Shin Godzilla exemplifies the hypocrisy of this fandom

[ToxicLove]

This topic needs to stay open so we got the occasional embarrassing post to laugh at. A stocks for the internet age, if you will.

[Major sssspielberg!]

Just as an aside, I always understood that Godzilla didnt really need to breathe (heisei at least) because of fission or whatever. I always thought that was cool. But the gills don't really bug me either. I think they look better on Shin. Actually, after having time to soak in both designs (and rub the vinyls on my body at night) I actually have taken more of a liking to Shin. He could kick some ass with them pear legs and that big meaty tail. He'd just need help to shake Zone Fighter's hand I guess.

[Kenpachiro Hirata]

Great topic!
All points are legit and realistic.

Not sure if something like this was discussed already, but... I can only see ShinG as exploitative deconstruction. After all, the whole thing just doesn't work as a conventional film. It's Hideaki Anno and trolling's what he does best. We all took the bait at some point in some way.

[Mr_Goji_and_Watch]

Great topic!
All points are legit and realistic.

Not sure if something like this was discussed already, but... I can only see ShinG as exploitative deconstruction. After all, the whole thing just doesn't work as a conventional film. It's Hideaki Anno and trolling's what he does best. We all took the bait at some point in some way.

Damn, Anno trolled so hard he managed to make the only Japanese Godzilla film to win multiple real awards based on artistic merit.

[Zarm]

Oh, come on- do we really want to start a list of every film that's won Academy Awards and the other films in its year that are better-known and better-loved which didn't? Academy Awards are pretentious nonsense divorced from reality and set out to reward what they deem art. (I dunno, maybe it's different in Japan than in America). I know it's a real feather in the cap for Shin fans, but it's not an actual legitimate measure of anything except the question 'has this film won an academy award,' and not an actual substantive counter to any point made outside of that question.

[Gawdziller1954]

Great topic!
All points are legit and realistic.

Not sure if something like this was discussed already, but... I can only see ShinG as exploitative deconstruction. After all, the whole thing just doesn't work as a conventional film. It's Hideaki Anno and trolling's what he does best. We all took the bait at some point in some way.

Nah, most of IR's points are incorrect/based on personal opinion.

[KingKaiju]

Can't really disagree with any of the points. However, I feel like, had this movie been trash, the fandom would completely highlight every issue that you brought up. While Anno and Higuchi took a lot of liberties, at his core he was still godzilla, and retained all the characteristics that we have associated with the monster, which is what the '98 film missed.

[Kenpachiro Hirata]

I don't think it's trying to be cool. But I (and many others) do think that the design tries a little bit too hard to look scary. That's the problem with pushing it into the extremes; it ends up being unintentionally funny.

Exactly. And another point to the "Anno's trolling" argument.

While Anno and Higuchi took a lot of liberties, at his core he was still godzilla, and retained all the characteristics that we have associated with the monster, which is what the '98 film missed.

The only common similarities between 54 and Shin are their overall shape and nuclear related origins. Shin doesn't represent anything thematically. Even the "Fukushima Daiichi power plant disaster" thing doesn't work because there's way too much destruction, no nuclear danger and no civilian angle. Plus he feels like a mindless machine instead of a living being.

Say whatever you want about GINO98 but at least it had the whole "nature will prevail and find ways to fight back" theme, which feels more like original Gojira than anything in ShinG.

[MechaGoji Bro7503]

I don't think it's trying to be cool. But I (and many others) do think that the design tries a little bit too hard to look scary. That's the problem with pushing it into the extremes; it ends up being unintentionally funny.

Exactly. And another point to the "Anno's trolling" argument.

I'm sorry, but what's with this whole "Anno's trolling" thing? I've seen it pop up so many times.

[KingKaiju]

The only common similarities between 54 and Shin are their overall shape and nuclear related origins. Shin doesn't represent anything thematically. Even the "Fukushima Daiichi power plant disaster" thing doesn't work because there's way too much destruction, no nuclear danger and no civilian angle. Plus he feels like a mindless machine instead of a living being.

Say whatever you want about GINO98 but at least it had the whole "nature will prevail and find ways to fight back" theme, which feels more like original Gojira than anything in ShinG.

I'm strictly talking about core characteristics. He's a huge, bipedal, lumbering, indestructible, radioactive, reptilian monster, who has been mutated/damaged by nuclear energy. He also emits radioactivity. That's basically what makes up the character of Godzilla. What he represents will change with the times. And while Emmerich and Devlin TRIED to update the character, they did so at the cost of his core characteristics, that make Godzilla who he is. It's like how people try to argue that Hugh Jackman doesn't represent Wolverine, because he's a foot taller than the comic book counterpart, and doesn't wear a yellow suit.

[Kenpachiro Hirata]

In a broader, franchise wide sense - yes, I agree. Still, bein' a living and breathing metaphor for humanity's mistakes is what made Gojira interesting in the first place. Without it there would be no franchise whoring that made him a silly antihero monster that most oldschool fans love to this day.

[Cybermat47]

The only common similarities between 54 and Shin are their overall shape and nuclear related origins. Shin doesn't represent anything thematically.Even the "Fukushima Daiichi power plant disaster" thing doesn't work because there's way too much destruction, no nuclear danger and no civilian angle.

That’s because this Godzilla represents the nuclear bomb and 3/11 as a whole, not just Fukushima. Its movements in the water and on land are clearly meant to evoke the tsunami and earthquake, both of which killed 18,000 people between them. The nuclear threat is also quite obvious, as Godzilla’s atomic flame breath is very evocative of the nuclear bomb. It also produces large amounts of radiation that leaves parts of Tokyo uninhabitable, much like the Fukushima meltdowns left the surrounding area uninhabitable.

As for the “no civilians” angle, I couldn’t disagree more. With the exception of a few JSDF personnel, all the main characters are civilians

Plus he feels like a mindless machine instead of a living being.

Perhaps, the the way I see it is that the 2nd and 3rd forms each flop and stumble their way through Tokyo, like a baby learning to walk. The 4th form, meanwhile, moves in a stiff and slow manner, as though each movement causes it pain.

[Jomei]

I can only see ShinG as exploitative deconstruction.

Mmm word soup. I see it more as meta-modern neo-geo-nationalist antireconstructionism.

Still, bein' a living and breathing metaphor for humanity's mistakes is what made Gojira interesting in the first place

People don't watch movies for metaphors. It's a well-crafted film first and foremost, and that's what makes it interesting. I swear, for a lot of people, the first film is just a free-floating metaphor and talking point.

Say whatever you want about GINO98 but at least it had the whole "nature will prevail and find ways to fight back" theme, which feels more like original Gojira than anything in ShinG

Ah, so this is trolling.

[eabaker]

People don't watch movies for metaphors.

Well, people don't watch movies first and foremost for metaphors, but that doesn't mean that metaphorical content - whether the audience is engaged with is consciously or not - can't be fundamental to certain movies' effectiveness.

But, regardless of how essential the specific WW2/nuclear elements of the original film are to its effectiveness - as a movie reflecting Japanese culture in 1954 - Godzilla's survival as a pop culture icon 60+ years later is in large part attributable to his versatility is a symbol. A Godzilla who could only ever represent one thing would not be a Godzilla who could carry more than 30 movies.

[Jomei]

I'm just making sure we don't put the cart ahead of the horse. An allegory or symbol is effective and can enhance a work when everything else is already working. But to say the "metaphor is what made Gojira interesting in the first place" is to severely misplace emphasis.

Not the imagery? The special effects? The creature design? The characters and performances? The music?

Yes, the nuclear war allegory is important to the film. But this extreme focus on Godzilla's symbolic value almost to the exclusion of all else is bizarre. King Kong, for example, while certainly open to various allegorical readings (haha my avatar), generally garners a lot more attention through its formal elements. Some Godzilla fans, though, obsess over the original film's thematic content seemingly as a neurotic self-defense of their love for this oft-maligned character and series. "Godzilla isn't stupid! Don't you know the original film is a deep anti-war metaphor?"

If that weren't annoying enough, this also often manifests in a dogmatism about what other incarnations of the character must be. And thus this rough beast of a thread slouched toward Tokyo.

[KingKaiju]

In a broader, franchise wide sense - yes, I agree. Still, bein' a living and breathing metaphor for humanity's mistakes is what made Gojira interesting in the first place. Without it there would be no franchise whoring that made him a silly antihero monster that most oldschool fans love to this day.

In a sense, he still does, especially this particular portrayal. He is a direct product of the nuclear waste and radioactive material that took the professor's wife, in turn he kept his information about the creature to himself and kept the information from the Japanese government.

[Tomzilla]

There's not much for me to add that hasn't already been discussed. Personally, I don't think a single film can exemplify the hypocrisy of a fandom. Moreover, I reject all notions that the opinions of a vocal few or even the overwhelming majority represents the fandom. Fandoms are neither democracies nor plutocracies, but merely a collection of people with similar yet conflicting interests.

If anything, it can be argued that Shin Godzilla exemplifies the hypocrisy of a select group of fans whose views are open to debate.

[LegendZilla]

There is also a lot of hypocrisy among the fan base when it comes to the complaints that fans generally have over the Heisei series.

[MechaGoji Bro7503]

There is also a lot of hypocrisy among the fan base when it comes to the complaints that fans generally have over the Heisei series.

Like what?

[LegendZilla]

There is also a lot of hypocrisy among the fan base when it comes to the complaints that fans generally have over the Heisei series.

Like what?

Complaining about how Godzilla Vs King Ghidorah affects the continuity of the Heisei films, the Showa series gets a free pass by the masses despite its own continuity being as muddled as fuck. That is just one example.