Alternate Universe Idea--No Godzilla 1955-1975

[MinorBone Good]

Sorry if this has been discussed before, but I had an idea that I thought would be interesting.

What if the Godzilla from 1955 never existed, the 1954 Godzilla being one of a kind? What would Anguirus do in 1955? Would Ghidorah have destroyed Earth?

Please, share your ideas!

[Ivo-goji]

Without following Godzilla, Anguirus never attacks Osaka.

Without following Godzilla, Kong never sticks around in Japan, and simply swims back home.

Torahata and Kumayama kill each other, and then... the heroes collect Mothra's egg and go on their merry way?

Mothra, one or more of her offspring, and Rodan fight off King Ghidorah (I laugh at the idea of any scenario where Ghidorah actually wins a fight against any group of kaiju).

Rodan is taken by the Xiliens, they use mind control to make him attack Earth with Ghidorah, Earthlings free them from mind control and they fight until Ghidorah flies away.

Mothra saves her worshipers from the Red Bamboo, the heroes' actions probably lead to the island blowing up with or without Godzilla.

If Minilla was born then he is killed and eaten by the Kamacuras.

Ichiro learns to look up to Mothra and her larva as his idols.

Hedorah appears and is eventually killed by electrodes. It might take several attempts but by this point humanity has the means of fighting kaiju on their own.

Gigan and Ghidorah cause significantly more havoc than before, but the Earthlings can again rather easily break the mind control over them even without kaiju assistance. What Gigan and Ghidorah do after that is up for debate, but there are enough giant monsters around that they still wouldn't be able to get far before someone drives them off. Without the Nebulans controlling them they probably just leave.

Jet Jaguar gets another kaiju's help, maybe Mothra or Anguirus, to fight Megalon and Gigan.

The Simeon invasions are thwarted by human effort. If King Scissors can live long enough for Nanbara and co to blow up the Simeon control room, he takes out the first Mechagodzilla in the resulting confusion. The second Mechagodzilla becomes manageable for the JSDF after Katsura is killed; Titanosaurus placidly returns to the sea once Mafune's control is broken.

The Kilaak invasion plays and is thwarted with no difference from how it happens in DAM. Gorosaurus is the MVP.

[GodzillaFan1990's]

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Wrong section.

[MinorBone Good]

Hmm, what would Anguirus be doing around the early 60's? Maybe he could be trying to protect Mothra's egg in 1964. Also, would the Black Hole Aliens create MechaMothra?

[Billzilla1974]

1962: Kong takes up residence in the Japanese alps, rather than get his lazy butt back home.
1964: Mothra's egg hatches and the two hatchlings go home with the original, who dies before GTTHM.
Rodan roams japan until the Mothra twins convince him and Kong to fight against Ghidorah, who retreats, but causes one of the larvae to die, and leaves the other three somewhat injured (especially Kong due to his extreme flammability compared to Goji, Showa Ghidorah being stronger than some might think, and the fact that KGs "Gravity beams" aren't electricity)
1965: Goes the same except Ghidorah eventually kills Kong underwater before retreating, leaving Rodan to recover later.
1966: Mothra 1964 defeats the red bamboo, and is badly injured in the process.

1971: The JSDF eventually defeats hedorah with the electrodes, leaving Rodan and Showa Anguirus badly injured, with Mothra 1964 dead with one offspring.
1972: Rodan, Anguirus, and a Mothra larva go to fight KG and Gigan, barely winning due to heavy opposition. This Mothra dies before she can lay an egg.
1973: The Anguirus that first appeared in 1955 finally awakens due to nuclear tests, and is eventually convinced to fight alongside Rodan & JJ. Showa Anguirus still falls into the fissure at Monster island. Megalon is actually killed this time by Anguirus 55, and Gigan is killed early by JJ and Rodan, instead of meeting his end in Zone Fighter.
*MechaGodzilla is still made because of how Memorable the 1954 Goji's attack on Tokyo was.

1974: Anguirus 55 attacks Fake Godzilla/MG and is killed in the process. Showa Anguirus, Rodan, and King Ceasar eventually destroy MechaGodzilla.
1975: Jet Jaguar, Anguirus, and Rodan go on to fight MechaGodzilla 2 & Titanosaurus. The trio win, but JJ is destroyed.

DAM: Goes the same until the ending battle, in which Ghidorah fights for longer, and makes a successful retreat to space, since none of the monsters who stood back before could reach Ghiddy in time & have the strength to pull Ghidorah back down. Gorosaurus was originally forced away by a gravity beam, so he couldn't get to KG in time.
The Kilaakians use the Fire Dragon as a ploy to retreat to space, and eventually construct an army of more 'Fire Dragons'. They use this armada with a healed up King Ghidorah to destroy human civilization. Since none of the earth monsters have any weapons to properly combat the Fire Dragons, they are all killed sooner or later. Without enough freezing weapons/powerful enough weaponry to deal with the Kilaakians and King Ghidorah, the Earth is reduced to a scorched ball of flame.

[Zarm]

Wow. Lots of optimism here. (Well, except for Billzilla; I'm afraid I follow a similar line of thinking).

I am the first to rag on King Ghidorah- but he is a world-destroyer. He just... takes his time. I would say he lays waste to the Earth in GtTHM, if not for the fact that he was defeated almost without the use of atomic rays, which means that the other kaiju might have a chance.

But, even if he doesn't, Hedorah destroys the world. He was growing exponentially; humanity wasn't going to get another chance. He was barely at the edge of managable size. And even if they'd somehow managed to entice him in, the flying form would escape, regroup, and be wise to such tricks. Mankind dies at one point or another.

But, for the sake of argument...

Anguirus is trapped in a glacier. However, at least less collateral damage to civilization occurred beforehand.

Not sure if he manages to free himself as Godzilla did quite as quickly, so Kong most likely swims home. Even if Anguirus breaks out, his personality (at least, based on the latter) seems to suggest he wouldn't really attack civilization, just head out on his own, so Japan would have no good reason to compel he and Kong together. No fight, either way.

Mothra takes her offspring and leaves; if Anguirus hadn't broken out before, he does now.

Rodan awakens; King Ghidorah arrives. The problem is that Anguirus and Kong are minding their own business on tropical islands; only Rodan, Mothra, and both larvae are actually in range to engage Ghidorah. At best, they may succeed with a badly-wounded Rodan and one larva surviving? At worst, they fail, and Ghidorah slowly destroys the Earth, having to face Anguirus, Kong, possibly Megalon, King Caesar, Ebirah, the Giant Condor, Kumonga, Manda, Varan, Gorosaurus, Titanosaurus, Baragon... they're all out there, but most in isolation, and facing them one at a time, Ghidorah would be likely to triumph. It would be a months-long or years-long campaign, but Earth would suffer Venus' fate. The only hope is Planet X coming in to mind-control the monster, to preserve Earth as a resource, and taking it for themselves.

Since this timeline dead-ends, let's follow the one where Rodan and a larva succeed.

Well... that one potentially ends the same, with just a weakened Rodan and Mothra Larva to oppose him this time. If they succeed in driving him off because of post-mind-control confusion, Rodan might just give his life for it this time, if not both of them.

Newly-Imago Mothra may still be able to rescue her people without Godzilla's distraction, but the Red Bamboo will continue their nefarious schemes unabated, as nothing destroys their base. The next ship that tries to leave with fake yellow juice will be destroyed, but it will only be a small contingent and not the whole evacuating populace- a nuisance but not deadly.

Minilla does get eaten, sadly.

Then Hedorah destroys the world. Nope, sorry; he just does. The battle at mount Fuji was the last chance; lacking that, the Earth is overrun. The only chance at all that the Earth has is Seatopia and Megalon (calling in Gigan), which might be able to dehydrate/catch him, or an electrically-charged Kong... if Hedorah has not grown far too powerful by the time he reaches Kong's island. Either way, Japan is a wasteland of death.

Following either of these very-slim chances for survival- and the timeline we are following the thread of now is an unlikely one to begin with- any one of four consecutive Alien/undersea races conquer the Earth. Quite likely the Seatopians and Hunter M Nebula aliens together. Possibly, they might turn on each-other for sole control of the planet, with the Black Hole Aliens and MechaG stepping in to take over from the weakened, feuding sides? When the Hunter M Nebula aliens bring in Ghidorah, Seatopia is going to lose- but if the Black Hole Aliens strike at the right moment, Ghidorah may run and Gigan still be defeated.

Regardless, Earth will be a lot less of a prize by this point, at least in the area of eastern Asia and Indonesia, with all the fallout from Hedorah and the aftermath of land-wars between Earth's conquerors. And if the conquering allies remain united, the Black Hole aliens may decide their power is a little too formidable to challenge, and look elsewhere.

That said, when the Kilaaks show up in 1999, and rally the Earth's remaining, disparate monsters (Anguirus, Kong, Ebirah, the Giant Condor, Kumonga, Kamacuras, Manda, Gorosaurus, Varan, Titanosaurus, and Baragon) into one place to fight off either Gigan and Ghidorah (possibly with Megalon if the alliance is intact), or Mechagodzilla, they will succeed in taking the planet. But with Japan and its space program a wasteland, it is unlikely that the tables will be turned on them; even if Interpol still manages to break the mind-control on their own, the now-weakened monster army (having already fought off a formidable foe) is going to be in shambles (mostly dead if they had to fight off the entire trio). If they just finished fighting Mechagodzilla, it's unlikely that they'll be able to defeat the Kilaak's scavenged King Ghidorah, and if the few wounded survivors remain from fighting off Ghidorah, Gigan, and Megalon, it's unlikely that any of them (especially after they've gone their separate ways) will be able to defeat Mechagodzilla after the biding-their-time-and-not-challenging-the-Seatopian/Hunter-M-alliance Black Hole Aliens build him and move in, around 2002 or so. Either the Kilaaks or the Black Hole Aliens will likely retain final control of the Earth.

Even Zone Fighter won't be able to affect this final outcome, having been killed at one of several earlier points without Godzilla's help; possibly never even landing on Earth in the first place after all the post-Hedorah fallout.

In short, without Godzilla around, there is no happy ending.

[Ivo-goji]

Without Godzilla neither Anguirus nor Kong have any reason to come to Japan. Anguirus certainly has no reason to go to the island where Godzilla got buried in that avalanche.

It will never stop being hilarious that anyone thinks Ghidorah, the patron saint of running away, can win a fight.

Earth never needed Godzilla's help to break alien mind control, four out of five scenarios that's all they need to do for the threat to be neutralized.

It takes maybe five minutes to fix the electrodes and then Hedorah is dead. Off chance he gets away humanity has anti kaiju weapons out the wazoo. Zero reason to believe Hedorah lasts.

[Zarm]

Without Godzilla neither Anguirus nor Kong have any reason to come to Japan. Anguirus certainly has no reason to go to the island where Godzilla got buried in that avalanche.

Fair enough. I assumed they'd lure him there; either way, he's more or less out of play.

It will never stop being hilarious that anyone thinks Ghidorah, the patron saint of running away, can win a fight.

Ghidorah is a wuss, sure- but he's not harmless. He can still wreck things, and without Godzilla there to deal the heavy hits that would cause him to run away, I don't think he's going to be fleeing so easily. He didn't flee the first time until after he received enough punishment to convince him that sticking around was a bad idea. I don't know the the group without Godzilla is capable of delivering that level of punishment.

Earth never needed Godzilla's help to break alien mind control, four out of five scenarios that's all they need to do for the threat to be neutralized.

I count 5 timelines.
A. GtTHM; no mind control. Ghidorah destroys Earth, slowly. (Or else Planet X intervenes, but breaking mind control would just leave Ghidorah to resume the destruction)
B. Hedorah destroys the world; no mind control.
C. Seatopians and Hunter M aliens take over the world. Neither Gigan or Megalon are mind-controlled (iirc; at the very least, neither instantly flee when it is broken); King Ghidorah’s could be broken, but Earth will still fall. Seatopians and Hunter M rule.
D. Black hole aliens take over. Mechagodzilla has no mind-control. Taking out his control room would help, but lacking a way to destroy the monster, he’ll be back up and running again soon.
E. Kilaaks step in; that they lose control of Earth’s monsters is assumed. But Ghidorah appeared to be under control from an entirely separate source; no reason to assume Earth could break their control of him before the big battle, as they didn’t in the film, either.

It’s also significant to note that the first two- and likeliest to destroy the world- scenarios involve monsters acting of their own volition, and the latter three would have eliminated pretty much all the active protagonists of the latter films from the Hedorah fallout. And while other humans may step in to fill the gap, the additional fact that the Hunter M and Black Hole Aliens also had reinforcements available and now would have no ‘but they are protected by Godzilla!’ motivation not to just keep on with their plans and come in force if their control base is blown up once means that these human assaults, even if successful, will not mark the end of either invading force’s capability to make war.

It takes maybe five minutes to fix the electrodes and then Hedorah is dead. Off chance he gets away humanity has anti kaiju weapons out the wazoo. Zero reason to believe Hedorah lasts.

No, sir. Five minutes to fix the electrodes, then how do they get Hedorah back into them? How did they keep him there without him being beaten senseless? How, when little version is flying awaynand escaping- which happened even with Godzilla's help- do they catch him? Even if they do somehow, how do they get down to the egg/eye things? And if any part of him does survive, how do they get him into the electrodes the next time, now that he knows the threat? What kind of anti-kaiju weapons would be sufficient to deal with those multiple redundant layers of survival, especially when even Godzilla's Atomic Ray- which appears to be more powerful then pretty much all of Earth's arsenal- is also insufficient? And if such weapons existed, why are they not in this film or even referenced as an option?

Humanity was not capable of defeating Hedorah without Godzilla's help before it grew to a stage that they would no longer be able to handle. The events of the film itself present multiple problems that the stationary, barely functional, stationary-target-requiring electrode rig would not have been able to handle.

Heck, in a universe without Godzilla, Hedorah would reach a stage humanity couldn't handle before the electrodes were even finished and positioned at the mountain, because he wouldn't have been driven off of his first night feeding by Godzilla to begin with.



Obviously, we have some disagreements on Ghidorah and Hedorah's power levels, which is the crux of this disagreement. I do agree that Ghidorah is the king of fleeing and absurdly over-hyped; but I do think it is Godzilla that is necessary to get him to that point, and without him, even Ghidorah wouldn't feel threatened enough to flee. Even barring that, though, I do thing Hedorah is the direst threat that Showa Earth ever faced, and came within a hair's-breadth of being undefeatable even by Godzilla (who lacked the drying power) and the electrodes (which lacked the mobility, speed, and stopping power) in concert; without either, I see victory as impossible.

Assuming we disagree on that, we'll naturally disagree on all the propositions based on it.

[PitchBlackProgress]

For the record, the Gotengo could have probably killed Hedorah

[Billzilla1974]

It will never stop being hilarious that anyone thinks Ghidorah, the patron saint of running away, can win a fight.

I have no idea why anyone thinks King Ghidorah's cowardice somehow equals him being weak.

He was clearly outclassing Goji, Rodan, and Mothra whenever any of them tried using brute force alone in GTTHM.

Rodan slams into KG with both presumably going at top speed. Result: KG gets up in between frames whereas Rodan took a couple seconds to get up.

Godzilla, Rodan, and Mothra all try to restrain him at once, with mothra at his tail, Goji holding his necks, and Rodan landing on his back. Result: Ghidorah tosses Mothra with his tail, shakes Rodan off his back, and knocks Goji flat on his prehistoric ass.

King Ghidorah also proved to be a forced to reckoned with in Zone Fighter, and when faced with Godzilla & Rodan in Monster Zero, he was able to keep the two on their toes without Mothra there to distract him.

I highly disagree with the notion that KG is a weakling or got weaker at any point in the Showa Era, he seemed to be more of a juggernaut than most Showa foes not named Hedorah or MechaGodzilla.

Yes, King Ghidorah is a coward, but not one that is genuinely weak, so much as a bad strategist.

[kamilleblu]

I agree with Zarm. King Ghidorah would be a greater headache without Godzilla around to assist and Hedorah would have driven humanity to extinction in no time. Hedorah was already on the verge of taking out Japan before the combined efforts of humanity and Godzilla took him down. And that was no easy battle. He's truly Godzilla's most dangerous foe.

[Zarm]

Yes, King Ghidorah is a coward, but not one that is genuinely weak, so much as a bad strategist.

That's it exactly.

I mean, I get where Ivo's coming from; I always felt like Ghidorah was way-overhyped; he never lived up to the destroyer-of-worlds moniker, and I don't think he was truly Godzilla's toughest foe. But, he did take a lot of effort to beat (up until Godzilla got hyper-ultra-super-powered in the 70s), and he didn't run unless he received enough pain to not make it worth his while anymore. And in the case of GtTHM, where he's at full strength after a long slumber and acting of his own accord, where it took three kaiju to beat him... I just don't know that replacing Godzilla (already a powerful fighter) with a dying imago Mothra and a second larva would be enough to kick in that "I gotta get outta here!" instinct that Ghidorah can so easily default to.

Added in 2 minutes 37 seconds:

Hedorah would have driven humanity to extinction in no time. Hedorah was already on the verge of taking out Japan before the combined efforts of humanity and Godzilla took him down. And that was no easy battle. He's truly Godzilla's most dangerous foe.

Yeah, I gotta say... I don't like the movie that much, but Hedorah really captures an apocalyptic, Godzilla-as-underdog-on-the-verge-of-failure feel that no other foe does. Plus he has a great design. Much as I don't necessarily want him to me (nor Ghidorah, I'm a Mechagodzilla fan), I think I have to admit that the last year or two has brought me to this conclusion, too. He is Godzilla's most dangerous foe (at least from the showa era). And he feels more dangerous than possibly-equally-lethal foes from later eras like Spacegodzilla, Destroyah, and Keiser Ghidorah. They each have the same theoretical world-ending potential.. but Hedorah is the only one that makes you feel it. (To me).

[kamilleblu]

Added in 2 minutes 37 seconds:

Hedorah would have driven humanity to extinction in no time. Hedorah was already on the verge of taking out Japan before the combined efforts of humanity and Godzilla took him down. And that was no easy battle. He's truly Godzilla's most dangerous foe.

Yeah, I gotta say... I don't like the movie that much, but Hedorah really captures an apocalyptic, Godzilla-as-underdog-on-the-verge-of-failure feel that no other foe does. Plus he has a great design. Much as I don't necessarily want him to me (nor Ghidorah, I'm a Mechagodzilla fan), I think I have to admit that the last year or two has brought me to this conclusion, too. He is Godzilla's most dangerous foe (at least from the showa era). And he feels more dangerous than possibly-equally-lethal foes from later eras like Spacegodzilla, Destroyah, and Keiser Ghidorah. They each have the same theoretical world-ending potential.. but Hedorah is the only one that makes you feel it. (To me).

Just Hedorah's existence was a threat to literally everything. In the course of a few days he went from something you could share the same water with to killing thousands with simple fumes, corroding buildings, and stripping Godzilla's hand to the bone just by seconds of exposure to his sludge. Assuming the film took place in the year it was released, Hedorah had no shortage of pollution to consume and use to evolve to his heart's delight. Serious environmental protection laws did not exist in most or any first world countries until that very year. Without Godzilla there to disturb him, Hedorah likely would have evolved faster and multiplied frighteningly quickly. Killing him is no small feat. You have to dehydrate every piece of his body, which involves getting through his tough exterior, or else he'll return with a vengeance. Hedorah would have killed Godzilla had the two battled without interference. Godzilla had no real defense or means to harm his enemy and Hedorah's toxicity increased by the hour.

[PitchBlackProgress]

I agree with Zarm. King Ghidorah would be a greater headache without Godzilla around to assist and Hedorah would have driven humanity to extinction in no time.

I really don’t see how, unless I’m forgetting something, the Gotengo was never destroyed in Atragon/Atoragon so I feel like eventually they’d just send it after Hedorah and would either freeze or shock him to death if Godzilla wasn’t around

[edgaguirus]

There would have been no fight between Anguirus, King kong, or Mothra. Mothra's egg would have been returned.

The alien invasions could probably have been defeated by man, though some may have been more difficult to handle.

Hedorah would likely not have been defeated, however. Godzilla was a convenient distraction for Hedorah, and without Godzilla, Hedorah would have been able to feed and grow like crazy. While the electrodes did work with Godzilla's help, by themselves, I think it would not have worked to stop Hedorah.

[Zarm]

I agree with Zarm. King Ghidorah would be a greater headache without Godzilla around to assist and Hedorah would have driven humanity to extinction in no time.

I really don’t see how, unless I’m forgetting something, the Gotengo was never destroyed in Atragon/Atoragon so I feel like eventually they’d just send it after Hedorah and would either freeze or shock him to death if Godzilla wasn’t around

This firstly assumes that both are in the same universe (whether we're just talking the G-films themselves, or all Showa films; my theory is based on the former). But it also secondly assumes that either method would be capable of destroying Hedorah despite all those layers of redundancy after he had continued to exponentially increase in size and power.

I would suggest that, based on the internal logic of the film itself, such technology doesn't exist within the universe that vs. Hedorah is set in, owing to the utter lack of any reference to such weaponry as an option. Although that perspective is up for debate; there's a lot of space-age and maser-tech that seems to be ignored by the 70s films, as if they were a separate sub-universe unto themselves.

[MechaGoji Bro7503]

I just love how Godzilla always changes the world no matter what continuity he is in - just shows how powerful even his presence is.

Yeah, I would have to agree about Hedorah, he probably is the toughest and deadliest of the Showa Kaiju. Although it makes me wonder if say, what would once Hedorah probably destroys the world by 1973 if he leaves Earth and encounters Zone Fighter and/or an army of Terror-Beasts.