Is Shin Godzilla really the better reboot?

[eabaker]

Shin's pacing

Just to highlight the YMMVness of this whole topic, I'll throw out there that I have some pretty big problems with G14's pacing, whereas Shin moves along quite marvelously for me, never dragging or rushing.

[tbeasley]

I'm amazed how many of you guys are experts in the collective mindset of Japanese moviegoers. Even to the extent you can predict how a movie would have performed if released in a different time period!

Not claiming to be an expert in anything just repeating an interesting point I've seen come up before about monster movies in that time period. The Millennium movies didn't perform particularly well, Final Wars and Gamera the Brave (GTB I would say is about as well made as both GMK and Shin) outright bombed, dumb comedies like Big Man Japan and Monster X Strikes Back were DOA. Even big CG US productions like Kong 05 and Cloverfield left little impact.

Again not trying to take anything away from Shin in a MM sort of way, some people were never going to like it for whatever reason, I just thought it was an interesting point to consider.

[SonOfGorgo]

No, Reymart's a G1998 fanboy.

Yeah, pretty much.

[Demon Lord Gira]

A little late to the party, but... Both of you should know better than to flamebait and throw insults at each other, Jomei and MM.

I'm giving both of you a warning for this. Learn to be at least civil and polite to each other, or future shit flinging will be met with double warnings.

[UltramanGoji]

Shin was great in that it brought the Godzilla character to exciting new heights and relevancy in Japan not seen since the 90's.

G14 was great in that it brought Godzilla back to the big screen after the longest hiatus of his career providing a familiar yet safe film to satisfy the fans' appetites.

Do both have have flaws that could be improved upon? I think so, but YMMV. G14 suffers from a pretty uninterested lead actor and the focus shifts away from Godzilla for far too much while Shin has a third act that drags at times. But again, your mileage may vary.

However, both are trying to be completely different things and IMO it makes no sense to put them head-to-head. G14 was a Hollywood blockbuster that sought to redefine the character in the United States with a faithful adaption, while Shin was a very personal movie in that it satirized and commented on recent events in Japan through the lens of a monster movie.

In my eyes, neither is "better". Both are good.

[eabaker]

G14 was great in that it brought Godzilla back to the big screen after the longest hiatus of his career

GFW was released in Japan in December 2004, about 9 years and 5 months prior to G'14's US release, and 9 years and 7 months prior to its Japanese release.

Terror of Mechagodzilla was released in Japan on March 15 of 1975, exactly 9 years and 9 months before RoG's release in Japan.

The longest hiatus of his career is still from the mid-70s through the mid-80s.

[Jomei]

I think this can be retitled as "Your Mileage May Vary: The Thread". What designates as "better" is an opinion and not a tangible fact.

I wonder how many times on this board people have brought up the ultimate subjectivity of art evaluation as if it's a novel point.

Yeah, no kidding personal mileage varies. Do you have any idea how banal this is? How it is the death of discussion?

[morgoth]

Shin was great in that it brought the Godzilla character to exciting new heights and relevancy in Japan not seen since the 90's.

G14 was great in that it brought Godzilla back to the big screen after the longest hiatus of his career providing a familiar yet safe film to satisfy the fans' appetites.

Do both have have flaws that could be improved upon? I think so, but YMMV. G14 suffers from a pretty uninterested lead actor and the focus shifts away from Godzilla for far too much while Shin has a third act that drags at times. But again, your mileage may vary.

However, both are trying to be completely different things and IMO it makes no sense to put them head-to-head. G14 was a Hollywood blockbuster that sought to redefine the character in the United States with a faithful adaption, while Shin was a very personal movie in that it satirized and commented on recent events in Japan through the lens of a monster movie.

In my eyes, neither is "better". Both are good.

Man I love this post!

[eabaker]

I think this can be retitled as "Your Mileage May Vary: The Thread". What designates as "better" is an opinion and not a tangible fact.

I wonder how many times on this board people have brought up the ultimate subjectivity of art evaluation as if it's a novel point.

Yeah, no kidding personal mileage varies. Do you have any idea how banal this is? How it is the death of discussion?

I think this discussion was pretty badly handicapped from the get-go by the particular ambiguity of the question. Does "better reboot" translate to "better movie"? Does it mean the movie that better captures something of the intent or tone of the original? The movie that is in some way more definitively "Godzilla"? The movie that is best positioned to launch an ongoing series? The movie that will do the most to inspire innovative work going forward?

[MrGoji1999]

While I do think Shin is better, I still love both films and both are in my top ten 10, both films are different from each other, wanting to show different sides of Godzilla while remaining faithful to his legacy and they nailed what they ended up being. Iam more happy for what they did rather than rant in a bias way like some user did in the past *cough cough Gojira5400 cough cough". At least we can agree that both (plus Pacific Rim and Kong: Skull Island) are better than the DCEU films (sans Wonder Woman, I haven't seen Justice League yet) and the Bayformers films? Thats my little grain of salt of this subject :p.

[Gawdziller1954]

Shin is defs better, by a wide margin.

[Loganrules115]

Shin is defs better, by a wide margin.

It has too many of G14's flaws for such an assertion.

[Mr_Goji_and_Watch]

Shin: Only Godzilla film to win multiple awards like Best Picture and Best Director

G14: Certified Fresh on Rotten Tomatoes

[Gawdziller1954]

Shin is defs better, by a wide margin.

It has too many of G14's flaws for such an assertion.

Nah.

[Tarbosaurus]

Shin: Only Godzilla film to win multiple awards like Best Picture and Best Director

G14: Certified Fresh on Rotten Tomatoes

Some films can win awards that seem contentious or undeserving in hindsight. Now bear in mind I'm not accusing Shin Godzilla of this, I'm just bringing up the topic to show awards doesn't auto-win the debate of opinion.

Crash (2004): Three Oscars, Three Academy awards, nominated for more
Passion piece and to many, many others, just that.

Avatar (2009): Over seventy three awards, over one hundred and forty more nominations
The biggest box office ever that arguably was a copy-pasted script played over a SFX show.

The Artist (2011): Five Oscars, five more nominations, over ninety other awards and double the nominations
If you had to google this movie to see just what I'm talking about, you have proved my point.

Pearl Harbor (2001): One Oscar, three nominations
Do I even need to say anything? Bay is a great crowd entertainer, like him or not, but... really?

While Shin Godzilla got great reception in Japan, it was much more mixed elsewhere. Don't get me wrong, there are valid reasons one can see Shin was superior to the 2014 film, and vice versa. But honestly I have my doubts that a greatly timed Toho Godzilla film tailor made for Japanese audiences by a talented director and production team with a huge fan-base couldn't get some kind of acclaim. Winning an award isn't an automatic argument ender.

[Jomei]

While Shin Godzilla got great reception in Japan, it was much more mixed elsewhere.

http://jimpluff.tumblr.com/post/1595869 ... file#notes

Oh?

Even here at TK the majority rank it an "A" film, and the vast majority who don't go that far rank it a "B."

There are certain kinds of people in the western fandom, and I will not accurately describe them because doing so is apparently warning-worthy here, who contribute low-quality, high-volume screeching and such that give the superficial impression of greater dissent than there is.

Let Shin into your heart.

[Mac Daddy MM]

Ah, the Rotten Tomatoes argument.

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/star_w ... f_the_sith
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/indian ... tal_skull/
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/superman_returns/

[Jomei]

The question was whether Shin's reception was really "much more mixed" outside of Japan. Nobody thinks Rotten Tomatoes objectively proves a film's value. Try to follow along.

[Zarm]

It's safe to say that neither awards nor aggregate ratings can affect the subjective enjoyment that every individual gets out of a film. The question of a 'better' reboot is a moot and rather pointless one, designed to stir up controversy, since 'better' is a word with unclear definition, and the aspects that make either film 'better' are subjectively defined by each person.

There is no point in pulling out the awards argument- I could very easily say that A Beautiful Mind was a better movie than Fellowship of the Ring because it got the Academy Award, but there are quite a few people (including myself) who would find exactly the opposite to be the case. There's also no point in pulling out rating aggregates. Batman v Superman was highly rated by many of the audiences that saw it, yet there are other people that would call it the worst film since Plan 9 from Outer Space. That's really the whole point. There is no point in pulling out someone else's opinion- whether expressed as an award, a rating, a quote, an anecdote- to try and objectively prove that someone else's subjective enjoyment of something should be higher or lesser, or that one piece of entertainment is better than another. Its value is in how well it entertains, and that is going to be keyed to the individual, not objectively provable to the entire world by some piece of evidentiary support.

For me, Spider-Man 3 is a much better superhero movie than the Dark Knight. There is no amount of evidence that could be presented to convince me otherwise, because I simply enjoy the former far more than I do the latter, which I find stressful and depressing. I can acknowledge its positive attributes, but it's never going to be the better movie for me.

Likewise, I think that Star Trek: The Motion Picture is unequivocally the best of the Star Trek films, hands down, by a mile. It is absolutely better than any of the films that follow it, to my mind, for numerous aspects that I could objectively list and make a case for. But, no amount of evidence that I can present to the rest of the world will convince them to like a movie that they don't like. I may think it's better than the things that they enjoy, and it is better for me, but it clearly is not going to be better for them.

There is no question that a number of people greatly enjoyed Shin Godzilla. There is also no question that a number of people greatly enjoyed Godzilla 2014. Is the former group larger than the latter? Maybe. Does that matter to each individual person's enjoyment of whichever one is their preference? Not at all. It's silly to try and prove that Shin wasn't a hit. It's also just as silly to try and prove that 2014 wasn't a hit. And likewise silly to try and prove that either were without their detractors or individuals that felt that the approach to either film was lacking. l films have their advocates, both have their detractors. Ideally, for some of us, both films are enjoyable. But regardless, neither can be labeled better than the other, except using whatever subjective criteria each individual uses to define 'better.'

Trying to argue that objectively, as if there was one right answer, is really just the stuff of flame-baiting and pointless internet arguments. And while this is the internet, I'd still like to hope that we're better than all that.

In short, please let this thread die the ignominious death it deserves. People are going to like which film they like. This game of one-upsmanship is really pointless, and the arguments are never going to go away, nor the conversation ever be more elevated than the endless, futile cycle that it is now. Thank you.

[eabaker]

Shin is defs better, by a wide margin.

It has too many of G14's flaws for such an assertion.

That's an extremely vague claim that really requires some expansion.