Shin Godzilla exemplifies the hypocrisy of this fandom

[UltramanGoji]

If I recall correctly, JD also highly praised Megaguirus as the best of the Millenium series and thinks DAM is one of the best of the Showa series, if that says anything about his views on the franchise.

I respect JD for basically corralling the Godzilla fandom in the 90's as well as organizing G-FEST but man do I disagree with almost all his views on the series.

[eabaker]

If I recall correctly, JD also highly praised Megaguirus as the best of the Millenium series and thinks DAM is one of the best of the Showa series, if that says anything about his views on the franchise.

I feel like both of those attitudes emphasize how thoroughly nostalgia-driven his interest is.

Which is fine, in and of itself. We're all gonna like what we like. But nobody gets to be the arbiter of true fandom.

[ToxicLove]

The sad fact of the matter is, most Godzilla "scholars" (and I use that term loosely) and a majority of the fans haven't the faintest clue about proper film analysis, critical and comparative commentary or even film theory, let alone film production. Discussions in this fandom permeate about "who is the stronger monster" or furious nostalgic sentiment for the Showa era (an era riddled with just as many production issues.) Shin Godzilla is really the first Godzilla film in a very, very long time that has gotten people talking. Which is a good thing.

Subjectively, one might not like Shin Godzilla, perfectly fine.
Objectively, it's the only film beside 1954 that people and history will ever consider worthwhile, in the annals of cinema, if you will.

[TheSecondComing]

Objectively, it's the only film beside 1954 that people and history will ever consider worthwhile, in the annals of cinema, if you will.

Subjectively, there's extremely little to bolster this opinion, as Shin did not earn widespread attention outside Japan, where it did outstanding. Perhaps in getting a wider DVD release than it did in theaters, there will be more reviews and analysis forthcoming. I expect a heavy dose of "what the hell did they do to Godzilla?" if anything comes at all.

Whatever happens now that Shin is in Walmart and other top level American stores might begin to have an effect in grabbing more eyes here than ever before. What barometers can be used to measure the results of this, I'm not entirely sure. Shin still has yet to cross 10,000 votes, and has an average score of 6.8 at present. King of the Monsters, which had been around for 30 years plus before IMDB ever existed, only has just under 21,000 votes and an average score of 7.5.

[goji1986]

Regarding JD Lees -- from what I can tell, he has been very supportive and enthusiastic about Shin Godzilla. I do agree that his negative attitude towards G14 and Gareth Edwards has been rather frustrating and rather unfounded (at least in his bitter statements regarding Edwards), but otherwise I think what people forget here is that he has never pretended to be a "scholar" nor an "authority" -- he's just a fan!

He has always said that his opinions are his own and he absolutely welcomes and encourages discussion both at GFEST and in the pages of G-Fan.

Even if he considers Gamera a "lesser" kaiju than Godzilla, so what? He has still run plenty of articles about the Gamera series and has invited several Japanese guests such as Noriaki Yuasa and (before Shin G) Shinji Higuchi to GFEST.

And even despite his attitude towards G14, he still published reviews by fans that covered a broad spectrum, from high praise to absolute loathing.

You can disagree with him on many aspects, but you'll be hard pressed to find another "big name" fan who won't shoot you down for expressing a differing opinion.

[ToxicLove]

Outside of Japan, Godzilla will always be a fire-breathing monster that battles other monsters in cheesy, bad rubber suits. That image will never go away, especially to Western audiences. I can't say I'm too concerned (or even interested) in what American audiences have to say: Japan is where the film will thrive and be remembered, rightfully. Godzilla is always Japan's baby, first and foremost. Americans are leftovers to cynically exploit and be exploited for the extra coin that lines Toho's coffers.

Lastly, one should never place faith in IMDB scores (or most IMDB users). Any film website that has The Dark Knight and The Bourne Ultimatum in its top 250 list should be buried with a stake of holly in its heart.

[MechaGoji Bro7503]

Outside of Japan, Godzilla will always be a fire-breathing monster that battles other monsters in cheesy, bad rubber suits. That image will never go away, especially to Western audiences. I can't say I'm too concerned (or even interested) in what American audiences have to say: Japan is where the film will thrive and be remembered, rightfully. Godzilla is always Japan's baby, first and foremost. Americans are leftovers to cynically exploit and be exploited for the extra coin that lines Toho's coffers.

Lastly, one should never place faith in IMDB scores (or most IMDB users). Any film website that has The Dark Knight and The Bourne Ultimatum in its top 250 list should be buried with a stake of holly in its heart.

1000% agree. About the IMDB stuff, that site is terrible.

[erod510]

The sad fact of the matter is, most Godzilla "scholars" (and I use that term loosely) and a majority of the fans haven't the faintest clue about proper film analysis, critical and comparative commentary or even film theory, let alone film production. Discussions in this fandom permeate about "who is the stronger monster" or furious nostalgic sentiment for the Showa era (an era riddled with just as many production issues.) Shin Godzilla is really the first Godzilla film in a very, very long time that has gotten people talking. Which is a good thing.

Anything made by Hideaki Anno will get people talking, lol.

[Mr_Goji_and_Watch]

Didn't just about all the Godzilla 'scholars' not like the movie?

Yeah a lot of people in that crowd think it's "anti-Honda." Somebody thought it had an "evil agenda."

What? Seriously? Who?

I think it was Norman England who said it had an evil agenda lol

Funny thing is weren't they critical of G'14 too? Hell Steve Ryfle called it white washing which was silly. Seems to me the "scholars" seem to criticize everything that isn't Showa

G14 is a really thematically muddled film that paraded it self as the next 54. It makes sense that some people didn't like it.

[morgoth]

I'm curious to see what J.D. Lee's opinion of the movie was. I personally find him a bit off putting, and that's why I stopped subscribing to G-Fan 20 years ago. Like I've said before, While I do find Shin to be a bit over-rated, I am liking it more with each subsequent view (I just watched it again, got my copy early) and I'm growing more fond of G's final design; I still can't appreciate the first two though.

I was really disappointed when he wrote a really nasty section in G-Fan calling Gareth Edwards out as not being "a fan" simply because he couldn't remember the first Godzilla movie he saw which I thought was incredibly unprofessional and uncalled for. Of course some of those older guys hold a grudge against that movie I think because the Takarada scene wasn't kept in.

That's hardly the first time J.D. has concocted some... unusual criticisms of a Godzilla movie that he was perhaps overly prepared to dislike prior to seeing it. For example, in the late 90s he seemed at times to have develop a bit of a chip on his shoulder about fans declaring the Heisei Gamera flicks better than the Heisei Godzilla output, as if it was some kind of disloyalty, so it wasn't much of a surprise when he was very, very harsh about GMK; but I remember him working really hard at trashing death of the girl in the hospital (the idea of a suprise survival being turned into a double-surprise death did not work for him at all), and his singling out the use of backlighting for criticism, after having mentioned lighting in roughly zero other pieces he'd ever written.

Also, while I can definitely tell you the first Godzilla movie I saw in a theater, I'll be damned if I have any idea which was the first one I caught on TV as a toddler. Guess I'm not a real fan.

I remember in November or December '99 after I cancelled my subscription 2 years prior, I broke down and bought an issue just to see if the publication was any better and I regretted it almost instantly. He (Lees) absolutely roasted a fan that said in a letter to the editor that Gamera 2 and 3 alone were better than the entire Heisei Godzilla series. He was saying crap like "You don't know what you're watching." and that classic zinger that these old guard G fans throw around, "You're young yet." I realized I was right to stop subscribing. bczilla91 has a point when he says a lot of these guys don't like anything that isn't Showa.

[Rodan]

Subjectively, there's extremely little to bolster this opinion, as Shin did not earn widespread attention outside Japan, where it did outstanding. Perhaps in getting a wider DVD release than it did in theaters, there will be more reviews and analysis forthcoming. I expect a heavy dose of "what the hell did they do to Godzilla?" if anything comes at all.

Whatever happens now that Shin is in Walmart and other top level American stores might begin to have an effect in grabbing more eyes here than ever before. What barometers can be used to measure the results of this, I'm not entirely sure. Shin still has yet to cross 10,000 votes, and has an average score of 6.8 at present. King of the Monsters, which had been around for 30 years plus before IMDB ever existed, only has just under 21,000 votes and an average score of 7.5.

Reception abroad is hardly a fair measuring stick here, with such a marginalized genre. What critical reactions we got during the film's limited U.S. theatrical run were positive. It took until the 2010s for the original version of Godzilla '54 (now a respectable part of film canon) to be given its critical due, and there are a few other Showa entries still waiting for it.

I doubt it'll ever be canonized, and frankly I don't think it quite deserves to be, but when cinemaphiles come back to view the series as a whole, it's going to be one of the few entries to stand out as being particularly thoughtful and affecting.

It seems like you're also conflating popular buzz with critical reception. They're somewhat related, but for the kind of reception ToxicLove was talking about above, smaller numbers can go further.

[Mechagigan]

Shin is a very socially conscious movie, so it makes sense that it applies most to the society it was made in and criticizes. Vice versa, I wouldn't expect a movie about America's government to make as huge a reactionary splash in Japan, either.

I really doubt a DVD release is going to do anything critically for this movie (especially considering American critics already seemed to quite like the movie...?). If anything, it'll finally be able to have a bit more exposure.

[Godzillian]

The sad fact of the matter is, most Godzilla "scholars" (and I use that term loosely) and a majority of the fans haven't the faintest clue about proper film analysis, critical and comparative commentary or even film theory, let alone film production. Discussions in this fandom permeate about "who is the stronger monster" or furious nostalgic sentiment for the Showa era (an era riddled with just as many production issues.) Shin Godzilla is really the first Godzilla film in a very, very long time that has gotten people talking. Which is a good thing.

Subjectively, one might not like Shin Godzilla, perfectly fine.
Objectively, it's the only film beside 1954 that people and history will ever consider worthwhile, in the annals of cinema, if you will.

My exact thoughts. For people who are "scholars" of a film franchise to not have any idea about film study is pretty embarrassing. That's like being a doctor but not having a medical education.

[eabaker]

The sad fact of the matter is, most Godzilla "scholars" (and I use that term loosely) and a majority of the fans haven't the faintest clue about proper film analysis, critical and comparative commentary or even film theory, let alone film production. Discussions in this fandom permeate about "who is the stronger monster" or furious nostalgic sentiment for the Showa era (an era riddled with just as many production issues.) Shin Godzilla is really the first Godzilla film in a very, very long time that has gotten people talking. Which is a good thing.

Subjectively, one might not like Shin Godzilla, perfectly fine.
Objectively, it's the only film beside 1954 that people and history will ever consider worthwhile, in the annals of cinema, if you will.

My exact thoughts. For people who are "scholars" of a film franchise to not have any idea about film study is pretty embarrassing. That's like being a doctor but not having a medical education.

I see the point you guys are making, and don't wholly disagree with it (back in the Godzilla.com days/my early college days, I used to sometimes obnoxiously bemoan the shortage of "serious" film discourse among G fans); but film is a much, much more subjective, taste-driven topic than medicine. Two surgeons may not agree on the best method for treating a complex medical problem, but they can generally at least agree on whether or not that heart is failing, or how routine procedures should be performed. Filmmakers and film scholars can have fundamental differences of opinion on what the primary goal of the medium even is (for instance: Should a film primarily work to stimulate the intellect or the emotions? Should film spectatorship be a passive process or an active engagement? Should filmmakers strive to employ formal devices to communicate meaning, or should they employ a naturalistic approach and let the events and performances speak for themselves? Which is more inherently involving and immersive: a long unbroken take or a shot-reverse-shot sequence emphasizing a single character's POV?). And for run-of-the-mill film viewers, there's no point in arguing that they shouldn't like the things they like, or dislike the things they dislike; to some degree, "the customer is always right" when it comes to storytelling.

I'm a pretty big fan of Shin (I tend to come down on the side of formalism, and it is an unabashedly formalist work), and I find some of the complaints from fans closed minded and/or juvenile, but I've also seen some perfectly valid criticisms. If you want to delve into social commentary and distinctive visual choices, Shin is likely going to be the G movie for you. But if you're looking to emotionally engage with characters and be drawn into a tightly structured plot, there are a lot of Godzilla movies that "people and history" may never "consider worthwhile" that might have more to offer (off the top of my head, Son of Godzilla may not be a particularly important piece of film history, but it is very well constructed).

[ToxicLove]

I see the point you guys are making, and don't wholly disagree with it (back in the Godzilla.com days/my early college days, I used to sometimes obnoxiously bemoan the shortage of "serious" film discourse among G fans); but film is a much, much more subjective, taste-driven topic than medicine. Two surgeons may not agree on the best method for treating a complex medical problem, but they can generally at least agree on whether or not that heart is failing, or how routine procedures should be performed. Filmmakers and film scholars can have fundamental differences of opinion on what the primary goal of the medium even is (for instance: Should a film primarily work to stimulate the intellect or the emotions? Should film spectatorship be a passive process or an active engagement? Should filmmakers strive to employ formal devices to communicate meaning, or should they employ a naturalistic approach and let the events and performances speak for themselves? Which is more inherently involving and immersive: a long unbroken take or a shot-reverse-shot sequence emphasizing a single character's POV?). And for run-of-the-mill film viewers, there's no point in arguing that they shouldn't like the things they like, or dislike the things they dislike; to some degree, "the customer is always right" when it comes to storytelling.

I'm a pretty big fan of Shin (I tend to come down on the side of formalism, and it is an unabashedly formalist work), and I find some of the complaints from fans closed minded and/or juvenile, but I've also seen some perfectly valid criticisms. If you want to delve into social commentary and distinctive visual choices, Shin is likely going to be the G movie for you. But if you're looking to emotionally engage with characters and be drawn into a tightly structured plot, there are a lot of Godzilla movies that "people and history" may never "consider worthwhile" that might have more to offer (off the top of my head, Son of Godzilla may not be a particularly important piece of film history, but it is very well constructed).

Excellent post, before I begin. While the aim and execution of cinema (as well as the arts in general) is always open to interpretation and personal craftsmanship, one should be able to recognize talent behind and in front of the camera. I may not like the stylistic choices of Gus Van Sant or Lars Von Trier much, but I would be an absolute fool to claim they they have no talent and certainly blind to state that they posses no artistic vision whatsoever. Cinema's goal should be that of Shakespeare: the flawless blending and combining of high art and low art. Shin Godzilla for instance: giant monster movie (low art) political satire and retrospective (high art). Cinema above all should take risks and learn more from well meaning failures instead of mediocre un-challenging tat. The Godzilla franchise has long stagnated and festered in mediocrity. From weak scripts, filming, lighting, editing, acting, pacing, atmosphere, ideas, shot composition, the series has been a largely inoffensive time killer for many generations. The problem is that a lot of people age 35-40 are coming to the defense of a lot of the earlier films, and while there is undoubtedly a kind of charm and nostalgia to a lot of the 60's and 70's flair, the heralding of them as a "forgotten masterpiece's of cinema" whilst unequivocally shitting on the rest of the franchise is absolutely confounding and very embarrassing.

My issue (and this is a VERY presumptuous and arrogant statement and I fully acknowledge so on my part) begins and mainly stays with taste: most people (especially in this fandom) have none. Ive lost everyone with this statement I suppose, so only read on if you want to know more. Now, a lot of people say "I don't need to be a chef to tell him his food stinks!" but a more educated and nuanced person might taste a different dish and pick up on little elements here and there. The customer knows exactly what they want: they want the same thing they got last time, but different. The eternal paradox. They want the comfort of an Applebees or Fridays, but they want the experience of an exotic cuisine there at the same time. I'd welcome valid criticism more openly if it existed a lot more. This is more of an online case, as I've seen little (if any) discussion of such ilk in the real world. Slowly, I think it's beginning to change, and one can always hope that elaboration and discussion might flourish in future years.

[PopInPicsPresents]

My issue (and this is a VERY presumptuous and arrogant statement and I fully acknowledge so on my part) begins and mainly stays with taste: most people (especially in this fandom) have none. Ive lost everyone with this statement I suppose, so only read on if you want to know more. Now, a lot of people say "I don't need to be a chef to tell him his food stinks!" but a more educated and nuanced person might taste a different dish and pick up on little elements here and there. The customer knows exactly what they want: they want the same thing they got last time, but different. The eternal paradox. They want the comfort of an Applebees or Fridays, but they want the experience of an exotic cuisine there at the same time. I'd welcome valid criticism more openly if it existed a lot more. This is more of an online case, as I've seen little (if any) discussion of such ilk in the real world. Slowly, I think it's beginning to change, and one can always hope that elaboration and discussion might flourish in future years.

I would have to agree , at least to an extent. I've seen a handful of people call G14 the best in the franchise, the best action movie, even the best movie they've ever seen. That's just baffling.

[goji89]

For your opinion and tastes it is baffling indeed. I mean what's so wrong about what anyone here or anywhere else thinks about a movie being their greatest? Some of you let your superiority of film knowledge and cinema arts blind you to the fact that everyone has different tastes. So, who cares really? Is it too hard a pill to swallow when someone just says it's my favorite because I liked this and so without having to dissect their viewpoint on a fucking cellular level. Can't just someone say....."Best movie ever" without having to study that specific genre Google the director study the art of cinematography and take a college course on the subject? I know I am the least person to indulge whole heartedly on debates of the matter discussed because I am NEVER serious about anything pertaining to the directors and the subliminal undertones of the subject.

[CyberZilla]

Everyone is going to go into a film with different expectations and viewpoints. Just because one person hated G14 does not prevent someone else from enjoying it, for example. It's all dependent on perspective. Films can and will be interpreted in many many different ways, they have been since the dawn of cinema. They may judge it based on its actual production value, or they may judge it on plot, or characters, or everything. That's what makes it tricky to score a film and decide if it is truly good. Typically we are able to glean such information by going with the general reception, but the point I'm making here is that everyone will interpret and see a film in a different light than others. Plain and simply, that is how film is. Hypocrisy on the fans' part is just because their expectations did not match what Shin Godzilla ended up being.

[SonOfGorgo]

Honestly, I enjoyed both for being unique installments/reboots in the overall series.

[Tyrant_Lizard_King]

To be honest I'm not sure what the point of this thread is anymore. Only very very minute few hate G14 because his design. Far more people seem to hate Shin's design than G14's.