Shin Satire

[Mac Daddy MM]

Though really, that whole thing just struck me as poor writing rather than intentional satire, personally. With Godzilla completely incapacitated by that first airstrike, why on earth didn't they take the opportunity to just bomb him into oblivion while he was helpless?

I imagine that was the idea, but we know Japan's horrible military tactic choices from prior monster movies. Need we speak about the absolutely horrible "Quick, point in the opposite direction and fire every weapon!" logic that plagues the super golden Showa era? Or the fly jet fighters straight at kaiju at head/chest level in the later series?

Psssh.

No wonder Japan would have lost WW2, even if we didn't nuke them.

[Jomei]

^See, that's exactly the kind of satire we need more of. Couldn't have done a better impression of that kind of fan. Bravo!

[Mac Daddy MM]

^See, that's exactly the kind of satire we need more of. Couldn't have done a better impression of that kind of fan. Bravo!

Will you mention me on your blog, Jobae?

[Inferno Rodan]

It's just funny that you mistake your misunderstandings of details in the film for poor writing. Like I said, you're basing your "criticism" on how you imagine Shin's powers work. It's fantasy match junk. Nerd-wank speculation about the extent of kaiju abilities. It's on the same level of sophistication as discussing how powerful Final Wars Goji's beam is specifically. In other words, such a silly notion as not to merit serious reply.

Pardon me for not blindly fellating the movie like you do.

But okay, I'll play along a bit more. What exactly is my misunderstanding?

^See, that's exactly the kind of satire we need more of. Couldn't have done a better impression of that kind of fan. Bravo!

The funniest part is that the impression he was doing wasn't the kind of fan you're thinking it was.

[Jomei]

^See, that's exactly the kind of satire we need more of. Couldn't have done a better impression of that kind of fan. Bravo!

Will you mention me on your blog, Jobae?

Pay per post. You know the drill! No handouts.

Pardon me for not blindly fellating the movie like you do.

You're pardoned. But start fellating it with your eyes wide open from now on. I want you to look up and see...

What exactly is my misunderstanding?

Like I said, I'm not going to jump down into the teen bop fantasy match-tier power speculation with you. To put it simply, your criticism implies certain limits to how Shin's abilities work, but you're just making assumptions about that, and you're overlooking details that are clearly presented in the film in your criticism of the military's actions--chiefly that bombing Shin to anything but total scorched-earth annihilation serves only to make more Shin Godzillas.

[Mac Daddy MM]

chiefly that bombing Shin to anything but total scorched-earth annihilation serves only to make more Shin Godzillas.

This is something that was never confirmed in the film. Nor was this theory of self-replicating, WoTG-style spawning brought up until after the initial bombing. If you're going to debate Fantasy Match logistics, Jobae, you have to get the power facts and feats of said kaiju correct. And even then, the Shin Skid Mark that would be left after a constant bomb run could easily be mopped up by some heavy napalm runs and then some. Perhaps a few other chemical/biological weapons. It's rather sad that they didn't even try cadmium... But when the Heisei era already did that, I guess Anno had to resort to just orally raping Godzilla with some fancy blood coagulate.

[GodEmperorGabara]

No cadmium, no ANEB, and no Yuki Special (lewd). Anno did not do his research nor is he a true fan. 0/10 please see me after class, Anno-san.

[Inferno Rodan]

Like I said, I'm not going to jump down into the teen bop fantasy match-tier power speculation with you. To put it simply, your criticism implies certain limits to how Shin's abilities work, but you're just making assumptions about that, and you're overlooking details that are clearly presented in the film in your criticism of the military's actions--chiefly that bombing Shin to anything but total scorched-earth annihilation serves only to make more Shin Godzillas.

Except that was specifically addressed in the film and decided upon that it wasn't a possibility. Try again.

[Jomei]

chiefly that bombing Shin to anything but total scorched-earth annihilation serves only to make more Shin Godzillas.

This is something that was never confirmed in the film. Nor was this theory of self-replicating,

Except that was specifically addressed in the film and decided upon that it wasn't a possibility. Try again.

edit: Wait, are stills from the legal Japanese release still not allowed here? It makes it awfully hard to discuss details from this film if that's not allowed, especially considering some people ordered the Japanese release and have it perfectly legally. See my blog for a post re: this topic. It's specifically shown in film that Shin goes through asexual reproduction when a piece is severed from his body. It's posited that this would lead to "colonization all over the world." 1:16:50 in the film if you have it.

At this point, the western scientists gathered decide they've seen enough, walking out as they discuss how "that would be the end of the human race, we must use our nuclear wisdom before it's too late." It's literally the reason a nuclear strike is decided upon, and the reason is shown on screen with computer simulation and character dialogue spelling it out in case you can't follow!

I know some viewers aren't quick enough to keep up with the information dumps in this film, but we have the Japanese home video release now, guys. And you know there are subs out there.

[Mac Daddy MM]

It's specifically shown in film that Shin goes through asexual reproduction when a piece is severed from his body. It's posited that this would lead to "colonization all over the world." 1:16:50 in the film if you have it.

This is something that was never confirmed in the film. Nor was this theory of self-replicating, WoTG-style spawning brought up until after the initial bombing. If you're going to debate Fantasy Match logistics, Jobae, you have to get the power facts and feats of said kaiju correct. And even then, the Shin Skid Mark that would be left after a constant bomb run could easily be mopped up by some heavy napalm runs and then some. Perhaps a few other chemical/biological weapons. It's rather sad that they didn't even try cadmium... But when the Heisei era already did that, I guess Anno had to resort to just orally raping Godzilla with some fancy blood coagulate.

A theory is a very different thing than a fact, Jobae. Theoretically with the information given to the viewer about G2K's severed flesh healing, we could theorize his cells could also lead to ""colonization all over the world." However, because we know G2K's flesh never grows legs and moves about, and we never see Shin's severed tissue do anything of the sort except for a deleted scene where it grows... eyeballs.. (?)... I guess Anno decided to rip off The Thing there... but that's a deleted scene and no longer canonical.

You're not doing very well at these fantasy match logistic debates, brostein.

[Jomei]

A theory is a very different thing than a fact, Jobae. Theoretically with the information given to the viewer about G2K's severed flesh healing, we could theorize his cells could also lead to ""colonization all over the world." However, because we know G2K's flesh never grows legs and moves about, and we never see Shin's severed tissue do anything of the sort except for a deleted scene where it grows... eyeballs.. (?)... I guess Anno decided to rip off The Thing there... but that's a deleted scene and no longer canonical.

You personally may quibble and say, "We didn't see him fully regenerate a whole other body on screen," but the point is that in the film, the people who know the most about Godzilla draw this conclusion and act on it. Based on their computer models simulating growth at the rate they observe in the dorsal fin, they believe it would become another Godzilla, and this explains why they don't continue with the type of conventional bombing that could result in countless Godzilla fragments scattering. Re: G2K, you're applying fantasy match logic as if this were real science. It's not. The logic that prevails for the scientists in film is what goes--not what you speculate about how it would work. It works the way the film says it works.

Fantasy match nitpicks don't matter because this is the prevailing theory of the scientists in the film, and it's a big part of what justifies the decision to nuke rather than continue conventional strikes. Not to mention the monumental calamity that just occurred because of a conventional bombing. When you saw how the last attempt went, and now you're hearing that the pieces leftover from that try are probably going to become more Godzillas, it's easy to see why a OHKO that leaves nothing behind and leaves no chance for Shin to retaliate seems necessary.

[Mac Daddy MM]

You personally may quibble and say, "We didn't see him fully regenerate a whole other body on screen," but the point is that in the film, the people who know the most about Godzilla draw this conclusion and act on it.

But they don't act on it. Because the end scenes still utilize techniques that would scatter Shin Godzilla's cells all across the city. He is still hit with TREMENDOUS amounts of firepower from the drone strikes, train bombs and the sheer impacts of the skyscrapers coming down on him. All of those things would scatter cells in one way or another.

Based on their computer models simulating growth at the rate they observe in the dorsal fin, they believe it would become another Godzilla, and this explains why they don't continue with the type of conventional bombing that could result in countless Godzilla fragments scattering.

False. The only real "conventional bombing" that wouldn't result in the spreading of Godzilla fragments would be to utterly vaporize Shin Godzilla in a nuclear blast. It was the Americans acting on this belief more than Japan.

Re: G2K, you're applying fantasy match logic as if this were real science. It's not. The logic that prevails for the scientists in film is what goes--not what you speculate about how it would work. It works the way the film says it works.

'Cept it doesn't. The whole plan to stop Shin Godzilla was just that. To stop him. The race was against the clock to permanently stop him before the nuclear count down ends. This was a big plot point in the film, Jobae. You should try and keep up. :/

If the Japanese scientists were actually convinced THAT was the case and THAT was to happen, the end plan would have never utilized high explosives and drone strikes covering him head-to-toe in explosions. You know... cell scattering.

[Jomei]

But they don't act on it. Because the end scenes still utilize techniques that would scatter Shin Godzilla's cells all across the city. He is still hit with TREMENDOUS amounts of firepower from the drone strikes, train bombs and the sheer impacts of the skyscrapers coming down on him. All of those things would scatter cells in one way or another.

I thought you said regeneration wasn't confirmed? I'm glad you're conceding that you were wrong. By the way, nobody said anything about "cells" scattering. We're talking about pieces of him as would be broken off by only the most powerful non-nuclear weapons. None of the other weapons even scratched him, so drone strikes certainly aren't penetrating his skin. The film doesn't show that regeneration happens from the kind of microscopic particles you're talking about, though. Why that is I can't say, but that's how it works. Fantasy match logic doesn't apply. Still, with that kind of "cell", there'd never have been any hope of stopping him because that sort of "cell" is left behind even without any attack at all. Almost a clever thought, though! Try it out in a fan fiction or something. lol

False. The only real "conventional bombing" that wouldn't result in the spreading of Godzilla fragments would be to utterly vaporize Shin Godzilla in a nuclear blast. It was the Americans acting on this belief more than Japan.

See above. Glad you're seeing my point about the Americans deciding on a nuclear strike to be absolutely certain to prevent propagation, though.

[Mac Daddy MM]

But they don't act on it. Because the end scenes still utilize techniques that would scatter Shin Godzilla's cells all across the city. He is still hit with TREMENDOUS amounts of firepower from the drone strikes, train bombs and the sheer impacts of the skyscrapers coming down on him. All of those things would scatter cells in one way or another.

I thought you said regeneration wasn't confirmed? I'm glad you're conceding that you were wrong.

Regeneration isn't the same as spawning new creatures via severed cell tissue. Every living thing has regeneration (yes, even trees and humans!). We even see Shin Godzilla's evidenced by the lack of a missing spine when the finale starts up.

By the way, nobody said anything about "cells" scattering. We're talking about pieces of him as would be broken off by only the most powerful non-nuclear weapons. None of the other weapons even scratched him, so drone strikes certainly aren't penetrating his skin.

You are aware that even a fly landing on something can cause cells to fall off a body, right? Are you aware how small cells of living creatures are, Jobae?

Try it out in the fantasy matches or in a fan fiction or something. lol

We already are. Not in the fantasy match forum or an actual fantasy match, but this is a fantasy match logistic debate you're partaking in. Maybe not very good, but hey. Shoot for the stars.

See above. Glad you're seeing my point about the Americans deciding on a nuclear strike to be absolutely certain to prevent propagation, though.

So what you're saying is the finale wasn't the "absolutely certain to prevent propagation." I mean, if you're facing something that has the potential to replicate itself via lost tissue, even if its just a theory and never proven even in the film, would you risk it? Would you risk blasting just ONE cell off of it?

If anything, Jobae, the Americans were the ones acting logical.

[Jomei]

Most of your post makes it clear you haven't read and understood what I just wrote. I already addressed the points you're raising in the post you're replying to. Read again.

So what you're saying is the finale wasn't the "absolutely certain to prevent propagation." I mean, if you're facing something that has the potential to replicate itself via lost tissue, even if its just a theory and never proven even in the film, would you risk it? Would you risk blasting just ONE cell off of it?

If anything, Jobae, the Americans were the ones acting logical.

Yeah, you have a point there. But nobody really wants to drop a nuke in Tokyo if it can be avoided, and the Japanese people especially will resist it to the very end. Politically and ethically, the US had to give Japan some time to evacuate citizens if the situation provided any chance at all, and this time--plus the delay negotiated by other allies--allowed Japan to stop Godzilla for the time being. And with Godzilla stopped, the international support for a nuclear strike also wanes.

You're right that there's a certain logic to taking the surefire strategy regardless of the heavy costs, just to be safe, but there are political and ethical concerns that complicate what might appear a simple logical approach. Still, as stated in film, the timer on the strike hasn't stopped--it's just paused until Shin awakens.

[Mac Daddy MM]

Most of your post makes it clear you haven't read and understood what I just wrote. I already addressed the points you're raising in the post you're replying to. It's hilarious because you condescendingly act as if I don't know anything about cells when I just referenced exactly the point you're trying to trip me up with. Read again.

Buuut... you didn't.

allowed Japan to stop Godzilla for the time being. And with Godzilla stopped, the international support for a nuclear strike also wanes.

Or they just made the entire situation worse. The methods used to stop Godzilla would have scattered cells. There is no ifs, ands or buts about it. If the Japanese truly feared Shin Godzilla replicating via lost tissue, they would have never used those techniques. The Japanese did not act accordingly to what they theorized. This gives us two conclusions:

1. Japan doesn't care and would risk making even more Godzillas for the sake of not getting nuked again.
2. Shin Godzilla's replicating process wasn't a proven theory.

You make the call.

it's just paused until Shin awakens.

Or when 2... or 3... or 4... or 5... or 10... or 20... or 30... more Godzillas appear, should the theory have been correct. In which case, congrats Japan. Not only did you just get Tokyo nuked, but your entire country and most likely several neighboring islands and countries.

[Jomei]

Or they just made the entire situation worse. The methods used to stop Godzilla would have scattered cells. There is no ifs, ands or buts about it.

It's so funny that you keep bringing this up. I told you I responded to this, and I told you the post where the response is, and it's only a paragraph to read, but you still can't understand.

Hats off to you, MM, because I truly don't know whether you're experiencing reading comprehension difficulties or you're trolling. Not pursuing it any further in either case.

At least we got one interesting point of discussion out of this. Thinking about it, Japan, in order to save Tokyo and perhaps itself, is keeping the world in a state of uncertainty by preserving Godzilla at Tokyo station. The tensions there, and the fact that the US also knows more than it's letting on and has its own store of G-cells, could actually make a compelling sequel if Anno decides to go that route. An open question: does everyone in the US faction want Godzilla destroyed? Or is he valuable in some way? Room for more satire!

[Mac Daddy MM]

Well... MM Wins. Fatality.

Fine, I'll directly respond.

It's so funny that you keep bringing this up. I told you I responded to this, and I told you the post where the response is, and it's only a paragraph to read, but you still can't understand.

By the way, nobody said anything about "cells" scattering. We're talking about pieces of him as would be broken off by only the most powerful non-nuclear weapons. None of the other weapons even scratched him, so drone strikes certainly aren't penetrating his skin.

Are you saying you believe the only way cells are shed are via "penetrating", Jobae? Do you realize organisms shed skin cells in their sleep? Are you aware that you are shedding skin cells every time you grind you butt on your computer chair or drag you fingers ever so delicately across your keyboard? When you walk barefoot, you leave behind cells. Are you under the impression that Godzilla, and every other giant monster, don't shed cells, skin or otherwise, the same way every other living organism does?

[Jomei]

A swing and a miss. You'll get to the end of that paragraph one day if you keep trying, buddy.

[Mac Daddy MM]

A swing and a miss. You'll get to the end of that paragraph one day if you keep trying, buddy.

How dares you respond before I fix my typo. But then please, re-post your statement so I can accurately respond.