Shin Godzilla exemplifies the hypocrisy of this fandom

For the discussion of Shin Godzilla, Godzilla -1.0, the anime trilogy, Godzilla Singular Point and Toho produced and distributed films after 2015. Includes US movies financed by Toho like Detective Pikachu.
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Cybermat47
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Re: Shin Godzilla exemplifies the hypocrisy of this fandom

Post by Cybermat47 »

LegendZilla wrote:
MechaGoji Bro7503 wrote:
LegendZilla wrote:There is also a lot of hypocrisy among the fan base when it comes to the complaints that fans generally have over the Heisei series.
Like what?
Complaining about how Godzilla Vs King Ghidorah affects the continuity of the Heisei films, the Showa series gets a free ass by the masses despite its own continuity being as muddled as skreeonk. That is just one example.
Yeah, the Shōwa continuity is pretty muddled, with the stock footage of 1999 DAM tech being used in the 1970s, Godzilla’s behaviour in ETotD, and Godzilla and the second Anguirus being friends all of a sudden (though I guess that that’s more of a plot hole). And GvKG actually makes some sense if you subscribe to the “history was never actually changed” fan theory.
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Re: Shin Godzilla exemplifies the hypocrisy of this fandom

Post by eabaker »

Cybermat47 wrote:
LegendZilla wrote:
MechaGoji Bro7503 wrote: Like what?
Complaining about how Godzilla Vs King Ghidorah affects the continuity of the Heisei films, the Showa series gets a free ass by the masses despite its own continuity being as muddled as skreeonk. That is just one example.
Yeah, the Shōwa continuity is pretty muddled, with the stock footage of 1999 DAM tech being used in the 1970s, Godzilla’s behaviour in ETotD, and Godzilla and the second Anguirus being friends all of a sudden (though I guess that that’s more of a plot hole). And GvKG actually makes some sense if you subscribe to the “history was never actually changed” fan theory.
The difference is that the Heisei series tried to present a coherent continuity, where the Showa series did not prioritize any such concerns. It's not a failure if you're not trying.
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Re: Shin Godzilla exemplifies the hypocrisy of this fandom

Post by kamilleblu »

The first six films have some major connection linking them together. But concern for continuity goes out of the door after Monster Zero. Continuity is virtually nonexistent until Fukuda's latter films and Terror of MechaGodzilla. But those only really connect to one another and can basically be viewed as its own mini-series.

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Re: Shin Godzilla exemplifies the hypocrisy of this fandom

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eabaker wrote:
Cybermat47 wrote:
LegendZilla wrote:
Complaining about how Godzilla Vs King Ghidorah affects the continuity of the Heisei films, the Showa series gets a free ass by the masses despite its own continuity being as muddled as skreeonk. That is just one example.
Yeah, the Shōwa continuity is pretty muddled, with the stock footage of 1999 DAM tech being used in the 1970s, Godzilla’s behaviour in ETotD, and Godzilla and the second Anguirus being friends all of a sudden (though I guess that that’s more of a plot hole). And GvKG actually makes some sense if you subscribe to the “history was never actually changed” fan theory.
The difference is that the Heisei series tried to present a coherent continuity, where the Showa series did not prioritize any such concerns. It's not a failure if you're not trying.
True, but I think that LegendZilla is talking about people who act as though the Shōwa continuity isn’t as muddled as Heisei.
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Re: Shin Godzilla exemplifies the hypocrisy of this fandom

Post by MechaGoji Bro7503 »

LegendZilla wrote:
MechaGoji Bro7503 wrote:
LegendZilla wrote:There is also a lot of hypocrisy among the fan base when it comes to the complaints that fans generally have over the Heisei series.
Like what?
Complaining about how Godzilla Vs King Ghidorah affects the continuity of the Heisei films, the Showa series gets a free ass by the masses despite its own continuity being as muddled as skreeonk. That is just one example.
But Godzilla vs King Ghidorah never affected the continuity of the Heisei series........ it just explained it. It just showed us how the Heisei Godzilla came be while the protagonists and villains realize they never did anything to stop the original from being created. The events of G84 and Bio still happened.
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Re: Shin Godzilla exemplifies the hypocrisy of this fandom

Post by Cybermat47 »

MechaGoji Bro7503 wrote:
LegendZilla wrote:
MechaGoji Bro7503 wrote: Like what?
Complaining about how Godzilla Vs King Ghidorah affects the continuity of the Heisei films, the Showa series gets a free ass by the masses despite its own continuity being as muddled as skreeonk. That is just one example.
But Godzilla vs King Ghidorah never affected the continuity of the Heisei series........ it just explained it. It just showed us how the Heisei Godzilla came be while the protagonists and villains realize they never did anything to stop the original from being created. The events of G84 and Bio still happened.
But the film explains that horrendously. Going by what’s explained in the film alone, you would think that G84 and Biollante never happened. They never say “oh wait a second, we just created the second Godzilla to begin with! We never changed anything!”
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Re: Shin Godzilla exemplifies the hypocrisy of this fandom

Post by MechaGoji Bro7503 »

Cybermat47 wrote:
But the film explains that horrendously. Going by what’s explained in the film alone, you would think that G84 and Biollante never happened. They never say “oh wait a second, we just created the second Godzilla to begin with! We never changed anything!”
Alrighty I'll give you that, I'll have to watch it again to check ;)
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Re: Shin Godzilla exemplifies the hypocrisy of this fandom

Post by goji1986 »

MechaGoji Bro7503 wrote:
Cybermat47 wrote:
But the film explains that horrendously. Going by what’s explained in the film alone, you would think that G84 and Biollante never happened. They never say “oh wait a second, we just created the second Godzilla to begin with! We never changed anything!”
Alrighty I'll give you that, I'll have to watch it again to check ;)
To be fair, a TON of the confusion over the time travel in GvsKG has been perpetuated by the simplification of the script for the international dub and the subtitles on Sony's releases. The whole thing makes sense if you apply the paradox theory behind the original Terminator -- everything that the Futurians did to change the timeline was actually meant to happen and had already occurred, we were just seeing those events play out. It makes your brain hurt, but that's what time paradoxes do. The one plot hole within the context of the film is MechaKG's existence (if Emi had made MKG in the future, brought it back to 1992, and crashed it in the ocean, it would have been found in the future as well...which then begs the question of why they couldn't they fix it up and just send it back again the next time Godzilla appeared in GvsMothra...or why not go back to 1989, 1984, or 1954...or why bother building it in the first place if it already existed??...but then who built it in the first place....[see what I did there? that's a bad, Terminator 2-level time paradox!]). Godzilla vs Mechagodzilla II fills in that plot hole, whether or not it was intended to do so, by showing us that MKG was salvaged and used for MechaG's tech.

To my knowledge, there has never been a precise official translation of the script (fansubs, while often better than what we've been given officially, are not always accurate and should not be taken as gospel), and so until that happens there will always be confusion over this film.
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Re: Shin Godzilla exemplifies the hypocrisy of this fandom

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Is the Japanese script actually clearer about that? I've never heard from someone who understands the original without translation.
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Re: Shin Godzilla exemplifies the hypocrisy of this fandom

Post by GojiraGuy2016 »

Was there ever an attempt of a fan-sub for GODZILLA VS. KING GHIDORAH (1991)? Not that I have am personally aware off.

In my view, history was never changed, too. Furthermore I think that someone due to the time-travel it could be that Godzilla was only 1 specimen, but due to the velocity of the time-flow "duplicated" in all possible "directions" of the space-time-continuum.

Just my wild Star-Trek-influenced-thinking when it comes to time-travel-topics.

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Re: Shin Godzilla exemplifies the hypocrisy of this fandom

Post by goji1986 »

GojiraGuy2016 wrote:Was there ever an attempt of a fan-sub for GODZILLA VS. KING GHIDORAH (1991)? Not that I have am personally aware off
There have been via bootlegs put out by a certain website.
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Re: Shin Godzilla exemplifies the hypocrisy of this fandom

Post by eabaker »

goji1986 wrote:
GojiraGuy2016 wrote:Was there ever an attempt of a fan-sub for GODZILLA VS. KING GHIDORAH (1991)? Not that I have am personally aware off
There have been via bootlegs put out by a certain website.
I first got a subbed bootleg of this movie in late 1993 04 early 1994, and it sure seemed like everybody else participating in the fandom at the time had copies, too.
Last edited by eabaker on Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shin Godzilla exemplifies the hypocrisy of this fandom

Post by GojiraGuy2016 »

@ goji1986
There have been via bootlegs put out by a certain website.
There is?

Please excuse my ignorance, but I only own the official German DVDs + the official Madman R4 release of Australia of GODZILLA VS. KING GHIDORAH. Only the last one features Japanese with subtitles. I want to avoid bootlegs, can you name this place? I am only asking because I got two bootlegs from Hong Kong once and they looked like the original Japanese release, only when I removed the shrink-wrap and put the disc into my player I noticed their bootleg nature, because the DVD had no copyright notice + menu.

@ eabaker
...and it sure seemed like everybody else participating in the fandom at the time had copies, too.
Since I am German I have a different history. Born in 1986, I was introduced to Godzilla by watching the German dub of the US-edition of KING KONG VS. GODZILLA in TV. That was 1992.

Also in 1992 GODZILLA VS. KING GHIDORAH was running briefly in assorted German cinemas + was put on VHS very quickly afterwards. Only dubbed. When I grew older, around 1997/98 when Emmerichs "movie" was on the horizon Godzilla was again on almost all people's minds and TV did re-run a lot of movies. Also after the cinematic run of "Godzilla" (19998) (my personal therapy!). Thanks to G-FAN I learned about the "fan-distribution" circles in the United States and Canada around that time, but I had no access to them. That's a part of my history being a fan.
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Re: Shin Godzilla exemplifies the hypocrisy of this fandom

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GojiraGuy2016 wrote:@ goji1986
There have been via bootlegs put out by a certain website.
There is?

Please excuse my ignorance, but I only own the official German DVDs + the official Madman R4 release of Australia of GODZILLA VS. KING GHIDORAH. Only the last one features Japanese with subtitles. I want to avoid bootlegs, can you name this place? I am only asking because I got two bootlegs from Hong Kong once and they looked like the original Japanese release, only when I removed the shrink-wrap and put the disc into my player I noticed their bootleg nature, because the DVD had no copyright notice + menu.
Due to this forum's rules, I cannot publicly tell you.

Also, while I love to discuss GvsKG's time travel, we are going waaaay off topic from the OP.
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Re: Shin Godzilla exemplifies the hypocrisy of this fandom

Post by LegendZilla »

^Should I create a separate thread trying to explain and defend GVKG?

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Re: Shin Godzilla exemplifies the hypocrisy of this fandom

Post by UltramanGoji »

LegendZilla wrote:^Should I create a separate thread trying to explain and defend GVKG?
Why bother when you can just discuss it in the fucking GVKG discussion thread?

People on these forums need to stop making a topic for every little tiny detail they want to discuss when it could easily just fit into a preexisting one.
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Re: Shin Godzilla exemplifies the hypocrisy of this fandom

Post by GojiraGuy2016 »

Due to this forum's rules, I cannot publicly tell you.
@ goji1986
Okay, then I apologize.

And on topic, for this thread. Fandoms are made of many streams, but some "arguments" did hurt me deeply (similar to GINO from Emmerich), because it showed clearly the lack of knowlegde about Japan, the people, the entertainment-industry and the society.

Godzilla is a Japanese creation and this what some people seem always to forget. This is my individual perception, when I read and did read reviews. I can only say that talking with some Japanese fans in English, they couldn't understand it. This shall be all I want to say about this topic. The thread is already long enough.

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Re: Shin Godzilla exemplifies the hypocrisy of this fandom

Post by Maritonic »

UltramanGoji wrote:
LegendZilla wrote:^Should I create a separate thread trying to explain and defend GVKG?
Why bother when you can just discuss it in the skreeonking GVKG discussion thread?

People on these forums need to stop making a topic for every little tiny detail they want to discuss when it could easily just fit into a preexisting one.
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Re: Shin Godzilla exemplifies the hypocrisy of this fandom

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I can’t agree more with the OP. Cinemassacre is a great example, where James nitpicked things like the shape of legengoji’s jaw, and then didn’t have any problems with Shin. Can you even imagine how much of a shitstorm there would be if Shin Godzilla were a non-JP creation?

This isn’t to say Shin is bad. Truly, this is the first socially relevant G-film in decades, succeeding at provoking controversy through international and domestic criticism. That alone makes the film worth it.

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Re: Shin Godzilla exemplifies the hypocrisy of this fandom

Post by Jatahaxe »

LockBite wrote:I can’t agree more with the OP. Cinemassacre is a great example, where James nitpicked things like the shape of legengoji’s jaw, and then didn’t have any problems with Shin. Can you even imagine how much of a shitstorm there would be if Shin Godzilla were a non-JP creation?
To be fair, AVGN hasn't revisited Shin like he did '14 when he made those comments.

I think my main problem with the OP is the whole thing hinges on the extreme oversimplification of why anyone hated Zilla (hint: it's not just because it was "different", or "not Toho"), coupled with the exaggeration of the amount of people that didn't like 2014. All to make the really flimsy argument that "most" people in this fandom are hypocrites. Of course there are fans that hate 2014 just for being different. I've talked to one or two irl, even, but more extreme versions of those fans hate Shin for the same dumb reasons. And in no way are they common enough to reflect the fandumb, if you'll pardon the expression.

My primary impression of why people hated Zilla was that he screamed and ran from helicopters and died (not just was hurt by, fucking died) from missile fire. And also was a pregnant Mom with a big, dumb Jay Leno chin. Also, on the flipside of the whole "noone has a problem with Shin, cuz it from Toho" argument, if Japan had made Zilla, I think a lot of people would complain that Toho sold out to Hollywood by making Godzilla look more like a Jurassic Park T-Rex.

Matter of fact, when I think about it Shin appears to go out of its way to do some of the stupid things Zilla did, but better.
1. Yes, the legs are digitigrade again, but they've got Heisei thiccness (and I really don't see Heisei's thunder thighs as having any aesthetic musculature, either way they're just grotesque) And what look like "fat rolls" to me look more like the same magma-like texture that adorns G'14's tail.
2. Instead of dying when finally hurt by missiles, he returns fire a thousand fold on the city around him, proceeds to take a leisurely nap. No one cares if some particularly powerful human weaponry can hurt Godzilla, but letting it kill him is crossing the line for sure.
3. Instead of laying bunch of eggs full of dumb babies, he cryptically sprouts creepy, weird humanoid figures from his tail, at the very end of the movie when they can't intrude too much on Godzilla's spotlight. Nobody worth talking about thought asexual reproduction was an inherently bad choice in character design, just that it was used to plug more dumb Jurassic Park BS.

As a footnote, what Godzilla even was in Shin nor where he came from were emphasized strongly enough in the movie nor were they explained in enough detail for anyone to have a legitimate opinion on whether or not they were true to the character. I seldom see complaints about this to begin with.

tl;dr Shin Godzilla is how you do Godzilla "different". Zilla is how not to do Godzilla "different".

A more accurate, less inflammatory thread title would be "Shin Godzilla ousts the hypocrites in this fandom". But that wouldn't have gotten nearly enough replies, now would it've? I admit, I fell pretty hard for it, as the above post demonstrates, but it really did get me thinking.
Last edited by Jatahaxe on Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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