Is Shin Godzilla really the better reboot?

[Loganrules115]

Shin is defs better, by a wide margin.

It has too many of G14's flaws for such an assertion.

That's an extremely vague claim that really requires some expansion.

Before I do so, I would like to point out that both G14 and Shin had some of the best monster action I've seen in a Godzilla film in a very long time. The battle with the MUTO's felt primal and savage, like two animals were fighting to the death. Shin was a creature that behaved without much degree in rhyme or reason, which fits its pseudo-Lovecraftian nature as an incomprehensible beast.

Both of these films, however, utterly fall apart in pacing and character development. We know all too well how mediocre of a protagonist that Ford Brody was. Serizawa did virtually nothing to contribute to the plot (other than exposition), and even less was accomplished by Vivienne and Elle. At times the characters are downright illogical simply to keep the story progressing. The worst example is Ford pressuring his wife to stay in the city rather than evacuate as giant monsters converge in the area. The plan revolving around the nuclear bomb has almost no tension and makes little sense also.

Shin's character flaws are only slightly forgivable. It was clear that the film was going to satirize the Japanese government's incompetence and Japan's place in a postwar world, with the United States on top. Rando Yugichi stands out as a beacon in a sea of idiots. The sequences where nothing is happening in a board room are far too numerous. Unlike the nuclear subplot from G14, the Yashiori Strategy is extremely clever as a tactic against Godzilla. None of the supporting characters have any development (arguably Rando too, as he is the same disgruntled politician at the start and at the end) and there are way too many characters to keep track of, despite their contributing practically nothing.

[Jomei]

Rando Yugichi stands out as a beacon in a sea of idiots.

Well, there's also pink towel man, Best Girl A Hiromi Ogashira, excited PC man Yasuda, the shrewd negotiator Bottle-Don man, and a host of other clever rogues. But again, if the point is to satirize the poor leadership, why is having a lot of stupid characters in charge a flaw?

The sequences where nothing is happening in a board room are far too numerous.

They're really not. There are only a few actual "nothing happening" meeting gags, all very early on. The rest is satirical dialogue and debate that people who got the jokes found funny and you interpreted as "nothing happening."

Unlike the nuclear subplot from G14, the Yashiori Strategy is extremely clever as a tactic against Godzilla. None of the supporting characters have any development (arguably Rando too, as he is the same disgruntled politician at the start and at the end) and there are way too many characters to keep track of, despite their contributing practically nothing.

The central cast was pretty easy to keep track of.

This isn't the type of story where we watch characters develop internally. It's a political satire about Japan responding to unprecedented threats. You should be looking for development in the shape of the government, changes in its approaches, and shifts in how they look at their future--not deep internal conflicts on the individual level, for the most part. The story is about solving big problems affecting many people, not the private concerns of individuals.

[eabaker]

None of the supporting characters have any development (arguably Rando too, as he is the same disgruntled politician at the start and at the end) and there are way too many characters to keep track of, despite their contributing practically nothing.

The central cast was pretty easy to keep track of.

This isn't the type of story where we watch characters develop internally. It's a political satire about Japan responding to unprecedented threats. You should be looking for development in the shape of the government, changes in its approaches, and shifts in how they look at their future--not deep internal conflicts on the individual level, for the most part. The story is about solving big problems affecting many people, not the private concerns of individuals.

Yeah, the major difference between G'14 and Shin, in this regard, is that G'14 sets itself up as a much more traditional Western protagonist-driven narrative, whereas Shin is more fundamentally about collective action and values. G'14 pushes Ford as a hero, but doesn't really have anything significant for him to do; Shin allows Yaguchi to emerge as the most prominent member of the ensemble, but doesn't try to present him as a hero.

[Mac Daddy MM]

The question was whether Shin's reception was really "much more mixed" outside of Japan. Nobody thinks Rotten Tomatoes objectively proves a film's value. Try to follow along.

Insert Image of Rotten Tomato's Certified Fresh Logo Plastered on Shin Godzilla Poster.PNG.GIF.ZIPFile.Docu.Gov

[Jomei]

The question was whether Shin's reception was really "much more mixed" outside of Japan. Nobody thinks Rotten Tomatoes objectively proves a film's value. Try to follow along.

Insert Image of Rotten Tomato's Certified Fresh Logo Plastered on Shin Godzilla Poster.PNG.GIF.ZIPFile.Docu.Gov

I can only point you to the words. I can't read them or understand them for you.

[Mac Daddy MM]

The question was whether Shin's reception was really "much more mixed" outside of Japan. Nobody thinks Rotten Tomatoes objectively proves a film's value. Try to follow along.

Insert Image of Rotten Tomato's Certified Fresh Logo Plastered on Shin Godzilla Poster.PNG.GIF.ZIPFile.Docu.Gov

I can only point you to the words. I can't read them or understand them for you.

Perhaps you should try using a dictionary then, I suppose?

[Jomei]

I can only point you to the words. I can't read them or understand them for you.

Perhaps you should try using a dictionary then, I suppose?

Understanding a sentence is often easier if you read all the words.

[Mac Daddy MM]

I can only point you to the words. I can't read them or understand them for you.

Perhaps you should try using a dictionary then, I suppose?

Understanding a sentence is often easier if you read all the words.

Probably shouldn't try using Rotten Tomatoes as a basis for your argument then.

[Jomei]

Perhaps you should try using a dictionary then, I suppose?

Understanding a sentence is often easier if you read all the words.

Probably shouldn't try using Rotten Tomatoes as a basis for your argument then.

Ok, let's sort this out. I'll approach this under the assumption that you're sincerely misunderstanding and not trolling. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

What do you perceive was my intent in pointing out Shin's Tomato score?

[Mac Daddy MM]

Understanding a sentence is often easier if you read all the words.

Probably shouldn't try using Rotten Tomatoes as a basis for your argument then.

Ok, let's sort this out. I'll approach this under the assumption that you're sincerely misunderstanding and not trolling. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

What do you perceive was my intent in pointing out Shin's Tomato score?

To try and use it as evidence that Shin was just as well received in the US as it was in Japan. Which is something I'm not even against.

[Jomei]

Probably shouldn't try using Rotten Tomatoes as a basis for your argument then.

Ok, let's sort this out. I'll approach this under the assumption that you're sincerely misunderstanding and not trolling. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

What do you perceive was my intent in pointing out Shin's Tomato score?

To try and use it as evidence that Shin was just as well received in the US as it was in Japan. Which is something I'm not even against.

Not quite. Close. I was responding to the claim that its reception was "much more mixed" outside Japan. And the RT score was not the basis but simply one piece of evidence that it was largely well-received. I also cited TK user scores.

So what's the objection?

[Mac Daddy MM]

nd the RT score was not the basis but simply one piece of evidence that it was largely well-received. I

RT scores as evidence of a good movie is usually good for laughs. As evidenced by movies like Revenge of the Sith, Kingdom of the Crystal Skull and Superman Returns being Certified Fresh by them.

[Jomei]

nd the RT score was not the basis but simply one piece of evidence that it was largely well-received. I

RT scores as evidence of a good movie is usually good for laughs.

Haha, we just went over this. You even demonstrated that you know my argument is NOT "good RT score = good movie."

Not responding to this troll attempt anymore. Subtly played, props for wasting a few minutes of my time.

[Zarm]

G'14 pushes Ford as a hero, but doesn't really have anything significant for him to do;

I'd disagree. While the qualifier and definition of 'significant' may vary, even if you discount breaking into the exclusion zone, rescuing the kid on the tram, and escorting the missile with subsequent close encounter (the first and last of which are more to give the audience a point of view of ongoing events rather than for him to impact events, but still give him significant encounters within the film) his participation in the HALO jump, destroying the MUTO eggs, getting the nuke out, and saving San Francisco and all its people is a heck of a lot, and far more than a non-mech-pilot human* protagonist does to influence the overarching plot in almost any Godzilla film.

I see Ford as more of an audience POV protagonist than a traditional hero, but even with the expectations of a hero rather than just a protagonist laid upon him, he definitely delivers in spades in the finale.

*Psychics and mutants sometimes get a bit more bearing, too; hence the 'almost any'.

[Tarbosaurus]

http://jimpluff.tumblr.com/post/1595869 ... file#notes

Oh?

Even here at TK the majority rank it an "A" film, and the vast majority who don't go that far rank it a "B."

There are certain kinds of people in the western fandom, and I will not accurately describe them because doing so is apparently warning-worthy here, who contribute low-quality, high-volume screeching and such that give the superficial impression of greater dissent than there is.

Let Shin into your heart.

My apologies for the confusion, honestly my fault for not clarifying. I was referring to general audience reactions to the movie from domestic (Japan) vs. worldwide as obviously not all folks in Japan are enormous G-fans. Godzilla certainly is a big name in Japan, but it's like saying everyone in the USA is a big Superman fan. If you grabbed a random person whom saw Shin outside of Japan or a random film critic whom wasn't a G-fan already, a good number (not necessarily majority mind you, that would imply poor reception) of reactions were ambivalent or even confused. Speak honestly with me, would the political satire made as much sense to you if you were not
A. Japanese yourself and aware of your country's politics?
B. Knowledgeable in Japanese politics?

Short answer for most would be "no".
http://www.inquisitr.com/3606021/shin-g ... d-reviews/
https://www.theodysseyonline.com/shin-g ... ed-reviews

And being a fan already or not can also make a big difference. I distinctly remember a big contrast in audience reactions when I saw 2014 and then Shin in 2016. In the 2014 showings, completely random people with no clear signs of being G-Fans were applauding during big moments like the two atomic breath firings scenes and by the end there was outright cheering at the final roar. In Shin's showing I went to multiple theaters and each time a good number to even majority of the audience were G-fans with discussions of the film and memorabilia abound. During the city destroying breath sequence the audience did get a lot of "Oos" and "Aahs", but by the end it really wasn't much. When the tail humanoids I will always distinctly remember one man very loudly gasping "What the *****?!" and people agreeing with him. When we all walked out it was very awkward and a lot of folks were really confused by all the board meetings, anime nods, and pacing. And this wasn't a small sample size either, all three times the theaters were pretty big and filled to at least 3/4th capacity

Now this isn't me saying Shin is a bad film, far from it! It feels to me very much like a 2010s version of 1984's or 1954's films. I'd just argue the way it's put together is understandably Japanese-centric; in a way which can make it a bit esoteric to other audiences whom aren't familiar with Japanese politics, culture or are G-Fans. 2014 by comparison can be given the good accusation of having a weaker message than Shin, but the delivery was in a more manageable way for a global audience whom weren't already fans of the franchise. Observe how a majority of the RT reviews (both critic and audience) are made by fans of the franchise already whom will frequently bring up the past films.

tl;dr - My point is from the view of someone outside of Japan whom wasn't already a fan of the series and thus willing to chew on what Shin delved out to get some Big G action on the big screen, Shin was more mixed abroad. Again I am not bashing Shin, I'm just noting observations here.

G'14 pushes Ford as a hero, but doesn't really have anything significant for him to do;

I'd disagree. While the qualifier and definition of 'significant' may vary, even if you discount breaking into the exclusion zone, rescuing the kid on the tram, and escorting the missile with subsequent close encounter (the first and last of which are more to give the audience a point of view of ongoing events rather than for him to impact events, but still give him significant encounters within the film) his participation in the HALO jump, destroying the MUTO eggs, getting the nuke out, and saving San Francisco and all its people is a heck of a lot, and far more than a non-mech-pilot human* protagonist does to influence the overarching plot in almost any Godzilla film.

I see Ford as more of an audience POV protagonist than a traditional hero, but even with the expectations of a hero rather than just a protagonist laid upon him, he definitely delivers in spades in the finale.

*Psychics and mutants sometimes get a bit more bearing, too; hence the 'almost any'.

This post. Ford wasn't great but ATJ is a pretty good actor and played what he got. Coming from a military tradition it's pretty accurate for him to not overtly emote frequently*. I know guys from the unit like that. You can notice he acts more casual and emotional with family then when he's "on the job". Plus the action he was given didn't feel like an over the top action movie.

*He did in some scenes mind you, and for comparison I'd like to point out most of Shin's core cast don't emote much either.

[Jomei]

Basically "The theater I was in for 2014 was more enthused than the one I was in for Shin"

Yet all the data I've seen ranks Shin above 2014 in western fan reactions.

My argument is not that the west liked Shin exactly as much as Japanese audiences. No doubt, Japan was crazy for Shin, whereas in the US it's mostly a hit with hardcore fans. (most of whom rank it an A or a B, at any rate) I'm just pointing out that, contrary to some's claims, the reception was not "much more mixed." It was overall positive.

Your Inquisitr link's framing is highly questionable. It says the reception was mixed, then adds:

Critics Have Mixed Reactions

Reviews of Shin Godzilla have been generally positive, especially by fans. As of this writing, iMDB has a score of 7.7 out of 10, with over 2000 votes. Rotten Tomatoes has an audience score of 81 out of 100, with over 3000 votes.

It then goes on to say critics were more mixed on the film, but the very Rotten Tomatoes site it just referred to gives it an even higher 84%. The writer's opinion seems based on a small sampling of reviews and probably does not reflect the final tally.

To summarize, it would be fair to say Shin's reception was extremely positive in Japan and merely "mostly" positive in the west. While probably less popular than in Japan, Shin is still considered better than the 2014 film basically anywhere you look.

[Tarbosaurus]

Yet all the data I've seen ranks Shin above 2014 in western fan reactions.

Average score for Shin by users
3.6/5 from 6,219 users

Average score for 2014 by users
3.5/5 from 175,456 users

The difference in score (66% positive for 2014, 73% for Shin) actually shows how decisive Shin was. Slightly more people in percentage were positive, but the more negative crowds were substantially more negative than 2014's negative reactions.

And the score is hardly a difference when you consider a vast, vast majority of the RT reviewers for Shin were already big G fans and their sample size is almost 30x smaller. IMDB has very comparable numbers with a similar size disparity. And the longer something is present and has more people seeing it, the more likely it is to get a more negative reaction. Shin wasn't in theaters long and most of those who'd bother to go online and review it where G-fans so we go back to the sample issue I brought up. It's a well known phenomena that of a franchise, often the first week or so is made up of enthusiastic audiences and fans, which is why many franchise films are so heavily front-loaded on release. This is why the ratings almost always go down over time. 2014 was in a much longer, wider release so it had more time to rack up the aftershock's more negative reactions that tend to occur after general consensus forms and repeat showings might reveal flaws. Shin had a smaller release and basically dodged it. Fact it's got a score so close is actually surprising to me.

My argument is not that the west liked Shin exactly as much as Japanese audiences. No doubt, Japan was crazy for Shin, whereas in the US it's mostly a hit with hardcore fans. (most of whom rank it an A or a B, at any rate) I'm just pointing out that, contrary to your claim, the reception was not "much more mixed." It was overall positive.

Which is exactly what I was saying to begin with, though I can understand I was being vague and should have been more direct. I really am not trying to start an argument here it just felt like you were going after me after one line I said.

Mixed is anything less than "mostly positive", where one draws the line varies so this isn't meant to be an exact measure, but in general if it's over 80% it's considered mostly positive to positive.

Again, I was referring to general audiences, not hardcore fans. Of course most fans are going to give Shin a positive reception, it's a new Godzilla film made by talented people, they understand the background, and it's by Toho. I know plenty of well known G-fans don't even consider the 2014 film a "fully legit" Godzilla film because Toho didn't make it. We're dealing with a different group here than the layman I was referring to. If you need proof just look at the reviews. Note how many are positive and make absolutely no mention or connection to the 1954 film or subsequent movies, it's not a big number. Then you'll know how much of it is actually the general audience and how many are G-fans.

Look all I'm saying is you can't take the scores verbatim as there is a sample problem here. Not necessarily bias, but not necessarily indicative of the general audience outside of Japan. Find a random movie-goer and show 10 of them both films. Can you honestly tell me many random passersby with no special love for the franchise would sit through the barrage of room meetings and understand the political satire going on in Shin? This is no bash on Shin's part, it's just an observation that 2014 is the way it is because if it followed the format Shin did I doubt it would have been as widely taken in.

[eabaker]

G'14 pushes Ford as a hero, but doesn't really have anything significant for him to do;

I'd disagree. While the qualifier and definition of 'significant' may vary, even if you discount breaking into the exclusion zone, rescuing the kid on the tram, and escorting the missile with subsequent close encounter (the first and last of which are more to give the audience a point of view of ongoing events rather than for him to impact events, but still give him significant encounters within the film) his participation in the HALO jump, destroying the MUTO eggs, getting the nuke out, and saving San Francisco and all its people is a heck of a lot, and far more than a non-mech-pilot human* protagonist does to influence the overarching plot in almost any Godzilla film.

I see Ford as more of an audience POV protagonist than a traditional hero, but even with the expectations of a hero rather than just a protagonist laid upon him, he definitely delivers in spades in the finale.

*Psychics and mutants sometimes get a bit more bearing, too; hence the 'almost any'.

We're definitely working from different concepts of "significant" here. Ford certainly does lots of plot stuff, and G'14 has a lot more plot than story, so while agree that Ford is significant to what's going on on-screen, I guess I don't feel like a lot of what's going on on-screen after the first act is all that significant. To me, while I enjoy the movie on the whole, there are long chunks of it that just feel like business/complications thrown in to make up for not really having a particular story to tell.

But, y'know, you're a fellow Star Trek: The Motion Picture guy, so I'm gonna concede this argument as a show of fidelity.

[Zarm]

Shin is still considered better than the 2014 film basically anywhere you look.

It's not universally considered the better film in this thread. Opinions are divided.

Regardless, rhe data presented can be used to argue for a higher overall critical rating, possibly even a greater popularity at least within a subset of individuals- as noted above, a smaller subset of individuals. But none of the data posted here in speaks at all to what is considered the better film. That's not what the data is measuring to begin with. And again, better in what way? Better at what? The definition varies from Individual to individual.

Again, Shin was popular; no debate there. It's when the claim shifts to 'better' or 'universally more loved' that the data falters and the contentions come out.

[Tarbosaurus]

*A well made and non-antagonistic post*

In a nutshell, my point is less is Shin a better movie or not, but is it as approachable. If Legendary used Shin's script word for word, scene for scene, would the resulting 2014 film been as or more successful than the one we got when accounting for non-Japanese and non-G-Fan reactions? Between Shin focusing, understandably heavily on the Japanese worldview and politics, it's style, and plot; I have my doubts and haven't been shown experiences or details to speak otherwise. And ultimately I think what makes a reboot successful or not is how approachable by new audiences it is while still respecting the veteran crowds.

A comparison I like to make is how Shin is like a remake to 1984 and the 1954 films whereas 2014 is a remake of the subsequent Showa or Heisei era films. The original, 30th, and 62nd anniversary features I will outright defend have more to say and important messages to give through the scope of the Japanese worldview at the time; be it post-war anxieties, Cold War tensions, or 2010s geopolitics. However it wasn't those films that necessarily made Godzilla a worldwide icon, it was the Vs. movies that followed, campy or serious. To that end I'd gamble 2014 needed to be the way it was (a Vs. film) to achieve the success it did and set the stage for Shin to knock it out of the park. Is it perfect? Oh good God(zilla) no! Has it's own issues for sure. But had the roles been reversed I'm not so sure the world would be as warm to Shin as Japan and the G-fandom was.