Shin Godzilla exemplifies the hypocrisy of this fandom

For the discussion of Shin Godzilla, the Godzilla anime trilogy and Toho produced and distributed films after 2015. Includes US movies financed by Toho like Detective Pikachu.
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Re: Shin Godzilla exemplifies the hypocrisy of this fandom

Postby Maritonic » Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:19 am

Gojirawars 03 wrote:
Maritonic wrote:All Godzillas are beautiful and should be loved equally by the fandom. Too much hatred and negativity.

I'd say we all have designs that we like more than others, but as far as overall incarnations, no incarnation should be hated. But I'm allowed to prefer Heisei over Showa or Millenium. So it's not like we shouldn't have personal preference. But no incarnation should really be hated. They all do what the story requires of them perfectly. 1954 Godzilla is a perfect metaphor of atomic destruction. 1973 Godzilla was the campy superhero and friend to all mankind. Heisei Godzilla was a wrathful anti-hero, but also a caring father. GMK was a vengeful spirit of WWII. Legendary is a prehistoric alpha predator. Shin was a perfect metaphor for contemporary disasters that have hit Japan, such as Katrina. Filius/Earth is a god who made our planet, our home, to be merely an extension of his own genetic structure. So every Godzilla perfectly encapsulates the role they were made to fill.


^This is something that needs to be said more.

Like, sure, the '54 design may be one of my personal favorites. But man would he be out of place in Godzilla vs. Megalon. Just as I'm not quite sure the '74 design would work for the bleak horrors of Gojira. I think the anime Godzilla is a really different and out there design, but he's perfectly suited for the anime films. They work for their respective narratives. I can't think of one example where they don't.
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Re: Shin Godzilla exemplifies the hypocrisy of this fandom

Postby Jaqua92 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:31 am

Got a question for you all.

So, I've been a fan of Godzilla since I was a kid. Casually, yet somewhat knowledgeable of the monsters. That said, I haven't followed it deeply and I can't identify all the different iterations, Hesei/Showa, etc. I dont know about different eras.

So with this said, I am just wondering...are all the Godzilla films part of the same canon?

And secondly, what is the deal with Shin Godzilla. Ive found him to be the least-Godzilla-like Godzilla out of them all, and found him to be quite offputting. So whats the deal with Shin? Is he cannon? Is he a reborn Godzilla from previous canons?

Thanks!

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Re: Shin Godzilla exemplifies the hypocrisy of this fandom

Postby Zarm » Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:18 am

Jaqua92 wrote:Got a question for you all.

So, I've been a fan of Godzilla since I was a kid. Casually, yet somewhat knowledgeable of the monsters. That said, I haven't followed it deeply and I can't identify all the different iterations, Hesei/Showa, etc. I dont know about different eras.

So with this said, I am just wondering...are all the Godzilla films part of the same canon?

And secondly, what is the deal with Shin Godzilla. Ive found him to be the least-Godzilla-like Godzilla out of them all, and found him to be quite offputting. So whats the deal with Shin? Is he cannon? Is he a reborn Godzilla from previous canons?

Thanks!


Technically, Canon is the list of official films; in that sense, all the Toho Godzilla films are canon. (Not sure about the two American series; they are authorized, but whether they are canon to Toho, someone more knowledgeable than I would have to answer).

However, there is more than one continuity.

The first continuity is Showa, which includes all the Godzilla films from the original 1954 up through Terror of MechaGodzilla (plus the TV show Zone Fighter, translation coming soon, shameless plug). :) Some other films- such as Rodan, Mothra, Atragon, etc.- contian monsters that reappear in Godzilla films, but aren't technically a part of the same continuity; other films form the era, like War of the Gargantuans, Dogora, Space Ameoba, etc. (or non-kaiju sci-fis from Toho) are not in the continuity at all, to the best of my knowledge. (Of course, fan theories as to how they could all fit abound; but to the best of my knowledge, only the Godzilla films themselves and the Zone Fighter tv series make up the official continuity of the showa Godzilla series).

In 1984, the films were rebooted- but *kept the 1954 original.* So, Return of Godzilla (or Godzilla 1985, the American cut) was made as a new direct sequel to 1954's Gojira, and started the Heisei series. That continuity is Gojira (1954), Return of Godzilla, Godzilla vs. Biollante, Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah, Godzilla vs Mothra: Battle for Earth, Godzilla vs. MechaGodzilla II, Godzilla vs. SpaceGodzilla, and Godzilla vs. Destroyah.

The 1998 American Godzilla is its own thing, and has an animated tv spinoff in continuity.

In 1999, the Millenium series started; here, each film was a one-off that was also (sort of) a sequel to the 1954 Gojira. (Some of them heavily retconned the events of that film, so weren't direct sequels, but more of standalone films whose backstory was coincidentally very similar, but not identical, to the 1954 film). So Godzilla 2000, Godzilla vs. Megaguirus, Godzilla, Mothra, King Ghidorah: Giant Monsters All-out Attack, and Godzilla Final Wars are each their own stand-alone continuity, while Godzilla vs. MechaGodzilla and Tokyo S.O.S. are a duology that share a continuity (which kinda-sorta includes a number of showa films in its continuity the way that all these films kinda-sorta include the 1954 in their continuity; i.e. some 'like' that happened in its backstory).

The Legendary Godzilla films (Godzilla 2014, and King of the Monsters in 2019) are their own continuity.

Shin was the first Japanese film to completely break with the original 1954 film entirely. It is a brand new stand-alone continuity that has no relationship to any other film; a complete reboot/alternate universe. The anime films are the same; they share a continuity with each-other, but have no relationship to any other films (though they have several novels explaining their complicated backstory).

So, there are about 11 different Godzilla continuities, if you count the American ones, too. (And some Toho films with close ties to Godzilla that aren't actuall part of any of those continuities, but still introduce monsters that later appeared in them, like Gorosaurus, Baragon, Mothra, Rodan, etc.) Plus one Mothra continuity for her trio of stand-alone films from the 90s, that isn't connected to any actual Godzilla films.

I hope that all makes sense. :)
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Re: Shin Godzilla exemplifies the hypocrisy of this fandom

Postby PopInPicsPresents » Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:49 am

Jaqua92 wrote:Ive found him to be the least-Godzilla-like Godzilla out of them all,


Why do you think that?
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Re: Shin Godzilla exemplifies the hypocrisy of this fandom

Postby Jaqua92 » Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:15 pm

PopInPicsPresents wrote:
Jaqua92 wrote:Ive found him to be the least-Godzilla-like Godzilla out of them all,


Why do you think that?


Honestly? Cause I'm not knowledgeable and he is ugly lolololol

Added in 1 minute 21 seconds:
Zarm wrote:
Jaqua92 wrote:Got a question for you all.

So, I've been a fan of Godzilla since I was a kid. Casually, yet somewhat knowledgeable of the monsters. That said, I haven't followed it deeply and I can't identify all the different iterations, Hesei/Showa, etc. I dont know about different eras.

So with this said, I am just wondering...are all the Godzilla films part of the same canon?

And secondly, what is the deal with Shin Godzilla. Ive found him to be the least-Godzilla-like Godzilla out of them all, and found him to be quite offputting. So whats the deal with Shin? Is he cannon? Is he a reborn Godzilla from previous canons?

Thanks!


Technically, Canon is the list of official films; in that sense, all the Toho Godzilla films are canon. (Not sure about the two American series; they are authorized, but whether they are canon to Toho, someone more knowledgeable than I would have to answer).

However, there is more than one continuity.

The first continuity is Showa, which includes all the Godzilla films from the original 1954 up through Terror of MechaGodzilla (plus the TV show Zone Fighter, translation coming soon, shameless plug). :) Some other films- such as Rodan, Mothra, Atragon, etc.- contian monsters that reappear in Godzilla films, but aren't technically a part of the same continuity; other films form the era, like War of the Gargantuans, Dogora, Space Ameoba, etc. (or non-kaiju sci-fis from Toho) are not in the continuity at all, to the best of my knowledge. (Of course, fan theories as to how they could all fit abound; but to the best of my knowledge, only the Godzilla films themselves and the Zone Fighter tv series make up the official continuity of the showa Godzilla series).

In 1984, the films were rebooted- but *kept the 1954 original.* So, Return of Godzilla (or Godzilla 1985, the American cut) was made as a new direct sequel to 1954's Gojira, and started the Heisei series. That continuity is Gojira (1954), Return of Godzilla, Godzilla vs. Biollante, Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah, Godzilla vs Mothra: Battle for Earth, Godzilla vs. MechaGodzilla II, Godzilla vs. SpaceGodzilla, and Godzilla vs. Destroyah.

The 1998 American Godzilla is its own thing, and has an animated tv spinoff in continuity.

In 1999, the Millenium series started; here, each film was a one-off that was also (sort of) a sequel to the 1954 Gojira. (Some of them heavily retconned the events of that film, so weren't direct sequels, but more of standalone films whose backstory was coincidentally very similar, but not identical, to the 1954 film). So Godzilla 2000, Godzilla vs. Megaguirus, Godzilla, Mothra, King Ghidorah: Giant Monsters All-out Attack, and Godzilla Final Wars are each their own stand-alone continuity, while Godzilla vs. MechaGodzilla and Tokyo S.O.S. are a duology that share a continuity (which kinda-sorta includes a number of showa films in its continuity the way that all these films kinda-sorta include the 1954 in their continuity; i.e. some 'like' that happened in its backstory).

The Legendary Godzilla films (Godzilla 2014, and King of the Monsters in 2019) are their own continuity.

Shin was the first Japanese film to completely break with the original 1954 film entirely. It is a brand new stand-alone continuity that has no relationship to any other film; a complete reboot/alternate universe. The anime films are the same; they share a continuity with each-other, but have no relationship to any other films (though they have several novels explaining their complicated backstory).

So, there are about 11 different Godzilla continuities, if you count the American ones, too. (And some Toho films with close ties to Godzilla that aren't actuall part of any of those continuities, but still introduce monsters that later appeared in them, like Gorosaurus, Baragon, Mothra, Rodan, etc.) Plus one Mothra continuity for her trio of stand-alone films from the 90s, that isn't connected to any actual Godzilla films.

I hope that all makes sense. :)


Wow yes it does. Thank you. I very much appreciate it :)

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Re: Shin Godzilla exemplifies the hypocrisy of this fandom

Postby Zarm » Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:57 pm

My pleasure!
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Re: Shin Godzilla exemplifies the hypocrisy of this fandom

Postby Shoopwoop17 » Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:32 pm

Jaqua92 wrote:
PopInPicsPresents wrote:
Jaqua92 wrote:Ive found him to be the least-Godzilla-like Godzilla out of them all,


Why do you think that?


Honestly? Cause I'm not knowledgeable and he is ugly lolololol



He is meant to be grotesque. Shin Godzilla was meant to be something of a return to Godzilla's roots, those being a dark allegory for something terrible. The original Godzilla has an offputting look, and his skin was meant to look like the burns of victims of nuclear warfare. Since that time, Godzilla has become silly, noble, beautiful even, but those things were not what he originally was. Shin Godzilla is meant to look disgusting because, well, it fits the story that they were telling.

I would like to add that, just because he was meant to be scary, your opinion is still valid. Godzilla is something different to all of us. Some like a hero, some like a villain, and some like an animal. Its all personal preference!
Last edited by Shoopwoop17 on Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Shin Godzilla exemplifies the hypocrisy of this fandom

Postby JAGzilla » Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:10 am

One minor addition to Zarm's explanation: Kong: Skull Island is included in the same continuity as the Legendary Godzilla films.

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Re: Shin Godzilla exemplifies the hypocrisy of this fandom

Postby Zarm » Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:01 am

JAGzilla wrote:One minor addition to Zarm's explanation: Kong: Skull Island is included in the same continuity as the Legendary Godzilla films.


Oh, yeah. Oops! :)
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Re: Shin Godzilla exemplifies the hypocrisy of this fandom

Postby LockBite » Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:37 am

I don’t think there’s any real way to debate the notion that Shin Godzilla would be getting massacred if it were an American production. It’s also important to remember, though, that Toho isn’t just in the country that made these films, it’s the very STUDIO that created Godzilla. In that respect, it would’ve been less offensive even if they’d created Godzilla ‘98. Is that fair? No, but fairness isn’t in the equation.

That logic goes both ways though. Just because Toho made this film, doesn’t mean it stays any truer to Godzilla. This is a bizarre origin story, with nationalist and pro-military overtones that honestly couldn’t be more opposed to much of what Ishiro Honda originally wanted to convey. I’m not making an argument as to whether these qualities are bad in a vacuum, as I believe right-wing films are disproportionately criticized to begin with. But the point is that in many ways this is the antithesis of Godzilla, both in its messages and what it shows regarding the monster itself.

I’m not a Shin fan, but I can see where both sides (yes, the naughty “both sides” word) are coming from.

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Re: Shin Godzilla exemplifies the hypocrisy of this fandom

Postby Zarm » Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:54 am

Honestly, I think the OP was primarily saying 'Why is it you have a problem with this, when that is equally different in other ways.' And I think you hit the nail on the head why; Toho is always going to have more leeway in its reinterpretation as the 'rightful owners'/originators of the property. That isn't fair- and as a G14 fan, I do feel like it would be unjust to call G14 any further from the mark of a Godzilla than Shin is (which, ironically, is a complaint that I think has pretty much gone extinct since the thread started)- but it makes complete sense that for many, an American interpretation (especially after the last one) would be held to a higher standard.

It's also important to remember that everyone's standards of what makes Godzilla himself is personal, subjective, and different; hence whether any particular interpretation matches enough criteria to 'count' will always be in the eye of the beholder. And Godzilla has been many things; nuclear menace (which Shin taps into nicely), superhero/defender (which G14 takes its vibes from), antihero, dream sequence... the original film (and to an extent, vs. Biollante) was about the horror of superweapons, yet it employed a superweapon against him (with the nuance of ensuring it could never be used again, to ensure a lack of proliferation); future films were all about trying to develop new superweapons with just as much destructive potential and deploy them to stop him, portrayed as heroic forward developments of technology (and with the global ramifications completely ignored). Some films are tone-deaf to the original... but completely logical extensions of each-other; of what Godzilla has become (and where the world's fears and concerns lie) at the time. There is no 'one true Godzilla standard' to measure against.

We live in a world where opinion is tied to identity; to fight for your interpretation is to fight for the validity and acceptance of your identity among peers. (Not that is doesn't devolve into much dumber forms from that starting place, oftentimes...). We want there to be a 'right' answer; we want everyone to like what we like and hate what we hate. But in all honesty... this is one of those cases where there really isn't an objective answer on what is an acceptable variation for Godzilla- because there's no single, authoritative version to appeal to in the first place. It really does all come down to what works for the individual fan; what clicks, and what doesn't.
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Re: Shin Godzilla exemplifies the hypocrisy of this fandom

Postby MechaGoji Bro7503 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:43 pm

Zarm wrote:Honestly, I think the OP was primarily saying 'Why is it you have a problem with this, when that is equally different in other ways.' And I think you hit the nail on the head why; Toho is always going to have more leeway in its reinterpretation as the 'rightful owners'/originators of the property. That isn't fair- and as a G14 fan, I do feel like it would be unjust to call G14 any further from the mark of a Godzilla than Shin is (which, ironically, is a complaint that I think has pretty much gone extinct since the thread started)- but it makes complete sense that for many, an American interpretation (especially after the last one) would be held to a higher standard.

It's also important to remember that everyone's standards of what makes Godzilla himself is personal, subjective, and different; hence whether any particular interpretation matches enough criteria to 'count' will always be in the eye of the beholder. And Godzilla has been many things; nuclear menace (which Shin taps into nicely), superhero/defender (which G14 takes its vibes from), antihero, dream sequence... the original film (and to an extent, vs. Biollante) was about the horror of superweapons, yet it employed a superweapon against him (with the nuance of ensuring it could never be used again, to ensure a lack of proliferation); future films were all about trying to develop new superweapons with just as much destructive potential and deploy them to stop him, portrayed as heroic forward developments of technology (and with the global ramifications completely ignored). Some films are tone-deaf to the original... but completely logical extensions of each-other; of what Godzilla has become (and where the world's fears and concerns lie) at the time. There is no 'one true Godzilla standard' to measure against.

We live in a world where opinion is tied to identity; to fight for your interpretation is to fight for the validity and acceptance of your identity among peers. (Not that is doesn't devolve into much dumber forms from that starting place, oftentimes...). We want there to be a 'right' answer; we want everyone to like what we like and hate what we hate. But in all honesty... this is one of those cases where there really isn't an objective answer on what is an acceptable variation for Godzilla- because there's no single, authoritative version to appeal to in the first place. It really does all come down to what works for the individual fan; what clicks, and what doesn't.

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:applause: :applause: :applause: I absolutely agree, there is no "THE Godzilla", since he's always changing and evolving throughout the years.
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Re: Shin Godzilla exemplifies the hypocrisy of this fandom

Postby Jaqua92 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:54 pm

Shoopwoop17 wrote:
Jaqua92 wrote:
PopInPicsPresents wrote:
Why do you think that?


Honestly? Cause I'm not knowledgeable and he is ugly lolololol



He is meant to be grotesque. Shin Godzilla was meant to be something of a return to Godzilla's roots, those being a dark allegory for something terrible. The original Godzilla has an offputting look, and his skin was meant to look like the burns of victims of nuclear warfare. Since that time, Godzilla has become silly, noble, beautiful even, but those things were not what he originally was. Shin Godzilla is meant to look disgusting because, well, it fits the story that they were telling.

I would like to add that, just because he was meant to be scary, your opinion is still valid. Godzilla is something different to all of us. Some like a hero, some like a villain, and some like an animal. Its all personal preference!


Ah makes sense. Thank you, also.

Like I mentioned before, I just didn't understand it, why he looked like that, conceptually.

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Re: Shin Godzilla exemplifies the hypocrisy of this fandom

Postby BrazilianKaiju » Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:59 am

I think that if someone who only watched godzilla's first movie watch Shin Godzilla today, probably this person would find the film PERFECTLY coherent.

People don't recognize Shin because Godzilla has been distancing himself from his original idea, and the image that has become immortalized is different from his "true" concept.

Shin is exactly an adaptation of the first Godzilla. In terms of thematic, appearance, concept, and etc. But of course, it has received some updates.

Sorry for my english.

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Re: Shin Godzilla exemplifies the hypocrisy of this fandom

Postby ApexOversteer » Sat Mar 02, 2019 8:52 pm

Toho is the home of Godzilla, the original band so to speak, any other production will forever be a "cover version."

Now, there are times that cover versions go on to equal (I Shot The Sheriff) or even surpass (Hound Dog) the original version, but they're still covers...
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Re: Shin Godzilla exemplifies the hypocrisy of this fandom

Postby Gojirawars 03 » Fri May 10, 2019 7:58 am

Zarm wrote:Honestly, I think the OP was primarily saying 'Why is it you have a problem with this, when that is equally different in other ways.' And I think you hit the nail on the head why; Toho is always going to have more leeway in its reinterpretation as the 'rightful owners'/originators of the property. That isn't fair- and as a G14 fan, I do feel like it would be unjust to call G14 any further from the mark of a Godzilla than Shin is (which, ironically, is a complaint that I think has pretty much gone extinct since the thread started)- but it makes complete sense that for many, an American interpretation (especially after the last one) would be held to a higher standard.

It's also important to remember that everyone's standards of what makes Godzilla himself is personal, subjective, and different; hence whether any particular interpretation matches enough criteria to 'count' will always be in the eye of the beholder. And Godzilla has been many things; nuclear menace (which Shin taps into nicely), superhero/defender (which G14 takes its vibes from), antihero, dream sequence... the original film (and to an extent, vs. Biollante) was about the horror of superweapons, yet it employed a superweapon against him (with the nuance of ensuring it could never be used again, to ensure a lack of proliferation); future films were all about trying to develop new superweapons with just as much destructive potential and deploy them to stop him, portrayed as heroic forward developments of technology (and with the global ramifications completely ignored). Some films are tone-deaf to the original... but completely logical extensions of each-other; of what Godzilla has become (and where the world's fears and concerns lie) at the time. There is no 'one true Godzilla standard' to measure against.

We live in a world where opinion is tied to identity; to fight for your interpretation is to fight for the validity and acceptance of your identity among peers. (Not that is doesn't devolve into much dumber forms from that starting place, oftentimes...). We want there to be a 'right' answer; we want everyone to like what we like and hate what we hate. But in all honesty... this is one of those cases where there really isn't an objective answer on what is an acceptable variation for Godzilla- because there's no single, authoritative version to appeal to in the first place. It really does all come down to what works for the individual fan; what clicks, and what doesn't.


I think it's because Toho has been known to be able to experiment. I'd love for American films to be able to experiment more with him, but since 1998, it's definitely a lot harder to do so...
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