So there where two King Ghidorahs in the showa series

[LSD Jellyfish]

As I've always said Toho didn't care about continuity likely during the showa era but they never stepped on two many toes between the movies as the flow good together in a timeline.

Yeah. Keep in mind, back then VHS style stuff was harder to come by, and the internet obviously wasn’t a thing. People probably weren’t so focused on continuity or what would be seen as errors then.

[Zarm]

I just think two Ghidorahs is stupid and pointless... like who cares if he’s suddenly weaker in the 70s? It’s the 70s Godzilla films, they are already just bonkers in every way anyways. Consistency is just not that important here.

This would be my position, as well.

[Billzilla1974]

I've made this point before, but King Ghidorah isn't even weak in the 70s, his battles were actually longer than before in Godzilla vs Gigan because of the stock footage. So, partially because of said stock footage, Ghiddy was holding his own against a likely stronger and more experienced Showa G for a longer period of time.

And even if you discount that, KG rag-dolling a 55,000 ton Zone-fighter, who is shown to be as tough or slightly tougher than 'Pre-G-vs-MechaG' Godzilla, during their fight on earth doesn't seem weak to me.
So ironically, it could be argued that the "weaker" 70s Ghidorah was stronger than he was in the 60s, at least in Zone Fighter.

I hope that the "Two Ghidorahs" retcon isn't canon, since I think it ruins the sense of uniqueness King Ghidorah had from being a one of a kind space demon in the Showa series, as well as the finality his death had in DAM. The retcon wouldn't even be necessary since DAM is generally known to have taken place decades after Godzilla vs Gigan.
No offense, but this "There are two Showa Ghidorahs" thing seems pointless to me as well.

[Arbok]

Hmm... worth checking. I thought I found some old sources that mention it as the Giant Eagle, but having trouble locating them now.

Following up on this the oldest I have found is from 1999.

I hope that the "Two Ghidorahs" retcon isn't canon, since I think it ruins the sense of uniqueness King Ghidorah had from being a one of a kind space demon in the Showa series, as well as the finality his death had in DAM. The retcon wouldn't even be necessary since DAM is generally known to have taken place decades after Godzilla vs Gigan.

If it is a retcon, it's not a recent one. Have gone through more material and see stuff from back in 1998 that note the two generations.

I agree it's unnecessary, but again my hypothesis is that it came from uncertainty during development if the 1972 movie was placed chronologically before or after DAM.

[LamangoKaijura]

Well, let's be honest, Arbok, we've had more books then just one from 1999, and all of them, some written by people close to Tomoyuki Tanaka of all people, said there was One Ghidorah through the whole Showa series, as DAM took place on 'the end of the twentieth century'. Even if it wasn't 1999 like the dub stated, the 'end' could very well mean the 80's. So Ghidorah being around in 1973 like in vsGigan and Zonefighter makes sense.

Again, multiple books vs one or two siting sources. The same can be done for Gorosaurus. A few books list the one from 1967 as a completely different creature from the one in Destroy all Monsters. There's even been two Kumongas in the showa series according to some books. And some books still state the Anguirus in '55 is the same one in all of the Showa series.

[miguelnuva]

I vote that 60's Ghidorah now be called Grand King Ghidorah(Showa).

[Billzilla1974]

I hope that the "Two Ghidorahs" retcon isn't canon, since I think it ruins the sense of uniqueness King Ghidorah had from being a one of a kind space demon in the Showa series, as well as the finality his death had in DAM. The retcon wouldn't even be necessary since DAM is generally known to have taken place decades after Godzilla vs Gigan.

If it is a retcon, it's not a recent one. Have gone through more material and see stuff from back in 1998 that note the two generations.

I agree it's unnecessary, but again my hypothesis is that it came from uncertainty during development if the 1972 movie was placed chronologically before or after DAM.

That makes sense given how hard it would've been to get proper info on Godzilla timelines 20 years ago, but if we know now that DAM takes place after Gigan, then would the 2 Ghidorah's retcon still be considered valid? I can't translate at all so I wouldn't know.

If Tanaka or people close to him wrote about there being two Showa Ghidorah's, then I would have to accept it as canon, but until/unless some info like that is found, i'd like to believe there was only one.
Honestly, one little thing i wish Toho would do is give an actual size for the DAM Gorosaurus.

[Arbok]

Well, let's be honest, Arbok, we've had more books then just one from 1999...

Well after this thread I'm looking for more sources and found one as old as 1992, used to promote Godzilla vs. Mothra, that state it. So for the record, that's publications from 1992-2016 which state this.

Not all books do, of course. Many simplify their listings. Mothra is a great example of this where a lot of books list it as all being the same with the same sizes, which is not the case.

...some written by people close to Tomoyuki Tanaka of all people, said there was One Ghidorah through the whole Showa series, as DAM took place on 'the end of the twentieth century'.

Can you cite one that also lists generations for the other Showa kaiju in it?

The same can be done for Gorosaurus. A few books list the one from 1967 as a completely different creature from the one in Destroy all Monsters.

It was.

There's even been two Kumongas in the showa series according to some books.

There are.

And some books still state the Anguirus in '55 is the same one in all of the Showa series.

That's not the case.

That makes sense given how hard it would've been to get proper info on Godzilla timelines 20 years ago, but if we know now that DAM takes place after Gigan, then would the 2 Ghidorah's retcon still be considered valid? I can't translate at all so I wouldn't know.
...
Honestly, one little thing i wish Toho would do is give an actual size for the DAM Gorosaurus.

I don't know if it's a retcon, and if it is it's been in place for awhile as I'm up to a book in 1992 mentioning it.

On the same foot, I have sources from 2014 and 2016 which state this, so I would say it's still valid as well.

As for Gorosaurus, Toho seems adamant to keep some things the same way. Gorosaurus was a late addition to DAM and it's possible Toho didn't adjust stats for him the way they did others like Varan, Manda etc because of that... and they decided to honor what was done back then.

[LSD Jellyfish]

Regardless of the debate of the legitimacy of guide books, and what’s directly shown on camera, versus what someone or what some states happened in a film post-facto-

Isn’t it sorta interesting how two Ghidorahs, or THATS NOT THE REAL GHIDORAH, is a constant theme throughout the franchise?

We have the two showa Ghidorahs
We have Desghidorah and the actual KG in ROM
Then in the comics, we have the most interesting thing which seems identical to the showa universe. There’s a King Ghidorah in the KOM-ROE run, but later it’s revealed they’re separate creatures or something.

Many people disregard the Heisei and GMK incarnations of KG, and also say keizer Ghidorah isn’t KG.

Too many Ghidorahs.
Will the real Ghidorah please stand up?

[GojiDog]

I always just assumed that Godzilla Vs. Gigan takes place in the year it was released, 1972, and Ghidorah's ultimate defeat/possible and likely death in DAM happened in 1999.

But I also feel like there is no real right answer here as continuity back then was very loose. This was before the internet and before home video, so people weren't watching these movies repeatedly and memorizing all the key details. They'd see the movie, leave the theater, and then see the next one when that came out, forgetting several aspects of the previous film. That's why the continuity was often painted with broad strokes rather than intricate detail.

Godzilla Vs. Mechagodzilla to Terror of Mechagodzilla is a perfect example of this. Terror follows the big ideas from the previous film: Bad aliens built robot Godzilla and tried to take over Earth. But some of the finer details such as the location of the first fight, the nature of the aliens themselves (green apes to what look like radiation victims), and the fact that nobody thinks to summon King Caesar again all indicate a lack of concern for maintaining complete continuity in the Showa films.

[JesstrK]

As for Ghidorah seeming weaker in Godzilla vs. Gigan, I always put it down to him simply having a bad day. Everyone has them. He also seemed kind of dazed after the aliens control was lost, so that might have effected his fighting ability as well. Makes more sense than there being two Ghidorahs, imo.

[LSD Jellyfish]

^Also brings up a question if monsters are inherently stronger or weaker when being mind contolled. It also does remind me how in the Heisei film, after the control was disconnected Ghidorah has like a seizure before Godzilla curb stomps him.

[Godzillian]

This only makes sense if DAM is in correctly put in 1968 instead of 1999. The book mentions Ghidorah dying in DAM so there was a second one, nothing more. Its just a misunderstanding of the timeline. There is no mention of the Space Hunters finding a weaker ghidorah in the book

[Arbok]

This only makes sense if DAM is in correctly put in 1968 instead of 1999.

The international dub cites 1999, while I have a publication that cites it for 1990... so I need more sources, but have yet to see one state DAM as taking place in the 1960's. Most publications just keep it vague as taking place at the "end of the 20th century".

The book mentions Ghidorah dying in DAM so there was a second one, nothing more. Its just a misunderstanding of the timeline. There is no mention of the Space Hunters finding a weaker ghidorah in the book

Which book are you referring to?

[miguelnuva]

As for Ghidorah seeming weaker in Godzilla vs. Gigan, I always put it down to him simply having a bad day. Everyone has them. He also seemed kind of dazed after the aliens control was lost, so that might have effected his fighting ability as well. Makes more sense than there being two Ghidorahs, imo.

How does a monster that arguably beat Godzilla and Rodan and usually holds it's own against 3 monsters having a bad day make more sense than a second one being found?

I would like for their to have only been one King Ghidorah as well but it does make sense considering Godzilla was handling Ghidorah on his own.

[Ivo-goji]

Aside from the fact that he was never anywhere near that strong to begin with, secretly smuggling a whole second Ghidorah into the series is a way more radical than just saying "he wasn't feeling 100% that day".

[eabaker]

The audience perceives King Ghidorah as a character, not a species. If the movie doesn't explicitly state that "this is a different King Ghidorah," then - official sources or no - it's ultimately fanwank.

Which is fine! Fanwank is part of the joy of fandom! But it doesn't really alter the movie itself.

[miguelnuva]

Aside from the fact that he was never anywhere near that strong to begin with, secretly smuggling a whole second Ghidorah into the series is a way more radical than just saying "he wasn't feeling 100% that day".

Ghidorah was always able to fight 3 months at once till Goro broke his back.

Godzilla vs Gigan is his only bad showing.

Added in 1 minute 12 seconds:
Also like I said it's not the best evidence but a second King Ghidorah appearing j the showa era is no different than 3 Mothra, 2 or 3 Rodans, 2 Angurius, 3 Godzillas ect.

[LSD Jellyfish]

It’s different though^
We see Godzilla 1 die, and Godzilla 2 is the protagonist of the remainder of the showa series. Godzilla 3(Minya) is shown hatching and obviously a different creature.

-Anguruius 2 is clearly a different creature because we see Anguruius get killed off at the end of GRA. Same for things like early Mothra. With Ghidorah it’s compeltely different because other than DAM, Ghidorah doesn’t die, and it wasn’t established prior it’s a species.

[LamangoKaijura]

Meh, Books are confusing is really all I'm getting at, Arbok. I know one book said there's actually two Ebirah's, 66, and 69. Hell, one even said there was two Minyas, Son of Godzilla and Revenge and then a separate one in DAM. And now with the influx of novel books, we're getting more confusing crap. @.@