Say Something Negative About "Shin Gojira"

For the discussion of Shin Godzilla, Godzilla -1.0, the anime trilogy, Godzilla Singular Point and Toho produced and distributed films after 2015. Includes US movies financed by Toho like Detective Pikachu.
Post Reply
User avatar
Desghidorah
G-Grasper
Posts: 1420
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:06 am

Re: Say Something Negative About "Shin Gojira"

Post by Desghidorah »

kamilleblu wrote: France is mentioned twice if I remember correctly. Immediately before and following Operation Yashiori. Germany is mentioned once. China and Russia get mentioned twice. What I gathered from this is that Japan cannot just rely on a single ally all of the time. Thus Cussing's comment, "Japan has grownup enough to have international deals on the sly." Compare that to moments earlier in the film. One of the first responses from a Japanese government official is to ask the United States to handle the matter on Japan's behalf and later the officials cheer the US on when they bomb Godzilla. Shin Godzilla does not come across as anti-US or push for Japan to avoid the US. It seems to advocate a more balanced relationship between the two countries and balanced is a word that would be difficult to use to define US-Japan relations. Shin Godzilla is bigger than Fukushima. It's a reflection on Japanese-US relations as a whole.
Never said it was all about Fukushima or the Tsunami. However the film is very clear that it drew a lot of inspiration from those events from the political talks to the scene design. When you directly lift responses, imagery, and context from a real-life event, that event's context has to be addressed. And actually while I do agree the central narrative of Japan needing to stand more on its own is true, very much so in fact, I do argue it is done through the contextual lens of portraying its current alliance with the US as almost entirely negative. There are legitimate gripes to be made about the USA's treatment of its ally, many I'd strongly argue for in fact on grounds of sociopolitical, economic, and defensive means. However when the filmmakers choose to use times and sites that sort of relationship's benefits far, far outweighed the costs and shifts the blame of tragedies onto unrelated parties, that's when I feel myself rolling my eyes.

For a good comparison piece, I feel this sort of relationship was better addressed in the context of the times by Godzilla (1984). There the prevailing Japanese concern was it was this small nation caught in the crosshairs of two Superpowers who seemed more itching to fight each other than they felt for concern of people in the middle. In the end this political showdown at high noon has Godzilla used like the Beast of the Apocalypse and because of the hair trigger the USSR and USA had on each other, one accident nearly results in a nuclear exchange and even after the pressing warhead issue is resolved, it still releases a horrid monster on Japan because this outside conflict they're caught between revives Godzilla.
kamilleblu wrote: Patterson is characterized as extremely Western and it's used to contrast her with her native Japanese counterparts. I'd like to think there was more to her decision than her Japanese heritage. Based on what we see of her character, I doubt she would have abandoned Japan even if she were another nationality. What would make you think otherwise? By the way, she speaks of Japan as an other. Not something she's part of. That's an important distinction in my opinion. But what would you call this East Asian notion or could you provide a link for further reading on the subject?
But stop and consider this. Why was she Japanese-American? Why not make her another immigrant descent? Why not make her have no ties to Japan at all aside from political? Her character outside of scenes discussing her grandmother and her family's countrymen would be the only things to change. If her being of Japanese descent wasn't a big deal, they wouldn't have put it up front or used the actress they did. Not a matter of doubting her personality, it's a matter of looking into the motivation of why she was designed the way she was. Because that design comes with an expectation and sympathy. Because she is, in some way or form Japanese, she is thus seen as more sympathetic to a Japanese audience than a foreigner and is expected to feel a kinship too them.

I shall round up sources as I can though it might take me a moment (in exam season) to find where they might be posted online that's not behind a paywall. I got in free to a lot of source archives like JSTOR via university log-in access pages you probably couldn't use. It's not well published but think of it as an extension of the close ideals of familial and ancestral ties that are commonplace in the regions. Sometimes it is selective such as "You are from Kanto so you are always of Kanto", sometimes its national. But the notion basically goes that ancestry overrides nationality.
kamilleblu wrote: Those exceptions are the other side of the coin to a fair depiction in my opinion. I might have been more inclined to agree with you if it weren't for those comments or if there were less of them. But there are several instances showing the US in a sympathetic light. And it's not like the film doesn't equally criticize Japan or doesn't make an effort to show there are valid reasons for wanting to use the nuke.
Except not one single character we are shown to root for in the movie is ever shown seriously and lastingly considering the nuke a valid option by parties who have much concern for Japan. Instead it is routinely seen as Japan being thrown under the bus. Every single one is adamantly against it and the valid reasons to use it as only pushed by faceless opponents who are presenting as uncaring about the Japanese plight.
This is the difference to me about being equally critical about the USA and about Japan in the film. While Japan has a bunch of pot shots taken to it, almost every single one is countered by a positive action by the Japanese which is shown as moral and correct, and the slip-ups done are sometimes pinned on foreign powers and pressure.

Let me make a tally chart here for the USA.
Positive
+Patterson gets marines and drones for the finale*
+A few experts help analyze Godzilla's biology
+A few officials feel sympathy for Japan's plight
+Patterson gets the team the file they had on Godzilla*
*(only done with Pattersn's help)

Negatives
-Push the idea to nuke Japan
-Give an ultimatum that the moment Godzilla resumes moving, the nuke comes down regardless of who's in the way
-Destroyed most of the Godzilla samples the research team needed
-Caused the Tokyo fireball with Godzilla retaliating
-Put a dangerous bombing raid ahead of schedule before the civilians could all evacuate
-Created the complicated bureaucracy that resulted in such initial ineptitude
-Tried to cover up Godzilla's existence and resulted in people being unprepared
-Created Godzilla in the first place
-Helped propel Goro Maki to suicide
-Tried to force other foreign powers to keep out
-Doesn't try to stick up for Japan (it's ally) against much less-than-friendly nations who want to nuke it no compromises when others (France) do

That's not exactly as balanced as you say. Again and for the final time, I do not think the movie is Anti-American. All I have is a minor gripe that I felt it was imbalanced and had some unrealistic presentation. You don't need to defend the movie from me, all I got is an opinion.
Last edited by Desghidorah on Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
Image

User avatar
Zarm
E.S.P.Spy
Posts: 4973
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 3:21 pm
Location: USA, East Coast
Contact:

Re: Say Something Negative About "Shin Gojira"

Post by Zarm »

I mean, we could add 'plan to bankroll reconstruction afterward' to the positives list (if I recall correctly). I did feel they got a bit of a good rap in that aspect; they were like "Yeah, for the good of the world, we have to do this, but we'll get everyone out, make it as quick and surgical as possible, and fix things again afterward." It's not like they were just 'Screw Japan- ready, aim, fire!'; they were taking active steps to minimize the impact afterward.

I guess I also didn't feel that they caused the fireball (they were just the attack that happened to succeed against him; Japan was trying to do the same thing) or created him/motivated Goro Maki, though I could have just missed an American connection in the backstory there?

Not trying to debate you, just trying to clarify the points.
KaijuCanuck wrote:It’s part of my secret plan to create a fifth column in the US, pre-emoting our glorious conquest and the creation of the Canadian Empire, upon which the sun will consistently set after less than eight hours of daylight. :ninja:
The grace of God is a greater gift than we can truly fathom; undeserved mercy is a kindness humbling in its sheer scope.

The Zone Fighter campaign is complete, with all episodes subtitled! PM me if you need a link location.

Maranatha!

Rodan
Gotengo Officer
Posts: 1881
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 2:49 pm

Re: Say Something Negative About "Shin Gojira"

Post by Rodan »

One small note: re: Ishihara and Patterson.

Having lived in Japan for more than a year, her English really is pretty good compared to most people who only go through the mandatory school classes! You can tell she's brushed up on her pronunciation for the role.

The issue is just that she isn't supposed to be playing an English learner, but a native speaker who's spent all or most of her life in America, and obviously her speech isn't believable in that context.

That said, it's hardly a large drawback of the film, and plenty of equally eye-rolling pronunciations for supposedly native speakers slip into Hollywood too.

User avatar
Desghidorah
G-Grasper
Posts: 1420
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:06 am

Re: Say Something Negative About "Shin Gojira"

Post by Desghidorah »

Yeah I don't hold her pronunciation against her, she clearly tried the best she could and did well enough. Barely worth much notice for me as I think of it more as a nitpick as they picked an actress who wasn't bilingual so what else could one expect? If you tried to have me speak in Russian I guarantee you even with the best language coach in the world, I'd botch it.
Image

User avatar
Zarm
E.S.P.Spy
Posts: 4973
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 3:21 pm
Location: USA, East Coast
Contact:

Re: Say Something Negative About "Shin Gojira"

Post by Zarm »

One could argue that just means that they shouldn't cast you in a role as a native Russian speaker. :)
KaijuCanuck wrote:It’s part of my secret plan to create a fifth column in the US, pre-emoting our glorious conquest and the creation of the Canadian Empire, upon which the sun will consistently set after less than eight hours of daylight. :ninja:
The grace of God is a greater gift than we can truly fathom; undeserved mercy is a kindness humbling in its sheer scope.

The Zone Fighter campaign is complete, with all episodes subtitled! PM me if you need a link location.

Maranatha!

User avatar
KaijuCanuck
Futurian
Posts: 3451
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:12 pm
Location: The Milky Way

Re: Say Something Negative About "Shin Gojira"

Post by KaijuCanuck »

Rodan wrote:One small note: re: Ishihara and Patterson.

Having lived in Japan for more than a year, her English really is pretty good compared to most people who only go through the mandatory school classes! You can tell she's brushed up on her pronunciation for the role.

The issue is just that she isn't supposed to be playing an English learner, but a native speaker who's spent all or most of her life in America, and obviously her speech isn't believable in that context.

That said, it's hardly a large drawback of the film, and plenty of equally eye-rolling pronunciations for supposedly native speakers slip into Hollywood too.
Yeah, it's distracting for us but bottom line I think they had Japanese audiences in mind with the production, and Japanese audiences probably didn't really notice.
Last edited by KaijuCanuck on Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image

User avatar
LegendZilla
Sazer
Posts: 10373
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:57 am
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: Say Something Negative About "Shin Gojira"

Post by LegendZilla »

KaijuCanuck wrote:
Rodan wrote:One small note: re: Ishihara and Patterson.

Having lived in Japan for more than a year, her English really is pretty good compared to most people who only go through the mandatory school classes! You can tell she's brushed up on her pronunciation for the role.

The issue is just that she isn't supposed to be playing an English learner, but a native speaker who's spent all or most of her life in America, and obviously her speech isn't believable in that context.

That said, it's hardly a large drawback of the film, and plenty of equally eye-rolling pronunciations for supposedly native speakers slip into Hollywood too.
Yeah, it's distracting for us but bottom line I think they had Japanese audiences in mind with the production, and Japanese audiences probably didn't really notice.
That would've worked 20+ years ago when they never anticipated an English-speaking audience at all. Unfortunately we live in a day and age in which every movie or TV show regardless of what country it gets made in is bound to be seen around the world in a short amount of time.

User avatar
KaijuCanuck
Futurian
Posts: 3451
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:12 pm
Location: The Milky Way

Re: Say Something Negative About "Shin Gojira"

Post by KaijuCanuck »

LegendZilla wrote:
KaijuCanuck wrote:
Rodan wrote:One small note: re: Ishihara and Patterson.

Having lived in Japan for more than a year, her English really is pretty good compared to most people who only go through the mandatory school classes! You can tell she's brushed up on her pronunciation for the role.

The issue is just that she isn't supposed to be playing an English learner, but a native speaker who's spent all or most of her life in America, and obviously her speech isn't believable in that context.

That said, it's hardly a large drawback of the film, and plenty of equally eye-rolling pronunciations for supposedly native speakers slip into Hollywood too.
Yeah, it's distracting for us but bottom line I think they had Japanese audiences in mind with the production, and Japanese audiences probably didn't really notice.
That would've worked 20+ years ago when they never anticipated an English-speaking audience at all. Unfortunately we live in a day and age in which every movie or TV show regardless of what country it gets made in is bound to be seen around the world in a short amount of time.
True, but they still have to keep a primary audience in mind. For example, British tv in recent years has become extremely popular in the United States, but those shows, I would argue, aren't bending over backwards to explain the differences of Britain to US audiences - those differences remain to be taken for granted because those shows are still made with a British audience in mind. Just because you are exporting to new markets does not mean you don't give primary service to the one where the majority of your profit is still to come. Shin Godzilla was a huge, mainstream hit in Japan and while yes, it was screened in the West, the business it did was still comparatively light because the audience here is still pretty niche. They simply did not have to worry about losing a Western audience because of one actress' delivery, they knew those fans were pretty much going to come anyways.
Image

User avatar
kamilleblu
G-Grasper
Posts: 1383
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:46 pm

Re: Say Something Negative About "Shin Gojira"

Post by kamilleblu »

Desghidorah wrote:-
I got it. You don't think Shin Godzilla is Anti-American. Sorry for suggesting otherwise.

The US has been responsible for Godzilla since the Honda days. What other nation was testing nuclear weapons in that region of the world at the time? And the United States is aggressive about the situation because they know what Godzilla is capable of and wanted to bring the crisis to a swift end. The destruction of the samples and push for keeping the matter bi-lateral was to maintain exclusive rights to the benefits the sample presented and to hide their involvement in Godzilla's existence. Not exactly un-American behavior. And the US had so much information on Godzilla due to the research of Goro Maki. A scientist who hated Japan for exiling him and leaving his wife to die.

Is the US responsible for Japan's complicated government? Sure, there's the military restrictions. Though I found the rest to be a critique on Japan's obsession with hierarchy and risk aversion. Unless I'm mistaken, that's not something the US is responsible for. It's this that allowed the Godzilla situation to spiral out of control and necessitated the need for greater American involvement. Japan sways the French to help with promises to give them information on Godzilla (nuclear energy). Based on what I found from a brief web search, Japan and France share a close relationship as of late. Especially when it comes to trade and nuclear energy.

Finally, as Zarm mentioned, Japan was going to get rebuilt after Godzilla was destroyed. Since the United States was leading the charge for everything else, I assume they were going to handle this as well. And that fits right in with how the US usually rebuilds the regions they have a role in wrecking. The US is never outright antagonistic. I think the message Anno was trying to convey is that when you're at the mercy of another there will be times when what they push will not be sensitive to your needs or interests. Japan got what it wanted in the end. But, as Yaguchi says in the final moments, it comes with an incredible amount of responsibility.

I assume Patterson is Japanese because that's far less troublesome than dealing with a foreign actress and plays better to a domestic audience. Does her Japanese blood factor into her decision-making? Probably. But I imagine, regardless of ethnicity and nationality, anyone who worked as long with the Japanese research time as she did would be more sympathetic than someone completely removed from ground zero. And, whenever convenient, I would still like to see the motherland/nationality research.

tenup
G-Force Personnel
Posts: 850
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2010 6:25 am
Location: Bronx Ny

Re: Say Something Negative About "Shin Gojira"

Post by tenup »

Mr_Goji_and_Watch wrote:It set the bar too damn high.
Very much so. If I were to have anything negative to say about Shin is that it could've been way more nightmarish.

User avatar
Spuro
Keizer
Posts: 9545
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:34 pm
Location: Monster Island

Re: Say Something Negative About "Shin Gojira"

Post by Spuro »

kamilleblu wrote:What other nation was testing nuclear weapons in that region of the world at the time?
France, according to a certain movie. :D
eabaker wrote: You can't parse duende.
Breakdown wrote: HP Lovecraft's cat should be the ultimate villain of the MonsterVerse.

User avatar
Monster X
G-Force Personnel
Posts: 677
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2016 10:33 am

Re: Say Something Negative About "Shin Gojira"

Post by Monster X »

The sky is the wrong shade of blue in some shots.
Image

User avatar
HeiseiGodzilla117
Xilien Halfling
Posts: 6020
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 6:20 pm

Re: Say Something Negative About "Shin Gojira"

Post by HeiseiGodzilla117 »

Kaiju-King42 wrote:
kamilleblu wrote:What other nation was testing nuclear weapons in that region of the world at the time?
France, according to a certain movie. :D


France did. French Polynesian nuclear tests in the 60s. That's what the 98 movie referred to.
Spirit Ghidorah 2010 wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2023 4:54 pm Anno-san pleasures me more than Yamasaki-san.

User avatar
Spuro
Keizer
Posts: 9545
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:34 pm
Location: Monster Island

Re: Say Something Negative About "Shin Gojira"

Post by Spuro »

HeiseiGodzilla117 wrote:
Kaiju-King42 wrote:
kamilleblu wrote:What other nation was testing nuclear weapons in that region of the world at the time?
France, according to a certain movie. :D


France did. French Polynesian nuclear tests in the 60s. That's what the 98 movie referred to.
Huh. Well, shit.
eabaker wrote: You can't parse duende.
Breakdown wrote: HP Lovecraft's cat should be the ultimate villain of the MonsterVerse.

latinothor
GPN Volunteer
Posts: 103
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 8:25 am

Re: Say Something Negative About "Shin Gojira"

Post by latinothor »

Bear with me, I will try and put my thoughts in very simplistic terms. Scattered as they may be.

I'd like to start that it is not my intention to bash the movie. IMO the movie is a solid B- as a Godzilla movie. As a Kaiju movie, probably less (Much of its value as a Kaiju movie is the so called "allegory", take that out and take out the name Godzilla, and it's a pretty subpar movie), and as a general movie it's probably a C-, borderline D.

My personal dislike of the movie, is that it tried too hard the "allegory" side on a topic that is very much relevant to the Japanese, but not the the general audience worldwide IMO. I am as interested in Japanese politics as I am of Iceland's politics, which is zero interest.

I would have totally loved it if it was a remake of the original Gojira (Which I thought it would be), and the allegory to the atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

The original Gojira is a masterpiece, and the allegory works tremendously. It is a subject of Worldwide interest and concern. Unlike Japan's bureaucracy which Shin Gojira made a subject of.

Other allegories have been tried, and to me it borderlines in ridiculousness. It worked once, and that's where it should be left at. Godzilla is a Kaiju movie after all. Like I've said before to fans that put the allegory side on high regards is, if I wanted to learn more of Japanese bureaucracy, or the radiation consequences from the Fukushima tragedy, I would seriously watch a documentary or read a book about it. Now, I know Shin Godzilla wasn't trying to educate people on the subject, it was more of a satire, but still it like it was a weak subject to choose from, and it felt forced.

Sequels to a Godzilla movie with an allegory are not possible. And if made, it would feel even more forced down our throats IMO of course.

The Patterson's accent didn't bother me. It did slightly the first time I heard it, but I moved on the subject quickly.

Bottom line, it's a decent Godzilla movie for what it tried to do.

User avatar
cloverfan98
Site Staff
Site Staff
Posts: 1363
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:55 am

Re: Say Something Negative About "Shin Gojira"

Post by cloverfan98 »

I really wish we had seen more people die. Morbid I know but aside from the family in the building that the 2nd form knocks over, we never get to watch anyone die either directly or indirectly from Shin Godzilla's rampage. Considering all the radioactive energy that Shin puts out I would of liked to see people suffering from radiation poising or something. This film is as close as we'll get to a full on remake of 54 and that film didn't shy away from showing people die at Godzilla's claws or feet.

User avatar
LegendZilla
Sazer
Posts: 10373
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:57 am
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: Say Something Negative About "Shin Gojira"

Post by LegendZilla »

cloverfan98 wrote:This film is as close as we'll get to a full on remake of 54 and that film didn't shy away from showing people die at Godzilla's claws or feet.
How can ‘84 be considered any less of a remake?
Last edited by LegendZilla on Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Mr_Goji_and_Watch
EDF Instructor
Posts: 2711
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 4:34 pm
Location: キノプレックス
Contact:

Re: Say Something Negative About "Shin Gojira"

Post by Mr_Goji_and_Watch »

LegendZilla wrote: How can ‘84 be considered any less of a remake.
The theme is basically "the cold war sucks :(" and it's left at that, there's a reason it never resonated with audiences.
Moogabunga wrote:Ive said it before and I'll gladly say it again, this is going to be the best Godzilla film ever and more importantly, its going to be the film that truly makes Godzilla mainstream (and cool)
SoggyNoodles2016 wrote:I'm glad to be a fake fan.

User avatar
Maritonic
Admin | Forum Manager
Admin | Forum Manager
Posts: 6680
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2016 6:26 am

Re: Say Something Negative About "Shin Gojira"

Post by Maritonic »

LegendZilla wrote:
cloverfan98 wrote:This film is as close as we'll get to a full on remake of 54 and that film didn't shy away from showing people die at Godzilla's claws or feet.
How can ‘84 be considered any less of a remake?
Narratives and themes aside, '84 serves as a sequel to '54 where as Shin restarts fresh. So that's one thing.

I love '84 100%, but Shin felt like more of a successor to '54 than '84 did.
Image
Any issues, please feel free to private message me or e-mail me at MaritonicTK@gmail.com.
Bruno says we're not supposed to hate.
MechaGoji Bro7503 wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:24 pm Don't go to a friend's wedding, send him 100 copies of Gamera vs Zigra instead. Be a man.

User avatar
Zarm
E.S.P.Spy
Posts: 4973
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 3:21 pm
Location: USA, East Coast
Contact:

Re: Say Something Negative About "Shin Gojira"

Post by Zarm »

Maritonic wrote:
LegendZilla wrote:
cloverfan98 wrote:This film is as close as we'll get to a full on remake of 54 and that film didn't shy away from showing people die at Godzilla's claws or feet.
How can ‘84 be considered any less of a remake?
Narratives and themes aside, '84 serves as a sequel to '54 where as Shin restarts fresh. So that's one thing.

I love '84 100%, but Shin felt like more of a successor to '54 than '84 did.
Plus- and I know I harp on this whenever I can- but Shin actually follows the basic plot and narrative structure of the '54 film, hitting the major story beats but building a new story around them, whereas '84 doesn't have nearly that level of direct connection.
KaijuCanuck wrote:It’s part of my secret plan to create a fifth column in the US, pre-emoting our glorious conquest and the creation of the Canadian Empire, upon which the sun will consistently set after less than eight hours of daylight. :ninja:
The grace of God is a greater gift than we can truly fathom; undeserved mercy is a kindness humbling in its sheer scope.

The Zone Fighter campaign is complete, with all episodes subtitled! PM me if you need a link location.

Maranatha!

Post Reply