Shin Godzilla exemplifies the hypocrisy of this fandom

[AbelCesar]

A vast of majority of the public disliked the Tristar Godzilla not because of the way it treated the character, but for its own failings as a movie. Going over contemporary reviews, you'll hardly find statements like "this isn't the real Godzilla" or "why is the monster killed by the military?". Critics have consistently agreed that it's a film full of stilted performances, clunky writing and a prime example of "big, dumb and loud" filmmaking. It stands to reason, too, that many adaptations that aren't accurate representations of their source material can be enjoyed based on their owned merits, like The Shining, the Lord of the Rings trilogy, Burton's Batman movies, Minority Report, Jaws, etc. Had Emmerich's Godzilla been a good movie, it would have surely been recognized as such.

[Maritonic]

A vast of majority of the public disliked the Tristar Godzilla not because of the way it treated the character, but for its own failings as a movie. Going over contemporary reviews, you'll hardly find statements like "this isn't the real Godzilla" or "why is the monster killed by the military?". Critics have consistently agreed that it's a film full of stilted performances, clunky writing and a prime example of "big, dumb and loud" filmmaking. It stands to reason, too, that many adaptations that aren't accurate representations of their source material can be enjoyed based on their owned merits, like The Shining, the Lord of the Rings trilogy, Burton's Batman movies, Minority Report, Jaws, etc. Had Emmerich's Godzilla been a good movie, it would have surely been recognized as such.

I wish more people understood this. This is exactly spot on.

[eabaker]

A vast of majority of the public disliked the Tristar Godzilla not because of the way it treated the character, but for its own failings as a movie. Going over contemporary reviews, you'll hardly find statements like "this isn't the real Godzilla" or "why is the monster killed by the military?". Critics have consistently agreed that it's a film full of stilted performances, clunky writing and a prime example of "big, dumb and loud" filmmaking. It stands to reason, too, that many adaptations that aren't accurate representations of their source material can be enjoyed based on their owned merits, like The Shining, the Lord of the Rings trilogy, Burton's Batman movies, Minority Report, Jaws, etc. Had Emmerich's Godzilla been a good movie, it would have surely been recognized as such.

I wish more people understood this. This is exactly spot on.

And even if one does want to focus on the changes made to Godzilla in terms of design and behavior, one should take into account how those changes function in the context of the movie as a whole. G'98's alternate take on Godzilla offered what, in terms of theme or story? Very little.

Shin in some ways radically re-conceived Godzilla, but it did so in service of the story Anno and Higuchi were trying to tell, in order to make a movie relevant to contemporary Japanese audiences.

[Tyrant_Lizard_King]

Shin takes absolutely nothing away from Godzilla. In fact the changes were made to reinforce his typical attributes in a more literal "in your face" context. G14 also alters him slightly but in a more naturalistic sense. He still retains all the typical attributes of the character. G98 on the other hand took everything but the most basic concepts and threw them out the window for seemingly no other reason outside of "just because".

[tbeasley]

I think my main problem with the OP is the whole thing hinges on the extreme oversimplification of why anyone hated Zilla (hint: it's not just because it was "different", or "not Toho"), coupled with the exaggeration of the amount of people that didn't like 2014. All to make the really flimsy argument that "most" people in this fandom are hypocrites. Of course there are fans that hate 2014 just for being different. I've talked to one or two irl, even, but more extreme versions of those fans hate Shin for the same dumb reasons. And in no way are they common enough to reflect the fandumb, if you'll pardon the expression.

My primary impression of why people hated Zilla was that he screamed and ran from helicopters and died (not just was hurt by, fucking died) from missile fire. And also was a pregnant Mom with a big, dumb Jay Leno chin. Also, on the flipside of the whole "noone has a problem with Shin, cuz it from Toho" argument, if Japan had made Zilla, I think a lot of people would complain that Toho sold out to Hollywood by making Godzilla look more like a Jurassic Park T-Rex.

Matter of fact, when I think about it Shin appears to go out of its way to do some of the stupid things Zilla did, but better.
1. Yes, the legs are digitigrade again, but they've got Heisei thiccness (and I really don't see Heisei's thunder thighs as having any aesthetic musculature, either way they're just grotesque) And what look like "fat rolls" to me look more like the same magma-like texture that adorns G'14's tail.
2. Instead of dying when finally hurt by missiles, he returns fire a thousand fold on the city around him, proceeds to take a leisurely nap. No one cares if some particularly powerful human weaponry can hurt Godzilla, but letting it kill him is crossing the line for sure.
3. Instead of laying bunch of eggs full of dumb babies, he cryptically sprouts creepy, weird humanoid figures from his tail, at the very end of the movie when they can't intrude too much on Godzilla's spotlight. Nobody worth talking about thought asexual reproduction was an inherently bad choice in character design, just that it was used to plug more dumb Jurassic Park BS.

As a footnote, what Godzilla even was in Shin nor where he came from were emphasized strongly enough in the movie nor were they explained in enough detail for anyone to have a legitimate opinion on whether or not they were true to the character. I seldom see complaints about this to begin with.

tl;dr Shin Godzilla is how you do Godzilla "different". Zilla is how not to do Godzilla "different".

A more accurate, less inflammatory thread title would be "Shin Godzilla ousts the hypocrites in this fandom". But that wouldn't have gotten nearly enough replies, now would it've? I admit, I fell pretty hard for it, as the above post demonstrates, but it really did get me thinking.

Well said

[Undivided]

I can’t agree more with the OP. Cinemassacre is a great example, where James nitpicked things like the shape of legengoji’s jaw, and then didn’t have any problems with Shin. Can you even imagine how much of a shitstorm there would be if Shin Godzilla were a non-JP creation?

To be fair, AVGN hasn't revisited Shin like he did '14 when he made those comments.

I think my main problem with the OP is the whole thing hinges on the extreme oversimplification of why anyone hated Zilla (hint: it's not just because it was "different", or "not Toho"), coupled with the exaggeration of the amount of people that didn't like 2014. All to make the really flimsy argument that "most" people in this fandom are hypocrites. Of course there are fans that hate 2014 just for being different. I've talked to one or two irl, even, but more extreme versions of those fans hate Shin for the same dumb reasons. And in no way are they common enough to reflect the fandumb, if you'll pardon the expression.

My primary impression of why people hated Zilla was that he screamed and ran from helicopters and died (not just was hurt by, skreeonking died) from missile fire. And also was a pregnant Mom with a big, dumb Jay Leno chin. Also, on the flipside of the whole "noone has a problem with Shin, cuz it from Toho" argument, if Japan had made Zilla, I think a lot of people would complain that Toho sold out to Hollywood by making Godzilla look more like a Jurassic Park T-Rex.

Matter of fact, when I think about it Shin appears to go out of its way to do some of the stupid things Zilla did, but better.
1. Yes, the legs are digitigrade again, but they've got Heisei thiccness (and I really don't see Heisei's thunder thighs as having any aesthetic musculature, either way they're just grotesque) And what look like "fat rolls" to me look more like the same magma-like texture that adorns G'14's tail.
2. Instead of dying when finally hurt by missiles, he returns fire a thousand fold on the city around him, proceeds to take a leisurely nap. No one cares if some particularly powerful human weaponry can hurt Godzilla, but letting it kill him is crossing the line for sure.
3. Instead of laying bunch of eggs full of dumb babies, he cryptically sprouts creepy, weird humanoid figures from his tail, at the very end of the movie when they can't intrude too much on Godzilla's spotlight. Nobody worth talking about thought asexual reproduction was an inherently bad choice in character design, just that it was used to plug more dumb Jurassic Park BS.

As a footnote, what Godzilla even was in Shin nor where he came from were emphasized strongly enough in the movie nor were they explained in enough detail for anyone to have a legitimate opinion on whether or not they were true to the character. I seldom see complaints about this to begin with.

tl;dr Shin Godzilla is how you do Godzilla "different". Zilla is how not to do Godzilla "different".

A more accurate, less inflammatory thread title would be "Shin Godzilla ousts the hypocrites in this fandom". But that wouldn't have gotten nearly enough replies, now would it've? I admit, I fell pretty hard for it, as the above post demonstrates, but it really did get me thinking.

That was humorous...thanks for the laugh and proving OP's point.

[Gawdziller1954]

I can’t agree more with the OP. Cinemassacre is a great example, where James nitpicked things like the shape of legengoji’s jaw, and then didn’t have any problems with Shin. Can you even imagine how much of a shitstorm there would be if Shin Godzilla were a non-JP creation?

To be fair, AVGN hasn't revisited Shin like he did '14 when he made those comments.

I think my main problem with the OP is the whole thing hinges on the extreme oversimplification of why anyone hated Zilla (hint: it's not just because it was "different", or "not Toho"), coupled with the exaggeration of the amount of people that didn't like 2014. All to make the really flimsy argument that "most" people in this fandom are hypocrites. Of course there are fans that hate 2014 just for being different. I've talked to one or two irl, even, but more extreme versions of those fans hate Shin for the same dumb reasons. And in no way are they common enough to reflect the fandumb, if you'll pardon the expression.

My primary impression of why people hated Zilla was that he screamed and ran from helicopters and died (not just was hurt by, skreeonking died) from missile fire. And also was a pregnant Mom with a big, dumb Jay Leno chin. Also, on the flipside of the whole "noone has a problem with Shin, cuz it from Toho" argument, if Japan had made Zilla, I think a lot of people would complain that Toho sold out to Hollywood by making Godzilla look more like a Jurassic Park T-Rex.

Matter of fact, when I think about it Shin appears to go out of its way to do some of the stupid things Zilla did, but better.
1. Yes, the legs are digitigrade again, but they've got Heisei thiccness (and I really don't see Heisei's thunder thighs as having any aesthetic musculature, either way they're just grotesque) And what look like "fat rolls" to me look more like the same magma-like texture that adorns G'14's tail.
2. Instead of dying when finally hurt by missiles, he returns fire a thousand fold on the city around him, proceeds to take a leisurely nap. No one cares if some particularly powerful human weaponry can hurt Godzilla, but letting it kill him is crossing the line for sure.
3. Instead of laying bunch of eggs full of dumb babies, he cryptically sprouts creepy, weird humanoid figures from his tail, at the very end of the movie when they can't intrude too much on Godzilla's spotlight. Nobody worth talking about thought asexual reproduction was an inherently bad choice in character design, just that it was used to plug more dumb Jurassic Park BS.

As a footnote, what Godzilla even was in Shin nor where he came from were emphasized strongly enough in the movie nor were they explained in enough detail for anyone to have a legitimate opinion on whether or not they were true to the character. I seldom see complaints about this to begin with.

tl;dr Shin Godzilla is how you do Godzilla "different". Zilla is how not to do Godzilla "different".

A more accurate, less inflammatory thread title would be "Shin Godzilla ousts the hypocrites in this fandom". But that wouldn't have gotten nearly enough replies, now would it've? I admit, I fell pretty hard for it, as the above post demonstrates, but it really did get me thinking.

That was humorous...thanks for the laugh and proving OP's point.

...And how did he prove the OP's point?

[Mr_Goji_and_Watch]

It's really hypocritical how people deride this film for it's nationalistic themes yet completely ignore how earlier films had much more awful allegories and themes.

[tbeasley]

Oh boy here we go.

[Mr_Goji_and_Watch]

[tbeasley]

Yeah I've seen that and it's embarrassingly stupid.

[OneMillionTomsBC]

Yeah I've seen that and it's embarrassingly stupid.

This whole thread it just that.

[GojiDog]

My biggest issue with G98 was that it never felt like a Godzilla movie. There are similarities, but in the same way that Gojira is similar to Beast from 20,000 Fathoms or It Came From Beneath the Sea. Yeah all the movies are about giant monsters coming from the depths to destroy a city, but that's about where the similarities stop. Once you get passed the concept, there are certain aspects to Gojira that separate it from its contemporaries.

With G98, yes it is about a radioactive monster coming from the ocean to destroy a major city. But even if we look past the design (which to be honest, I was willing to do), did that creature ever feel like Godzilla? I mean did you ever feel like humanity was doomed because this thing existed or that he had the destructive power of a force of nature? As has been pointed out a million times, this monster ran away from the military (which caused more damage than Zilla did) and was killed with relative ease. Once they got it to sit still, they killed it pretty easily. The monster was also motivated by procreation and food, which made it feel more down to Earth and like an animal. Some might say that is an improvement, but for me, I like the idea of Godzilla being this unexplainable force of destruction with no discernable motive most of the time, and when he does have a motive, it is usually to fight, kill, and maybe protect Minilla or in the 70s, the humans too.

I also have my own mental checklist of things I expect out of every version of Godzilla, regardless of how he's portrayed. Comes out of the Ocean? OK, the 98 film had that. Large dorsal spines? OK, the 98 film had that. Atomic Breath? Uh...no. Always aggressively moving forward against his foes? Nope. Just about impervious to modern weapons? Well that's a big no.

I'll also confess the moment when the movie completely lost me. So Godzilla is this MASSIVE creature, unlike anything that anyone has ever seen before. He comes into New York City, stirs up some trouble...and then they lose him. Wait, YOU LOST HIM?!?! How do you lose a creature that size in one of the largest cities in the world?! I could understand if he went back into the ocean, but he somehow managed to disappear within NYC. That always baffled me, and really took away any sense of Godzilla's enormity or commanding presence. How spectacular and large is he if he can hide himself in such a dense and heavily populated area?

And building off the whole "It never felt like Godzilla" idea, what this movie did feel like was an attempt to follow the trends of 90s American cinema. What two movies were really big blockbusters in the years that preceded G98? Jurassic Park and Independence Day. What did Tristar do? They had the creators of Independence Day basically make their own version of Jurassic Park. That's why Godzilla has raptor babies. Because J-P did it. That's why Godzilla is designed to look like the Park T-Rex. And choosing New York as the setting was done not for any other reason beyond Tristar thought they could get the makers of ID4 to capture some of that amazing sense of destruction they had done with the earlier project.

Because they rejected Godzilla's identity and tried to live in the shadow of Jurassic Park and ID4, the film feels like it has no identity. Its just another loud and dumb 90s blockbuster that tries to piggyback off the success of better movies, with Godzilla's name slapped onto it for the sake of some level of marquee value or brand recognition. Had it not been called Godzilla, it would have faded away and been forgotten. In a weird way, our collective animosity towards the film sort of kept it alive.

At the time the Tristar film came out, I was 13 and super excited to see an American Godzilla movie. I was disappointed, and quite honestly, ticked off at the time. So much so that when Phantom Menace came out the next year, I didn't even flinch. Any Star Wars fans that complained about it, I greeted with "Oh please, you jerks don't know what pain is". Since then, I've gotten 7 live action Japanese films, an animated trilogy currently in progress, an American version I enjoyed, and with more on the way. So, yeah, I'm not mad anymore and I look back at the 98 film as a cautionary tale for getting your expectations too high for a movie, and for film makers to know what not to do when adapting an IP.

So to bring it back to Shin Gojira, I loved that movie. Yes there are changes, but like I said at the beginning, Godzilla has always been constantly evolving. I mean I grew up with the Showa films where Godzilla rarely looked the same two movies in a row. In GMK he was possessed by the vengeful souls of those who died in the Pacific War, and had whited out eyes. In the 70s he was a superhero that saved the world from every bad monster you can think of. And in Shin Gojira, he's a genetic abomination. Differences aside though, Shin Gojira still felt like Godzilla. He's unstoppable, he's powerful, imposing, and is destroying his opposition.

This incarnation had the added gimmick of evolution as his appearance changed and his abilities evolved throughout the film. This made him almost impossible to deal with as not only was the government response lethargic at best, but he was constantly changing and getting stronger, so there was no way to adapt to him. through it all, this version felt like hell was unleashed on Earth and no one could stop, and that felt true to Godzilla, which worked in conjunction with all the new stuff that gave the film its identity. To be fair though, the 1st form of Godzilla we see is a bit silly looking, lol.

And there are many other incarnations I am willing to accept as Godzilla. The Hannah Barbera cartoon? Yeah, he's a bad ass superhero that beats the crap out of his enemies. Cheesy and silly show, sure, but it still feels like Godzilla, even with the eye beams. The Marvel comics series? Yeah, he fights with The Avengers, the Champions, The Fantastic Four, and God knows what else, but through it all, he still feels like an aggressive force of nature that is true to the character. And yes, I liked the Legendary Pictures film. If the 98 film took the God out of Godzilla, then this film hammered it right back in, giving the King some of his all time greatest moments, even with the brief amount of screen time.

G98 didn't work for me, not because it was different from other incarnations of the character, but because it didn't feel true to the character, if that makes any sense.

[SonOfGorgo]

My biggest issue with G98 was that it never felt like a Godzilla movie. There are similarities, but in the same way that Gojira is similar to Beast from 20,000 Fathoms or It Came From Beneath the Sea. Yeah all the movies are about giant monsters coming from the depths to destroy a city, but that's about where the similarities stop. Once you get passed the concept, there are certain aspects to Gojira that separate it from its contemporaries.

With G98, yes it is about a radioactive monster coming from the ocean to destroy a major city. But even if we look past the design (which to be honest, I was willing to do), did that creature ever feel like Godzilla? I mean did you ever feel like humanity was doomed because this thing existed or that he had the destructive power of a force of nature? As has been pointed out a million times, this monster ran away from the military (which caused more damage than Zilla did) and was killed with relative ease. Once that got it to sit still, they killed it pretty easily. The monster was also motivated by procreation and food, which made it feel more down to Earth and like an animal. Some might say that is an improvement, but for me, I like the idea of Godzilla being this unexplainable force of destruction with no discernable motive most of the time, and when he does have a motive, it is usually to fight, kill, and maybe protect Minilla or in the 70s, the humans too.

I also have my own mental checklist of things I expect out of every version of Godzilla, regardless of how he's portrayed. Comes out of the Ocean? OK, the 98 film had that. Large dorsal spines? OK, the 98 film had that. Atomic Breath? Uh...no. Always aggressively moving forward against his foes? Nope. Just about impervious to modern weapons? Well that's a big no.

I'll also confess the moment when the movie completely lost me. So Godzilla is this MASSIVE creature, unlike anything that anyone has ever seen before. He comes into New York City, stirs up some trouble...and then they lose him. Wait, YOU LOST HIM?!?! How do you lose a creature that size in one of the largest cities in the world?! I could understand if he went back into the ocean, but he somehow managed to disappear within NYC. That always baffled me, and really took away any sense of Godzilla's enormity or commanding presence. How spectacular and large is he if he can hide himself in such a dense and heavily populated area?

And building off the whole "It never felt like Godzilla" idea, what this movie did feel like was an attempt to follow the trends of 90s American cinema. What two movies were really big blockbusters in the years that preceded G98? Jurassic Park and Independence Day. What did Tristar do? They had the creators of Independence Day basically make their own version of Jurassic Park. That's why Godzilla has raptor babies. Because J-P did it. That's why Godzilla is designed to look like the Park T-Rex. And choosing New York as the setting was done not for any other reason beyond Tristar thought they could get the makers of ID4 to capture some of that amazing sense of destruction they had done with the earlier project.

Because they rejected Godzilla's identity and tried to live in the shadow of Jurassic Park and ID4, the film feels like it has no identity. Its just another loud and dumb 90s blockbuster that tries to piggyback off the success of better movies, with Godzilla's name slapped onto it for the sake of some level of marquee value or brand recognition. Had it not been called Godzilla, it would have faded away and been forgotten. In a weird way, our collective animosity towards the film sort of kept it alive.

At the time the Tristar film came out, I was 13 and super excited to see an American Godzilla movie. I was disappointed, and quite honestly, ticked off at the time. So much so that when Phantom Menace came out the next year, I didn't even flinch. Any Star Wars fans that complained about it, I greeted with "Oh please, you jerks don't know what pain is". Since then, I've gotten 7 live action Japanese films, an animated trilogy currently in progress, an American version I enjoyed, and with more on the way. So, yeah, I'm not mad anymore and I look back at the 98 film as a cautionary tale for getting your expectations too high for a movie, and for film makers to know what not to do when adapting an IP.

So to bring it back to Shin Gojira, I loved that movie. Yes there are changes, but like I said at the beginning, Godzilla has always been constantly evolving. I mean I grew up with the Showa films where Godzilla rarely looked the same two movies in a row. In GMK he was possessed by the vengeful souls of those who died in the Pacific War, and had whited out eyes. In the 70s he was a superhero that saved the world from every bad monster you can think of. And in Shin Gojira, he's a genetic abomination. Differences aside though, Shin Gojira still felt like Godzilla. He's unstoppable, he's powerful, imposing, and is destroying his opposition.

This incarnation had the added gimmick of evolution as his appearance changed and his abilities evolved throughout the film. This made him almost impossible to deal with as not only was the government response lethargic at best, but he was constantly changing and getting stronger, so there was no way to adapt to him. through it all, this version felt like hell was unleashed on Earth and no one could stop, and that felt true to Godzilla, which worked in conjunction with all the new stuff that gave the film its identity. To be fair though, the 1st form of Godzilla we see is a bit silly looking, lol.

And there are many other incarnations I am willing to accept as Godzilla. The Hannah Barbera cartoon? Yeah, he's a bad ass superhero that beats the crap out of his enemies. Cheesy and silly show, sure, but it still feels like Godzilla, even with the eye beams. The Marvel comics series? Yeah, he fights with The Avengers, the Champions, The Fantastic Four, and God knows what else, but through it all, he still feels like an aggressive force of nature that is true to the character. And yes, I liked the Legendary Pictures film. If the 98 film took the God out of Godzilla, then this film hammered it right back in, giving the King some of his all time greatest moments, even with the brief amount of screen time.

G98 didn't work for me, not because it was different from other incarnations of the character, but because it didn't feel true to the character, if that makes any sense.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[Grievous]

Well...I think every fandom contains some kind of hypocrisy...

And I like/I'm happy with every version of Godzilla (apart from
GINO).

I don't really care about his origin, how "fat" he is or what his feet
look like...as long as he (eventually) looks & acts like some version
of the "Classic" Godzilla...then I'm fine.

I thought Shin Gojira was the right way of doing something different
with the character & I respect the filmmakers for the choices they
made.

Shin Gojira was more of a disgusting, deformed aberration...and I
really liked that.

But then...I'm extremely open minded & I'm willing to give any idea
a chance if I find it interesting.

[Gojirawars 03]

Well I like most versions of Godzilla, including 2014 and Shin. So yeah, people who hate 2014 but love Shin might not be hypocrites. I'd just want to hear their arguments for why. I personally love both but prefer Shin, as it felt more unique yet also somehow more traditional.

[Maritonic]

All Godzillas are beautiful and should be loved equally by the fandom. Too much hatred and negativity.

[MechaGoji Bro7503]

All Godzillas are beautiful and should be loved equally by the fandom. Too much hatred and negativity.

Absolutely. They all bring something different and look beautiful side by side.

[Grievous]

All Godzillas are beautiful and should be loved equally by the fandom. Too much hatred and negativity.

Bingo!

Winner Winner Chicken Dinner!

[Gojirawars 03]

All Godzillas are beautiful and should be loved equally by the fandom. Too much hatred and negativity.

I'd say we all have designs that we like more than others, but as far as overall incarnations, no incarnation should be hated. But I'm allowed to prefer Heisei over Showa or Millenium. So it's not like we shouldn't have personal preference. But no incarnation should really be hated. They all do what the story requires of them perfectly. 1954 Godzilla is a perfect metaphor of atomic destruction. 1973 Godzilla was the campy superhero and friend to all mankind. Heisei Godzilla was a wrathful anti-hero, but also a caring father. GMK was a vengeful spirit of WWII. Legendary is a prehistoric alpha predator. Shin was a perfect metaphor for contemporary disasters that have hit Japan, such as Katrina. Filius/Earth is a god who made our planet, our home, to be merely an extension of his own genetic structure. So every Godzilla perfectly encapsulates the role they were made to fill.