, a desire for preserving its integrity.


Sorry, I think my ears must be blocked. Are you implying Shin is not only good, but SO good that it has a special quality all its own that is in danger of being diminished? ;)


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Re: Say Something Negative About "Shin Gojira"

Postby Zarm » Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:33 am

KaijuCanuck wrote:
Zarm wrote:Agreed. If anything, it's a complement; the film perfectly captures everything it's trying to; getting the Indiana Jones IV treatment of a superfluous sequel would probably be a diminishment. Wanting it to stand on its own is, in its roundabout way, a desire for preserving its integrity.


Sorry, I think my ears must be blocked. Are you implying Shin is not only good, but SO good that it has a special quality all its own that is in danger of being diminished? ;)


Not in the slightest. But, I think that is what such a sentiment- not desiring a sequel- implies, making it something positive rather than negative. (And honestly, I think there are a lot of films or stories which, not necessarily owing to some special quality, but simply because they tell a complete story, are diminished by a needless sequel. Honestly, for me, any sequel that doesn't add at least as much as it subtracts by undoing the finality and appropriateness of the last film's resolution as an ending to the overall storyline, can be a diminishment.)

Hey, if you guys want me to bash Shin...

...Well, actually, I don't find it all that bashable. I find it a decent if extremely overrated film.

...If you guys want me to bash fans of Shin and its place at the top of favorites list over other entries I consider far more deserving, I can certainly prove my identity. But I've suffered enough aggravation seeing my favorites denigrated in the last few weeks that I'd really not inflict that on others, too. So, I have been working hard to hold my tongue on Shin... even as it shows up on every. Single. List. In the 'favorite movies by era' thread, when it is clearly not eve-

*deep breath*

...Like I said, working hard to hold my tongue. ;) Honestly, it's not even one of those films I actually hate. I just like other films better and think they're far more deserving of kudos/high rankings. So at worst, I can say 'Shin is overrated.' Saying 'Shin is bad' would be disingenuous, because I really don't think that.
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Re: Say Something Negative About "Shin Gojira"

Postby KaijuCanuck » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:17 pm

Zarm wrote:
KaijuCanuck wrote:
Zarm wrote:Agreed. If anything, it's a complement; the film perfectly captures everything it's trying to; getting the Indiana Jones IV treatment of a superfluous sequel would probably be a diminishment. Wanting it to stand on its own is, in its roundabout way, a desire for preserving its integrity.


Sorry, I think my ears must be blocked. Are you implying Shin is not only good, but SO good that it has a special quality all its own that is in danger of being diminished? ;)


Not in the slightest. But, I think that is what such a sentiment- not desiring a sequel- implies, making it something positive rather than negative. (And honestly, I think there are a lot of films or stories which, not necessarily owing to some special quality, but simply because they tell a complete story, are diminished by a needless sequel. Honestly, for me, any sequel that doesn't add at least as much as it subtracts by undoing the finality and appropriateness of the last film's resolution as an ending to the overall storyline, can be a diminishment.)

Hey, if you guys want me to bash Shin...

...Well, actually, I don't find it all that bashable. I find it a decent if extremely overrated film.

...If you guys want me to bash fans of Shin and its place at the top of favorites list over other entries I consider far more deserving, I can certainly prove my identity. But I've suffered enough aggravation seeing my favorites denigrated in the last few weeks that I'd really not inflict that on others, too. So, I have been working hard to hold my tongue on Shin... even as it shows up on every. Single. List. In the 'favorite movies by era' thread, when it is clearly not eve-

*deep breath*

...Like I said, working hard to hold my tongue. ;) Honestly, it's not even one of those films I actually hate. I just like other films better and think they're far more deserving of kudos/high rankings. So at worst, I can say 'Shin is overrated.' Saying 'Shin is bad' would be disingenuous, because I really don't think that.


...

So Zarm, what do you think about Star Trek these days?
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Re: Say Something Negative About "Shin Gojira"

Postby Zarm » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:52 pm

*Incoherent screaming, lunging with arms outstretched toward KaijuCanuck as several men in white labcoats drag Zarm away*
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Re: Say Something Negative About "Shin Gojira"

Postby MechaGoji Bro7503 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:16 pm

Zarm wrote:*Incoherent screaming, lunging with arms outstretched toward KaijuCanuck as several men in white labcoats drag Zarm away*

White labcoats? Since when did you guys find my drug vinyl lab??
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Re: Say Something Negative About "Shin Gojira"

Postby KaijuCanuck » Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:47 pm

MechaGoji Bro7503 wrote:
Zarm wrote:*Incoherent screaming, lunging with arms outstretched toward KaijuCanuck as several men in white labcoats drag Zarm away*

White labcoats? Since when did you guys find my drug vinyl lab??


You’re drug lab??? You mean my drug stash!! :mad:
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Re: Say Something Negative About "Shin Gojira"

Postby Zarm » Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:05 pm

Dang, guys- I was just having a psychotic break. Didn't realize I was leading to an inadvertent narcotics bust.

I'll bail ya out if they let me out of the padded room soon enough!
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Re: Say Something Negative About "Shin Gojira"

Postby KaijuCanuck » Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:16 pm

Zarm wrote:Dang, guys- I was just having a psychotic break. Didn't realize I was leading to an inadvertent narcotics bust.

I'll bail ya out if they let me out of the padded room soon enough!


I’m just picturing you rolling around in a straight jacket and muttering to yourself.

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Re: Say Something Negative About "Shin Gojira"

Postby ApexOversteer » Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:45 pm

They didn't remaster the earlier score elements and recording artifacts make the transitions between modern and classic score jarring. I would have re-recorded those score elements.

Satomi Ishihara's attempt at English is unacceptable. If Anno wanted realism he should have cast an actress that can realistically speak the friggin' language.

The biggest negative against Shin Godzilla is the fact that it won't have a sequel.
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Re: Say Something Negative About "Shin Gojira"

Postby Kaiju-King42 » Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:59 pm

ApexOversteer wrote:Satomi Ishihara's attempt at English is unacceptable. If Anno wanted realism he should have cast an actress that can realistically speak the friggin' language.


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Re: Say Something Negative About "Shin Gojira"

Postby Rodan » Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:33 am

-The human cost is too sanitized for what the film tries to portray, I believe in the interest of keeping it more broadly appealing, but it really is a bit distracting how sterile this supposed catastrophe is. '54 doesn't exactly go heavy on bodily carnage, but you still get quite a sense for the individual human cost. It isn't anything that undoes the movie, but I do wish it had leaned on this a bit harder, instead of seeming to shirk away from it at all turns.

-Somewhat related, while the casts' motivations are clear, and most of them are more than well-drawn enough for their roles, they also feel relatively sterile. I think I've seen someone comment on here that they seem to have no hint of personal connections or feelings outside of their jobs? That's fine if it's even more pointed, but it almost seems accidental that they seem to largely be sexless and familyless.

-The criticism of unsettling nationalistic undercurrents have some merit even though they don't undo the film as a compelling work of art

That's it, really. More than two years later and it still feels great that there was such a refreshing, thoughtfully executed take.
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Re: Say Something Negative About "Shin Gojira"

Postby Desghidorah » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:58 am

With some political study already under my belt I found myself rolling my eyes the film specified it would be the USA pushing hard for the nuke to be dropped. Lots of other countries be much more prone to do so and it comes off as forced just to bring back themes of the atomic bombs from WW2. There's some other politics I could get into where I find some of the film's workings or choices laughable at best and extremely rude at worst, but such is nature of politics in film. Certainly is good parts to the film but I don't find it as politically savvy as some put forth. It's very much from a Japanese perspective but something to keep in mind if no country's perspective is without issue.
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Re: Say Something Negative About "Shin Gojira"

Postby Mr_Goji_and_Watch » Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:30 am

Rodan wrote:-The human cost is too sanitized for what the film tries to portray, I believe in the interest of keeping it more broadly appealing, but it really is a bit distracting how sterile this supposed catastrophe is. '54 doesn't exactly go heavy on bodily carnage, but you still get quite a sense for the individual human cost. It isn't anything that undoes the movie, but I do wish it had leaned on this a bit harder, instead of seeming to shirk away from it at all turns.


Yeah I think that's my only legitimate complaint about it. It's pretty impersonal, you don't get the sense of how many lives were lost. Although you could argue that since 3/11 is still fresh in the minds of Japanese people, it's not necessary to drive the point. There's more than enough imagery and similar situations that will bring out the real loss of life back into your mind.
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Re: Say Something Negative About "Shin Gojira"

Postby MechaGoji Bro7503 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:39 pm

Kaiju-King42 wrote:
ApexOversteer wrote:Satomi Ishihara's attempt at English is unacceptable. If Anno wanted realism he should have cast an actress that can realistically speak the friggin' language.


JAS YOO ASS JAH PAN SOOOO... WEEN WEEN!

I mean, the fact that she took the step to try learning English for her role is a pretty damn good example of challenging yourself for a role. Sorta like how say, Arnold Schwarzenegger took more comedic roles overtime, for better or worse.
I'm not trying to give her a pass "just for trying", but the fact that she's still speaking English in some roles (she got better in one recent Canadian advertisement), is more than enough to show one's determination.
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Re: Say Something Negative About "Shin Gojira"

Postby kamilleblu » Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:26 pm

Desghidorah wrote:With some political study already under my belt I found myself rolling my eyes the film specified it would be the USA pushing hard for the nuke to be dropped. Lots of other countries be much more prone to do so and it comes off as forced just to bring back themes of the atomic bombs from WW2. There's some other politics I could get into where I find some of the film's workings or choices laughable at best and extremely rude at worst, but such is nature of politics in film. Certainly is good parts to the film but I don't find it as politically savvy as some put forth. It's very much from a Japanese perspective but something to keep in mind if no country's perspective is without issue.

The United States was concerned about Godzilla's reproductive and mutation capabilities. They were also shown to be divided on the issue. But ultimately the US helps to make Yaguchi's operation possible. Additionally, Akasaka mentions they would have still been willing to use the nuke even if Godzilla had attacked a US city like New York. Russia and China were the ones unwilling to negotiate.

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Re: Say Something Negative About "Shin Gojira"

Postby Desghidorah » Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:51 pm

kamilleblu wrote:
Desghidorah wrote:With some political study already under my belt I found myself rolling my eyes the film specified it would be the USA pushing hard for the nuke to be dropped. Lots of other countries be much more prone to do so and it comes off as forced just to bring back themes of the atomic bombs from WW2. There's some other politics I could get into where I find some of the film's workings or choices laughable at best and extremely rude at worst, but such is nature of politics in film. Certainly is good parts to the film but I don't find it as politically savvy as some put forth. It's very much from a Japanese perspective but something to keep in mind if no country's perspective is without issue.

The United States was concerned about Godzilla's reproductive and mutation capabilities. They were also shown to be divided on the issue. But ultimately the US helps to make Yaguchi's operation possible. Additionally, Akasaka mentions they would have still been willing to use the nuke even if Godzilla had attacked a US city like New York. Russia and China were the ones unwilling to negotiate.


Again, not all the politics are bad. I just see some praising them as realistic or iron clad and that's not really the case. Additionally the film hammers it in multiple times it's the USA, not Russia or China, that is pushing hard for the nuke to be launched and set the time table. Most of the blame for dumping nuclear waste is situated on them, despite the fact Japan was doing it as well. Additionally the real life incidents that helped inspire a lot of the imagery in this film had a praised fast response by the nearby US military bases in helping play damage control and assist the Japanese groups back onto their feet. Compare this to the film, where the bomber strike goes ahead of schedule and is directly at blame for the nuclear breath born 'urban renewal project' that turned most of Tokyo into a fireball.

The antagonism towards the USA is countered by other countries being portrayed almost wholly benignly is something I noticed. I'm not above my country having pot shots taken at it, it sure as heck ain't perfect and botches a LOT of issues. But considering the real-life basis for some of Shin's events as well as the fact US help for Japan pretty much only comes by means of a Japanese-American when she feels the urge to keep her grandmother's nation from getting nuked by the USA again... yeah, kinda can't not notice some things. This also isn't to say I dislike the film or don't understand the political reasoning. I rather like it, I just disagree with some of the viewpoints.
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Re: Say Something Negative About "Shin Gojira"

Postby kamilleblu » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:44 pm

Desghidorah wrote:
kamilleblu wrote:
Desghidorah wrote:With some political study already under my belt I found myself rolling my eyes the film specified it would be the USA pushing hard for the nuke to be dropped. Lots of other countries be much more prone to do so and it comes off as forced just to bring back themes of the atomic bombs from WW2. There's some other politics I could get into where I find some of the film's workings or choices laughable at best and extremely rude at worst, but such is nature of politics in film. Certainly is good parts to the film but I don't find it as politically savvy as some put forth. It's very much from a Japanese perspective but something to keep in mind if no country's perspective is without issue.

The United States was concerned about Godzilla's reproductive and mutation capabilities. They were also shown to be divided on the issue. But ultimately the US helps to make Yaguchi's operation possible. Additionally, Akasaka mentions they would have still been willing to use the nuke even if Godzilla had attacked a US city like New York. Russia and China were the ones unwilling to negotiate.


Again, not all the politics are bad. I just see some praising them as realistic or iron clad and that's not really the case. Additionally the film hammers it in multiple times it's the USA, not Russia or China, that is pushing hard for the nuke to be launched and set the time table. Most of the blame for dumping nuclear waste is situated on them, despite the fact Japan was doing it as well. Additionally the real life incidents that helped inspire a lot of the imagery in this film had a praised fast response by the nearby US military bases in helping play damage control and assist the Japanese groups back onto their feet. Compare this to the film, where the bomber strike goes ahead of schedule and is directly at blame for the nuclear breath born 'urban renewal project' that turned most of Tokyo into a fireball.

The antagonism towards the USA is countered by other countries being portrayed almost wholly benignly is something I noticed. I'm not above my country having pot shots taken at it, it sure as heck ain't perfect and botches a LOT of issues. But considering the real-life basis for some of Shin's events as well as the fact US help for Japan pretty much only comes by means of a Japanese-American when she feels the urge to keep her grandmother's nation from getting nuked by the USA again... yeah, kinda can't not notice some things. This also isn't to say I dislike the film or don't understand the political reasoning. I rather like it, I just disagree with some of the viewpoints.

Sure. There's some tension between Japan and the United States in Shin Godzilla. The United States comes across as a little overbearing and does not always seem to consider or understand how the Japanese might feel about the actions it takes. And, with Japan so dependent on the US, it isn't exactly in the position to risk upsetting its Western ally. I think Anno was pretty level-handed. Did you forget that most nations agreed with nuclear option? And they had plenty of incentive to end the threat Godzilla as quickly as possible. Patterson mentions that a lot of Air Force and Marine personnel volunteered to help make Operation Yashiori a reality, US Official Cussing says that he had been arguing against the nuke, the drones and other US firepower play a significant role in bringing Godzilla down, and we see the American ambassadors agreeing that the demands are too insensitive. Was the dumping of nuclear waste specifically pinned on the United States? If so, the United States dumped far more nuclear waste in the ocean than Japan and a good chunk of it was in the Pacific Ocean.

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Re: Say Something Negative About "Shin Gojira"

Postby Desghidorah » Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:17 pm

kamilleblu wrote:
Desghidorah wrote:
kamilleblu wrote:The United States was concerned about Godzilla's reproductive and mutation capabilities. They were also shown to be divided on the issue. But ultimately the US helps to make Yaguchi's operation possible. Additionally, Akasaka mentions they would have still been willing to use the nuke even if Godzilla had attacked a US city like New York. Russia and China were the ones unwilling to negotiate.


Again, not all the politics are bad. I just see some praising them as realistic or iron clad and that's not really the case. Additionally the film hammers it in multiple times it's the USA, not Russia or China, that is pushing hard for the nuke to be launched and set the time table. Most of the blame for dumping nuclear waste is situated on them, despite the fact Japan was doing it as well. Additionally the real life incidents that helped inspire a lot of the imagery in this film had a praised fast response by the nearby US military bases in helping play damage control and assist the Japanese groups back onto their feet. Compare this to the film, where the bomber strike goes ahead of schedule and is directly at blame for the nuclear breath born 'urban renewal project' that turned most of Tokyo into a fireball.

The antagonism towards the USA is countered by other countries being portrayed almost wholly benignly is something I noticed. I'm not above my country having pot shots taken at it, it sure as heck ain't perfect and botches a LOT of issues. But considering the real-life basis for some of Shin's events as well as the fact US help for Japan pretty much only comes by means of a Japanese-American when she feels the urge to keep her grandmother's nation from getting nuked by the USA again... yeah, kinda can't not notice some things. This also isn't to say I dislike the film or don't understand the political reasoning. I rather like it, I just disagree with some of the viewpoints.


Sure. There's some tension between Japan and the United States in Shin Godzilla. The United States comes across as a little overbearing and does not always seem to consider or understand how the Japanese might feel about the actions it takes. And, with Japan so dependent on the US, it isn't exactly in the position to risk upsetting its Western ally. I think Anno was pretty level-handed. Did you forget that most nations agreed with nuclear option? And they had plenty of incentive to end the threat Godzilla as quickly as possible. Patterson mentions that a lot of Air Force and Marine personnel volunteered to help make Operation Yashiori a reality, US Official Cussing says that he had been arguing against the nuke, the drones and other US firepower play a significant role in bringing Godzilla down, and we see the American ambassadors agreeing that the demands are too insensitive. Was the dumping of nuclear waste specifically pinned on the United States? If so, the United States dumped far more nuclear waste in the ocean than Japan and a good chunk of it was in the Pacific Ocean.


I didn't forget about how the other nations (sans France) agreed to the nuclear option however that is countered by literally almost every time the nuclear launch is brought up, they specifically say the USA was pushing for it. By comparison the other nations got a single mention in most occurrences. Additionally the marines being present to help is barely given notice and I actually completely missed it on my first few watches, most of the US contribution to stopping Godzilla is all on the drones which is balanced against the other nations also contributing. France stalling the countdown got just as much, if not more notice. Patterson's willingness to help is also played with the connotation she's the only official to fight hard on Japan's behalf on the basis of her being of Japanese descent. In several notable Eastern Asian countries there is a notion of motherland overriding generational shifts and nationality. In essence, some would consider a Japanese American to actually be a Japanese just living in America. This Patterson helping Japan is seen more as a foreign born Japanese person helping her motherland. I know this sounds weird and it sure as heck ain't universal, but I've actually done ethnography fieldwork on this exact topic with immigration.

Meanwhile most of the non-Japanese American characters either do nothing, do little, or voice vocal support the nuclear option is the only way. The main vibe the USA is given towards Japan's wellbeing time and time again is apathetic, with even specific notes of 'puppet state' brought up more than once. Exceptions exist, but they were exceptions. They also routinely trouble the investigation by seizing or destroying samples, trying to override the group, hiding evidence of the monster, and trying to keep foreign powers aside from themselves out. None of which are known as benign.

I'm not saying the film is Anti-American, I've seen far, far worse. However the gripe I have here is no other country was routinely shown off as badly. One could argue the entire collection of poor events in the film was blamed on the USA, something I do feel is heavy handed to some degree. And in light of the real world parallels, it honestly was kinda jarring. In life the tragedies that struck Japan saw a massive aid effort by the USA coming to it's ally's aid that was widely credited with helping both mend the damage and improve human life. In Shin Godzilla, the very same disasters which provided inspiration and imagery of many of the films sequences are partially or almost entirely blamed on the USA in some form or another. I'm not trying to cause an argument here, but the dissonance is the cause of my gripe.
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Re: Say Something Negative About "Shin Gojira"

Postby kamilleblu » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:28 pm

Desghidorah wrote:I didn't forget about how the other nations (sans France) agreed to the nuclear option however that is countered by literally almost every time the nuclear launch is brought up, they specifically say the USA was pushing for it. By comparison the other nations got a single mention in most occurrences.

France is mentioned twice if I remember correctly. Immediately before and following Operation Yashiori. Germany is mentioned once. China and Russia get mentioned twice. What I gathered from this is that Japan cannot just rely on a single ally all of the time. Thus Cussing's comment, "Japan has grownup enough to have international deals on the sly." Compare that to moments earlier in the film. One of the first responses from a Japanese government official is to ask the United States to handle the matter on Japan's behalf and later the officials cheer the US on when they bomb Godzilla. Shin Godzilla does not come across as anti-US or push for Japan to avoid the US. It seems to advocate a more balanced relationship between the two countries and balanced is a word that would be difficult to use to define US-Japan relations. Shin Godzilla is bigger than Fukushima. It's a reflection on Japanese-US relations as a whole.

Desghidorah wrote:Patterson's willingness to help is also played with the connotation she's the only official to fight hard on Japan's behalf on the basis of her being of Japanese descent. In several notable Eastern Asian countries there is a notion of motherland overriding generational shifts and nationality. In essence, some would consider a Japanese American to actually be a Japanese just living in America. This Patterson helping Japan is seen more as a foreign born Japanese person helping her motherland. I know this sounds weird and it sure as heck ain't universal, but I've actually done ethnography fieldwork on this exact topic with immigration.

Patterson is characterized as extremely Western and it's used to contrast her with her native Japanese counterparts. I'd like to think there was more to her decision than her Japanese heritage. Based on what we see of her character, I doubt she would have abandoned Japan even if she were another nationality. What would make you think otherwise? By the way, she speaks of Japan as an other. Not something she's part of. That's an important distinction in my opinion. But what would you call this East Asian notion or could you provide a link for further reading on the subject?

Desghidorah wrote:Meanwhile most of the non-Japanese American characters either do nothing, do little, or voice vocal support the nuclear option is the only way. The main vibe the USA is given towards Japan's wellbeing time and time again is apathetic, with even specific notes of 'puppet state' brought up more than once. Exceptions exist, but they were exceptions.

Those exceptions are the other side of the coin to a fair depiction in my opinion. I might have been more inclined to agree with you if it weren't for those comments or if there were less of them. But there are several instances showing the US in a sympathetic light. And it's not like the film doesn't equally criticize Japan or doesn't make an effort to show there are valid reasons for wanting to use the nuke.


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