Toho Kingdom

PitchBlackProgress wrote:I think it’s fun and well acted
The only people that really hate this one are 15 year olds..

I always thought this one felt kinda........ well it really felt like Ishiro Honda made it ya know? Obviously he did direct it but it's his style that really elevates this film for me. It's definitely not one of my favorites but if you put Revenge on a table with vs Mothra '92 and vs Spacegodzilla, I'd definitely pick Revenge to watch.

Zarm wrote:My board game group

I wish I had a board game group...

Can believe this will be 50 years old soon.

I’m still waiting for this one to receive the praise it deserves.

PitchBlackProgress wrote:I’m still waiting for this one to receive the praise it deserves.

Well, a few of us on this board to come to its defense from time to time.

PitchBlackProgress wrote:I’m still waiting for this one to receive the praise it deserves.

Okay, no snark here, real talk. I want you to explain to me, in your own words, what makes this movie worthy of praise OTHER THAN "it gets ripped on all the time and it's not as bad as everyone says". To be crystal clear: not being sarcastic.

Because I've rewatched this sober, drunk, clear minded, angry, happy, trying to love it, trying to hate it, trying to see all the good in it, and no matter what this still comes in bottom 5 for me.

So, on it's own, not compared to any other film in the franchise, what makes this movie worthy of praise?

PitchBlackProgress wrote:I’m still waiting for this one to receive the praise it deserves.

Praise? Well no...

But I'd like to think I understand what this film actually is...
and its not really a Godzilla film.

Do I like it for what it is? Not really...
but it doesn't deserve the hate it gets.

This movie is weird (Minilla talking was just off-putting) and kind of lazy with the stock footage, but it has a strange charm. I like the movie well enough. Also, I kind of like the moral about standing up for yourself.

And becoming a bully and vandal by doing so. A very immoral moral.

Maritonic wrote:So, on it's own, not compared to any other film in the franchise, what makes this movie worthy of praise?

Well, I'm not sure I can talk about it without making some references/comparisons to other movies in the franchise, but I'll do my best to talk about what makes it work.

First off, Ichiro is a very sympathetic protagonist for many viewers. Smaller than many of his peers, not really fitting in, prone to escape the harsh realities of his life through escape into fantasy... as a young Godzilla fan (although not one whose reality was quite as harsh as Ichiro's, as I was middle class, lived in a more suburban region, and went to a smaller school with no real bulying problems), I could definitely relate to certain aspects of his character. And, as an adult, I certainly haven't lost sight of what it's like to feel beat down by the world, and need some encouragement to get back up.

"Kid escapes ugly reality by escaping into parallel fantasy and comes back with important life lessons" is, of course, hardly an original story. But this one does a pretty good job of interweaving the two, both in terms of pacing (never too long or too brief in either "world") and in terms of narrative/thematic linkage.

The use of locations, and the photography, for the urban scenes is really effective, establishing some regions as a chaotic, claustrophobic, traffic-and-smog-soaked nightmare, and others as barren wasteland. And this makes for a very effective contrast with the fantasy scenes set in the kind of lust island settings that dominated Toho's kaiju output of the era.

HillyHulk wrote:This movie is weird (Minilla talking was just off-putting) and kind of lazy with the stock footage

There's nothing lazy about this movie's use of stock footage, though. They didn't just slap it in and call it a day; Sekizawa built his script around it, and Honda made sure to integrate it as smoothly as possible.

The use of stock footage was about budget, not effort. It's not like the effects crew just decided, "Eh, we don't feel like shooting a bunch of new stuff."

eabaker wrote:

Maritonic wrote:So, on it's own, not compared to any other film in the franchise, what makes this movie worthy of praise?

Well, I'm not sure I can talk about it without making some references/comparisons to other movies in the franchise, but I'll do my best to talk about what makes it work.

First off, Ichiro is a very sympathetic protagonist for many viewers. Smaller than many of his peers, not really fitting in, prone to escape the harsh realities of his life through escape into fantasy... as a young Godzilla fan (although not one whose reality was quite as harsh as Ichiro's, as I was middle class, lived in a more suburban region, and went to a smaller school with no real bulying problems), I could definitely relate to certain aspects of his character. And, as an adult, I certainly haven't lost sight of what it's like to feel beat down by the world, and need some encouragement to get back up.

"Kid escapes ugly reality by escaping into parallel fantasy and comes back with important life lessons" is, of course, hardly an original story. But this one does a pretty good job of interweaving the two, both in terms of pacing (never too long or too brief in either "world") and in terms of narrative/thematic linkage.

The use of locations, and the photography, for the urban scenes is really effective, establishing some regions as a chaotic, claustrophobic, traffic-and-smog-soaked nightmare, and others as barren wasteland. And this makes for a very effective contrast with the fantasy scenes set in the kind of lust island settings that dominated Toho's kaiju output of the era.

I see what you're saying, I guess for me it's concept vs. execution. What you're talking about is all beautiful sounding; but it's not executed properly, and other things in the film bog it down. I'd say the locations, photography, and urban setting are absolutely a plus for this film, I'll definitely agree with you on that. But I can't get behind Ichiro as a character, I guess, and Minillia talking just takes me completely out of the film. It's a concept I have a hard time with with Godzilla vs. Gigan, but luckily it's such a quick scene that it's easier to move past. Minilla's talking is a major part of the film.

As to the stock footage, I know it's a common complaint. While I understand why it was used, it's too jarring for me. By that I mean we see them use the Mazer Tank sequence from Gargantuas in Godzilla vs. Gigan. While not seamless, it's relatively believable that it's a new scene and anyone who hadn't seen Gargantuas probably wouldn't instantly catch the stock usage. With this, the radical changes in Godzilla's suit create a really odd experience that, again, take me out of it. It's far too easy for me to go "sea monster, son of godzilla..." and so on. This is absolutely a problem in other films, no denying that, but it just seems so much less fluid here.

On a personal, very biased note? The childish tone does nothing for me. It's why I never really clicked with Ultraman. This is very obviously a children's film, which is fine, but it's almost too childish with some of the camera tricks/music/tone in general. This is not a legitimate complaint against the film, this is my own personal reason for disliking it.

Maritonic wrote:It's far too easy for me to go "sea monster, son of godzilla..." and so on. This is absolutely a problem in other films, no denying that, but it just seems so much less fluid here.

I guess it doesn't bother me since none of it is supposed to be "real" anyway. Kid's seen a bunch of Godzilla movies with different suits, why wouldn't his memories/fantasies of Godzilla reflect that variety?

eabaker wrote:

Maritonic wrote:It's far too easy for me to go "sea monster, son of godzilla..." and so on. This is absolutely a problem in other films, no denying that, but it just seems so much less fluid here.

I guess it doesn't bother me since none of it is supposed to be "real" anyway. Kid's seen a bunch of Godzilla movies with different suits, why wouldn't his memories/fantasies of Godzilla reflect that variety?

No, I mean I get that. But with concept v execution; would you think the concept would be far more enjoyable if it was new footage?

I understand why people like this, but I think it does deserve the criticism it gets. I don't think it's the Halloween III of this franchise that's been unjustly crapped upon.

eabaker wrote:

Maritonic wrote:It's far too easy for me to go "sea monster, son of godzilla..." and so on. This is absolutely a problem in other films, no denying that, but it just seems so much less fluid here.

I guess it doesn't bother me since none of it is supposed to be "real" anyway. Kid's seen a bunch of Godzilla movies with different suits, why wouldn't his memories/fantasies of Godzilla reflect that variety?

Does the film actually imply that Ichiro knows of Godzilla through movies? I remember it being pretty vague about whether or not Godzilla exists in this world.

UltramanGoji wrote:

eabaker wrote:

Maritonic wrote:It's far too easy for me to go "sea monster, son of godzilla..." and so on. This is absolutely a problem in other films, no denying that, but it just seems so much less fluid here.

I guess it doesn't bother me since none of it is supposed to be "real" anyway. Kid's seen a bunch of Godzilla movies with different suits, why wouldn't his memories/fantasies of Godzilla reflect that variety?

Does the film actually imply that Ichiro knows of Godzilla through movies? I remember it being pretty vague about whether or not Godzilla exists in this world.

This is my other issue. This is more of a headcannon/fan theory. Maybe even an analysis, but it's never clear about this.

I agree above, All Monsters Attack was one of the first I saw when young and I instantly became attached to it. I dreamt of Godzilla and similar things. Minya talking was only in my mind and I think it was to give him some more character. I understood the real life comparison and the actors were silly but good. It’s just a fun romp and seeing Gabara get pummeled will never get old.

UltramanGoji wrote:

eabaker wrote:

Maritonic wrote:It's far too easy for me to go "sea monster, son of godzilla..." and so on. This is absolutely a problem in other films, no denying that, but it just seems so much less fluid here.

I guess it doesn't bother me since none of it is supposed to be "real" anyway. Kid's seen a bunch of Godzilla movies with different suits, why wouldn't his memories/fantasies of Godzilla reflect that variety?

Does the film actually imply that Ichiro knows of Godzilla through movies? I remember it being pretty vague about whether or not Godzilla exists in this world.

It is a great debate.

I mean, I saw it when I was a kid too and I felt the same way I do now.

UltramanGoji wrote:

eabaker wrote:

Maritonic wrote:It's far too easy for me to go "sea monster, son of godzilla..." and so on. This is absolutely a problem in other films, no denying that, but it just seems so much less fluid here.

I guess it doesn't bother me since none of it is supposed to be "real" anyway. Kid's seen a bunch of Godzilla movies with different suits, why wouldn't his memories/fantasies of Godzilla reflect that variety?

Does the film actually imply that Ichiro knows of Godzilla through movies? I remember it being pretty vague about whether or not Godzilla exists in this world.

It is pretty vague, but this has always seemed like the reading most consistent with the reality the movie presents, and the way that the adults talk about monsters as something purely of interest to kids.

Again, don't get me wrong. I can see how people find joy in this. I just don't think it's criticisms are unjustified. My ranking of the Godzilla films has changed over the years, but this has always been the bottom (now it's #4 from the bottom). But, for every single Godzilla film, i get how someone could like it and find something different in it. I just don't see this as a film that's so fantastic and great, but gets crapped on. Again, my Halloween III comparison.