Violet Atomic Heat Ray temperature?

[American Godzilla]

When looking at various temperatures for Toho's Gojira Atomic Breath, I began to ponder on how hot could Shin Gojira's breath be?


For a comparison, according to Toho, the standard Blue Atomic Breath is 500,000 degrees Celsius while the Red Atomic Breath (used by Burning/Final Gojiras... and possibly the 2000 Gojira) is 1.2 million degrees Celsius!

In in the real world, red flame is the coolest temp color while blue is the hottest... with violet being just below it. Since in the Toho universe, Red and Blue are swapped around as far as who's hotter, I think Shin Gojira's Violet Atomic Heat Rays are just under 1.2 million degrees Celsius in temperature (for a random/conservative number, say 800,000 degrees Celsius).

While this would suggest that only Gojiras that could fire (and thus withstand the heat of) the Red Atomic Breaths could actually survive an attack from Shin Gojira, this is only my speculation.

UPDATE: Some sites say Blue is hotter, others say Violet is. So would that mean that Violet Atomic Breath is hotter than even the Red Atomic Breath?

What do you folks think?

[Zarm]

The fantasy matches have debated this at length. I will not recount them all here, except to note that the heat vaporization abilities of this beam- instantaneously vaporizing both concrete and steel, including multiple layers, on contact so that there is not even a frame's-worth of interruption as it cuts through something, is an effect that no other beams have managed to duplicate. The closest comparisons, which have still managed only lesser feats, have done so with explosive force, and even those have not managed the same level of instantaneous vaporization and uninterrupted beam effect of shearing through something like a lightsaber. So, based on onscreen evidence rather than color, I would call it the hottest of any of Godzilla's rays. Though whether that equates to most powerful is a different matter, since each ray is a combination of not only heat, but kinetic, and explosive force, each Godzilla has a beam that is stronger in certain areas and weaker in others.

At the very least, I would put this in the top-tier, possibly just below certain special beams like Burning Godzilla's which don't really give us very accurate comparators against building style targets (but are high-temp rated by external materials). But in terms of the heat aspect, if not the explosive or kinetic, this one seems to exceed any other version's demonstrated abilities. Whether that matches with the temperature color is another matter.

[Inferno Rodan]

^We really need to remember that prettier SFX do not inherently equate to greater power. The missiles fired by the naval ships in the final sequence had nearly identical effects on the buildings they struck as Shin's beam did. So citing the beam's effect on buildings isn't saying a whole lot. I REALLY wish we'd gotten a shot of the ground after he blasted the pump trucks, but alas.

[Zarm]

I would suggest, though, that the choice to draw a ray remaining constant or stopping against a building and then punching through after a matter of frames or seconds is not a matter of FX advances, since it can be done just as easily with hand-animation or CGI; and it is the non-interruption, rather than the fire or explosions, on which the claim is based.

[Inferno Rodan]

That's a result of being a thin, focused beam, though. Of course it'll encounter less resistance when passing through a building. That has nothing to do with heat output. See: the Sonic Cutters of the assorted Gyaos, which have no heat whatsoever but pass through buildings just as easily as Shin's beam does.

[Zarm]

Different universe, different rules. Within the Toho universe's physics, it's an unprecedented feat.

I realize the narrower beam has an advantage, but the lack of interruption means that the beam is passing through everything that it touches (even when encountering the entire mass from the side, or pushing directly through it from head-on) so instantaneously that not even a micro-second is needed to tunnel through; no part of the beam is absorbed or expended by the process of destruction to fail to pass through. Including at multiple layers and depths. To me, that can be nothing but complete vaporization- and based on the portrayal of the beam (and the ancillary fires and molten edges), that would appear to come from nothing but the heat property; the side-effects suggest that unlike the sonic weaponry, its effects are all based on its heat property. Its instantaneous passing through- as if stone or steel were nothing more than air- cannot be merely explained by the narrowness of the beam, so far as I can tell; the key really is the material being eradicated so instantaneously that the beam suffers no interruption.

(EDIT: In combination with the speed it sweeps through and still produces the full effect, if that makes any sense; the beam doesn't require any focus or apparently any length of time whatsoever to.vaporize, make molten the surrounding area, and start fires, even when sweeping across the face of a building in just a few frames, carving massive swaths with full potential over a fraction of a second; with any lesser heat, I would expect such a brief sweep to pass over with relatively little damage, because there was no time for the heat to concentrate; to do that full level of damage with such a quick brush across would seem to me to require extreme heat).

[Dawsbfiremind]

Different universe, different rules. Within the Toho universe's physics, it's an unprecedented feat.

I realize the narrower beam has an advantage, but the lack of interruption means that the beam is passing through everything that it touches (even when encountering the entire mass from the side, or pushing directly through it from head-on) so instantaneously that not even a micro-second is needed to tunnel through; no part of the beam is absorbed or expended by the process of destruction to fail to pass through. Including at multiple layers and depths. To me, that can be nothing but complete vaporization- and based on the portrayal of the beam (and the ancillary fires and molten edges), that would appear to come from nothing but the heat property; the side-effects suggest that unlike the sonic weaponry, its effects are all based on its heat property. Its instantaneous passing through- as if stone or steel were nothing more than air- cannot be merely explained by the narrowness of the beam, so far as I can tell; the key really is the material being eradicated so instantaneously that the beam suffers no interruption.

(EDIT: In combination with the speed it sweeps through and still produces the full effect, if that makes any sense; the beam doesn't require any focus or apparently any length of time whatsoever to.vaporize, make molten the surrounding area, and start fires, even when sweeping across the face of a building in just a few frames, carving massive swaths with full potential over a fraction of a second; with any lesser heat, I would expect such a brief sweep to pass over with relatively little damage, because there was no time for the heat to concentrate; to do that full level of damage with such a quick brush across would seem to me to require extreme heat).

Dang son, you a physicist?

[Zarm]

Dang son, you a physicist?

Ha! I wish! About the farthest from it; math is my kryptonite. Heck, I suspect someone with a real knowledge of physics to come in here and wipe the floor with me any second.

[Dawsbfiremind]

Dang son, you a physicist?

Ha! I wish! About the farthest from it; math is my kryptonite. Heck, I suspect someone with a real knowledge of physics to come in here and wipe the floor with me any second.

Don't look at me, I hate math too (and am more apt at metaphysics).

[Inferno Rodan]

Different universe, different rules. Within the Toho universe's physics, it's an unprecedented feat.

Completely irrelevant. It's a narrow, focused beam. It's going to encounter less resistance when passing though something regardless of what universe it's in. Again, nothing you're pointing out as evidence for the beam being extremely hot is actually because of exceptionally extreme heat by kaiju beam standards. It's all because of the physicality of the beam. Yeah, there's fire when it hits stuff. It's an energy beam, that's gonna happen. The only reason it didn't happen in older movies is because they didn't have halfway decent CGI to make it happen.

Let's say, for argument's sake (because it unfortunately never happened in the movie *grumblegrumble*) that LP Godzilla blasted a large building with his atomic breath. It failed to go completely through the building due to being relatively diffuse and widespread, but instead vaporized the entire front side of said building. Would you consider that a more or less impressive showing of heat than Shin's beam?

[Zarm]

I the vaporization was instantaneous at the moment of contact, equally impressive- but also likely to move all the way through the building anyhow. Again, the point isn't lessened resistance; it's zero resistance. Instantaneous vaporization so that the concrete and steel offer no more resistance than air. I don't think that's a function of lesser resistance or narrower focus; those would both imply drilling through a surface faster than a more diffuse beam. In this case, the beam treats the surface as if it isn't there, with molten effects and fires breaking out around the edges (visual evidence implying heat as the primary property- and while the fires breaking out may just be an advance in special effects, the edges being molten does still imply heat as the primary property. Whether the effects have advanced from previous films or not, visual signifies of heat are the ones they chose to use for this beam). To my way of seeing it- and again, I could be wrong- that makes the strength of the beam an irrelevant factor, as something in the beam is actually causing the vaporization of the material on contact- a property which would have the same effects applied to a beam of any width. And since the visual indicators point to heat as being this vaporizer's primary property, then I find it logical to assume that the heat is the element responsible for the vaporization.

I don't know if that makes sense; the simple version is that the manner in which the beam behaves is not of one encountering material but passing through it more readily because of focus, but of something vaporizing material out of its path, as it requires insanely little contact time, has insane levels of instantaneous penetrating power (and I can't stress enough what a quantum leap upward 'instantaneous', with no interruption of the beam, is over even 'infinitesimal interruption'), and has (as near as I can tell without a frame-by-frame DVD review) absolutely zero blockage or backspray from penetrating and forcing its way through things (at any thickness or multiplicity). For the LPG example to be equivalent, it would have to vaporize the front of a building at the instant of contact; an that's something I don't think any of the rays have ever been portrayed as remotely close to.

[Tomzilla]

I REALLY wish we'd gotten a shot of the ground after he blasted the pump trucks, but alas.

You and me both.

With that said, I agree more with Zarm's assessment on this topic of discussion, and it's not because of the pretty VFX. The modernity of VFX is not a prerequisite in analyzing the power output of these characters and their attacks (e.g., I think Showa Gyaos's Sonic Cutter is far more powerful and dangerous than anything GINO has ever shown, despite the VFX of GINO's movie being far superior.) There's also the fact VFX quality is inherently subjective, too, but I have no interest in wading into that quagmire.

The mere fact Shin Godzilla's heat ray instantaneously blasted through several skyscrapers, which were spread out a respectable distance, and it did this consistently is why I think it's incredibly powerful. It took Shin Godzilla less time to turn several city blocks into molten slag than it took you to reach the end of this sentence.

With that said, I'm sure we can still get an approximate number. It didn't take that long for one of Shin's beams to slice through a B-2 Bomber while simultaneously burning most of the craft. How much heat can a B-2 Bomber withstand?

[Zarm]

With that said, I'm sure we can still get an approximate number. It didn't take that long for one of Shin's beams to slice through a B-2 Bomber while simultaneously burning most of the craft. How much heat can a B-2 Bomber withstand?

You know, I tried to stat this out for the FMs a while back.. the internet is strangely silent on the cruising altitude, hull composition, and durability of a B-2 bomber, for some reason.

[Gawdziller1954]

With that said, I'm sure we can still get an approximate number. It didn't take that long for one of Shin's beams to slice through a B-2 Bomber while simultaneously burning most of the craft. How much heat can a B-2 Bomber withstand?

You know, I tried to stat this out for the FMs a while back.. the internet is strangely silent on the cruising altitude, hull composition, and durability of a B-2 bomber, for some reason.

Well, max altitude for a B2 is 50K feet, do I'd assume the cruising altitude is a bit lower. I believe the internet is silent about most of this though because the B2 is extremely expensive and high-tech. There are probably some things that the USAF doesn't want the general populace to have knowledge about when it comes to advanced aircraft.

[Zarm]

Well, max altitude for a B2 is 50K feet, do I'd assume the cruising altitude is a bit lower. I believe the internet is silent about most of this though because the B2 is extremely expensive and high-tech. There are probably some things that the USAF doesn't want the general populace to have knowledge about when it comes to advanced aircraft.

I kinda figured it was something like that.

(As usual, I tried to convey dry humor via text and just conveyed cluelessness instead).

But good to know about the altitude (in terms of a range for the ray; not an issue for this topic, but a useful stat nonetheless)- I guess the big question is whether that height varies for bombing runs.

[Inferno Rodan]

You and me both.

Why can't filmmakers include tiny little details like that? They would help us nerds quantify these things, and general audiences would just think it's cool. ARRG!

The modernity of VFX is not a prerequisite in analyzing the power output of these characters and their attacks (e.g., I think Showa Gyaos's Sonic Cutter is far more powerful and dangerous than anything GINO has ever shown, despite the VFX of GINO's movie being far superior.)

Obviously. That's not what I'm talking about though. All I'm saying is that there would be bits of fire and molten material around where, say, Heisei Godzilla's beam hits a building too, it's just that older Toho SFX didn't allow for such.

With that said, I'm sure we can still get an approximate number. It didn't take that long for one of Shin's beams to slice through a B-2 Bomber while simultaneously burning most of the craft. How much heat can a B-2 Bomber withstand?

Shit's classified, yo. But I would assume the frame is aluminum while the skin is either also aluminum or some sort of plastic composite (or a combination of the two). Either way it's not very tough.

Before you get too carried away with that, though, keep in mind that the damage to the B-2 wasn't terribly out of character even for a standard missile strike on an aircraft:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VBiqsQ2CjY
https://laststandonzombieisland.files.w ... otdown.jpg

Hell, even a non-explosive training bomb can reduce an aircraft to a fireball:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp-cXkIKqcA

Also, there's currently a laser system that can burn through aircraft despite obviously being nowhere near the power output of even a weak kaiju beam:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBuiPZm6hK4
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Compo ... 130508.jpg

[Jomei]

Somebody did the math.

http://jimpluff.tumblr.com/post/1636095 ... d-to#notes

[Zarm]

Somebody did the math.

http://jimpluff.tumblr.com/post/1636095 ... d-to#notes

It may be my Tumblr-ignorance, but... all the supporting evidence is in Japansese on the linked page?

[Inferno Rodan]

Somebody did the math.

http://jimpluff.tumblr.com/post/1636095 ... d-to#notes

This is why I love math. Granted, I tend to not put a whole lot of stock into calculations like this when it comes to FM-style discussions because, realistically speaking, no kaiju beam actually behaves like an energy beam of such magnitude should and trying to analyze them as much more than magical 'splodey death rays is just asking for trouble. But that doesn't stop it from being damn cool to read about regardless.

It may be my Tumblr-ignorance, but... all the supporting evidence is in Japansese on the linked page?

Plug the link into Google Translate.

[Zarm]

So, the relevant section comes out:

Calcium dioxide, the main component of concrete, decomposes into carbon dioxide and calcium oxide when it reaches 825 degrees or more.

The heat rays of Godzilla were obviously higher than that.

Let's concretely consider its power.

The thickness of the ray emitted from the back was about 1 m, and a building of about 50 m side was cut instantaneously.

If the time to cut the building was 0.1 seconds (it seemed that much), the temperature of the battle is not 825 degrees. The object on which the heat ray was hit should have been heated to 160,000 degrees!

160 thousand degrees!

Materials that can withstand this are not present anywhere in the universe.

I can not do anything any more.

Added in 3 hours 51 minutes 39 seconds:
Interesting. While that is an 'at least' figure (lower limit established, upper limit unestablished), that's well below Heisei Godzilla, whose regular beam is placed at 500,000.