Connecting The Showa Godzilla Continuity
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Re: Connecting The Showa Godzilla Continuity
It's also worth noting that all the Godzilla films, while maybe purely coincidental, pick up where Godzilla was previously seen. We all know their related in some form but still.
- GRA-KKvG: Godzilla is entombed in ice and 7 years later emerges out of an iceberg. (Not too farfetched).
- KKvG-MvG: By the end of his battle with Kong, Godzilla is thrown into the ocean and in 1964 is washed ashore.
-MvG- GTTHM: 'Nuff said honestly.
- GTTHM- IAM: At the end of GTTHM both Godzilla and Rodan were last seen in the countryside and the next year are found somewhere around there.
- IAM- SM- Godzilla was thrown into the ocean after the previous film and is found on an island. He possibly drifted there. Godzilla is even found unconscious.
- SM- SoG- Godzilla was last seen jumping in the ocean; next film he is seen swimming through the sea.
Now it gets a little tricky considering DAM takes place in 1999 and Revenge might be a child's imagination.
-GvH- GvG- Godzilla is a known hero. Godzilla is seen presumably leaving Japan in vs Hedorah and is found on Monster Island the following year. Not too mention the pollution connections and the Nebulan galaxy being mentioned as Hedorah's place of origin. (If memory serves me correct)
- GvG- GvMN- Simple, both Godzilla and Anguirus are swimming back to Monster Island and are shown to still be living there in 1973 along with Rodan.
-GvMN-ZF- After his showndown with Megalon, Godzilla was seen casually walking through the countryside and in Zone Fighter he is found in a cave.....in the countryside. Probably because Monster Island was destroyed by nuclear tests and he didn't feel like returning to the ocean. Not too mention Gigan is severely damaged.
-ZF- GvMG- After the nuclear fiasco on Monster Island Anguirus burrowed himself back to Japan and continued to check out what's going on due to seeing those strange explosions along with Godzilla acting strange. We all know what happens from there...... then Godzilla himself burts out of a building from the ground up. Yeah, I can't really explain that.
- GvMG- TOMG- After his battle with his mechanical doppelganger, Godzilla is seen seen swimming off to do who knows what. And by the events of TOMG the BHP3 aliens track Godzilla from their radar swimming from the ocean to Titanosaurus's location.
I just thought it was kinda interesting how each film picks up after another in some way. I like to believe other films beside Rodan and Mothra are connected.
- GRA-KKvG: Godzilla is entombed in ice and 7 years later emerges out of an iceberg. (Not too farfetched).
- KKvG-MvG: By the end of his battle with Kong, Godzilla is thrown into the ocean and in 1964 is washed ashore.
-MvG- GTTHM: 'Nuff said honestly.
- GTTHM- IAM: At the end of GTTHM both Godzilla and Rodan were last seen in the countryside and the next year are found somewhere around there.
- IAM- SM- Godzilla was thrown into the ocean after the previous film and is found on an island. He possibly drifted there. Godzilla is even found unconscious.
- SM- SoG- Godzilla was last seen jumping in the ocean; next film he is seen swimming through the sea.
Now it gets a little tricky considering DAM takes place in 1999 and Revenge might be a child's imagination.
-GvH- GvG- Godzilla is a known hero. Godzilla is seen presumably leaving Japan in vs Hedorah and is found on Monster Island the following year. Not too mention the pollution connections and the Nebulan galaxy being mentioned as Hedorah's place of origin. (If memory serves me correct)
- GvG- GvMN- Simple, both Godzilla and Anguirus are swimming back to Monster Island and are shown to still be living there in 1973 along with Rodan.
-GvMN-ZF- After his showndown with Megalon, Godzilla was seen casually walking through the countryside and in Zone Fighter he is found in a cave.....in the countryside. Probably because Monster Island was destroyed by nuclear tests and he didn't feel like returning to the ocean. Not too mention Gigan is severely damaged.
-ZF- GvMG- After the nuclear fiasco on Monster Island Anguirus burrowed himself back to Japan and continued to check out what's going on due to seeing those strange explosions along with Godzilla acting strange. We all know what happens from there...... then Godzilla himself burts out of a building from the ground up. Yeah, I can't really explain that.
- GvMG- TOMG- After his battle with his mechanical doppelganger, Godzilla is seen seen swimming off to do who knows what. And by the events of TOMG the BHP3 aliens track Godzilla from their radar swimming from the ocean to Titanosaurus's location.
I just thought it was kinda interesting how each film picks up after another in some way. I like to believe other films beside Rodan and Mothra are connected.
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Re: Connecting The Showa Godzilla Continuity
It requires a greater leap in logic to assume every kaiju who crossed over to a Godzilla movie besides Mothra and Rodan was completely reinvented for that appearance without any connection to their original film than it does to say that the precedent set by GTTHM held true for the rest of the series.LamangoKaijura wrote:OK. So here's the scoop. A big one.
Godzilla's universe is it's own reality. The only confirmed crossover things to happen are Mothra from 1961 and Rodan from 1956.
Neither Godzilla, Mothra, or Rodan maintained consistent physical appearances throughout the series, that the same would be true of other kaiju should be no surprise.
And Monsterland never appears outside of DAM. Monster Island is a separate location that was introduced by that name one film earlier.Except Oshagowara was used for Monster Land...
No one really mentions that the events of G54 and Godzilla Raids Again happened in KKvsG, but it goes without saying that the Godzilla who appeared in the previous two movies is the same one who shows up in that title. Godzilla vs Hedorah doesn't mention any of Godzilla's past adventures, but we don't generally assume it takes place in own separate universe. None of Minilla's appearances after Son of Godzilla mention anything that happened in that movie, no one argues Son of Godzilla didn't happen. Why would other kaiju be any different? The common sense conclusion when a creator reuses a character across multiple works is that those works are interrelated. Maybe if the character's origins are actually reimagined in the new film (like when Mothra was reintroduced in the Heisei series with a new backstory) then we have a reason for separating them from their old appearance- but that's not the case with any of kaiju we're discussing.It goes like this. And it's a general rule basically. "If it's not stated as happening, then it didn't happen.'
Kaiju and characters from the Godzilla series show up in the Toho Frankenstein movies, kaiju and weapons from the Toho Frankenstein movies show up in the Godzilla series, the natural conclusion is that they take place in the same universe. The alternative requires applying a logic to Godzilla films that differs from that of any other work of fiction I've ever heard of.So no, the films aren't related, it's an instance of same monster, different universe.
Rodan was thoroughly dead in his first movie, came back anyway, happens to lots of kaiju. Robots can be replicated. The aliens were always stealing from each other. Nothing new there.Why would the Xillians have Moguera, who was built by the Mysterians, which probably died out by the time 19XX rolled around. More MechaGodzilla? Or Gigan? Why would they go through the trouble of reviving Gezora, who was weak to fire?
Last edited by Ivo-goji on Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Connecting The Showa Godzilla Continuity
That assumes that this is an either/or proposition. After their initial appearances, these characters existed in Japanese popular culture, and could therefore be used and taken for granted as familiar, returning characters without either their previous movies having to be part of some absolute canon, or their earlier movies having officially not happened and their having new invented backstories.Ivo-goji wrote:It requires a greater leap in logic to assume every kaiju who crossed over to a Godzilla movie besides Mothra and Rodan was completely reinvented for that appearance without any connection to their original film than it does to say that the precedent set by GTTHM held true for the rest series.LamangoKaijura wrote:OK. So here's the scoop. A big one.
Godzilla's universe is it's own reality. The only confirmed crossover things to happen are Mothra from 1961 and Rodan from 1956.
They're just characters who were used to tell some stories. It doesn't have to be any more complicated than that.
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Re: Connecting The Showa Godzilla Continuity
Yeah, but it's stated in DAM, a Typhoon did it. And it screwed up the security of Monster Land.Zarm wrote:Didn't we kinda see its destruction in the opening of- was it vs. Megalon, I think?LamangoKaijura wrote:Another glaring error is the Moon was wrecked and destroyed in Gorath in 1980. In Monster of Monsters and DAM, the Moon is clearly OK.
So an island with not one, but two radioactive absorbing dinosaurs, was made inhospitable by nuclear test, and Earthquakes, even though Baragon, Anguirus and Gorosaurus can burrow.Of course. Sollgel/Monster Island was destroyed (or at least made inhospitable) by all the nuclear tests and earthquakes in 1973.
According to DAM, a Typhoon broke the island before, 20 years prior to the film.
Man, Spider-Man in the Zombie Universe is the same Spider-Man in Earth 616? And the Z Universe one that Sandman blew the stomach out of after forcing himself down the gullet is the same one as 616? AND Japanese Spaida Man is the same as 616!? How come he doesn't use Leopordon to fight Green Goblin!?Kaiju and characters from the Godzilla series show up in the Toho Frankenstein movies, kaiju and weapons from the Toho Frankenstein movies show up in the Godzilla series, the natural conclusion is that they take place in the same universe. The alternative requires applying a logic to Godzilla films that differs from that of any other work of fiction I've ever heard of.
Also, no, Nick Adams isn't the same character in Invasion of the Astro Monster and Frankenstein vs Baragon.
There's a reason Oodako was in Frankenstein films. Cause it's a different creature then the one Kong fought.
And the JSDF made maser canons in the Godzilla universe, later then they were introduced.
Unless you're saying Stock Footage is the reason the monsters all exist in the same universe? Cause then that's stupid.
Also, it's worth noting, DAM's only taken place in 1999 in the dub.
This is still up for debate by Toho themselves, they can't decide if Rodan from 1964 to DAM is one of the same Rodans from 1956. I bring this to the arguement:Rodan was thoroughly dead in his first movie, came back anyway, happens to lots of kaiju.
If one Rodan managed to survive the lava flow and bombardment, why not Both? Both were meant to die, and died outside the crater, the 64 one appeared INSIDE the crater.
But here, I'll make it easy:
The Godzilla timeline in Showa is pretty damn easy to follow.
Films like Rodan and Mothra take place in it.
Films like Varan, Frankenstein vs Baragon, Sanda vs Gaira, Mysterians, Dogora, Gorath, King Kong Escapes, Space Amoeba, and Atragon don't exist in the Godzilla Showa timeline, but kaiju, IE, Gorosaurus, Baragon, Varan, Kong, Oodako, and Manda exist in that world.
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Re: Connecting The Showa Godzilla Continuity
The history of storytelling is full of popular characters being used without regards to specific continuity. That traces back at least to Greek mythology/theater/epic poems.
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Re: Connecting The Showa Godzilla Continuity
No, I mean we saw the destruction of the first island- as was said elsewhere, earthquakes, chasms, the whole nine yards.
The typhoon that screwed up security happened to the second island in 1999, in DAM.
We're talking about two separate events, in reference to your skepticism over the notion that the original Island from Son of Godzilla was destroyed necessitating the move to a second different island in DAM. I'm saying that we saw the destruction that first island on-screen as the teaser of one of the films- again I think it was vs Megalon, but I don't remember for sure- making that concept not at all far-fetched but actually demonstrable and evidenced on screen
The typhoon that screwed up security happened to the second island in 1999, in DAM.
We're talking about two separate events, in reference to your skepticism over the notion that the original Island from Son of Godzilla was destroyed necessitating the move to a second different island in DAM. I'm saying that we saw the destruction that first island on-screen as the teaser of one of the films- again I think it was vs Megalon, but I don't remember for sure- making that concept not at all far-fetched but actually demonstrable and evidenced on screen
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Re: Connecting The Showa Godzilla Continuity
Kaiju and characters? The only human or humanoid characters that crossover to/from the Godzilla series are the Shobijin.Ivo-goji wrote:Kaiju and characters from the Godzilla series show up in the Toho Frankenstein movies
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Re: Connecting The Showa Godzilla Continuity
Yeah, it was Megalon. It begins with a narrator speaking about nuclear tests conducted in the Pacific Ocean, eventually telling us "The effects of the explosion were wide spread, even in far away Monster Island in the South Pacific." The island is shown to be engulfed in smoke, explosions all around, with Godzilla, Rodan, and Anguirus borderline panicking as all this chaos goes on around them. The ground cracks open as Godzilla and Anguirus are moving about (possibly trying to evacuate?) and Anguirus falls inside, disappearing until he pops up to fight Mechagodzilla the following year. Godzilla roars in defiance as the explosions get even worse and the film cuts to the title.Zarm wrote:We're talking about two separate events, in reference to your skepticism over the notion that the original Island from Son of Godzilla was destroyed necessitating the move to a second different island in DAM. I'm saying that we saw the destruction that first island on-screen as the teaser of one of the films- again I think it was vs Megalon, but I don't remember for sure- making that concept not at all far-fetched but actually demonstrable and evidenced on screen
Monster Island did not make it past Godzilla vs. Megalon.
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Re: Connecting The Showa Godzilla Continuity
Well, he isn't called Masami Shinzo like in KK vs G, but Jun Tazaki appears in pretty much the same role in War of the Gargantuas.Terasawa wrote:Kaiju and characters? The only human or humanoid characters that crossover to/from the Godzilla series are the Shobijin.Ivo-goji wrote:Kaiju and characters from the Godzilla series show up in the Toho Frankenstein movies
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Re: Connecting The Showa Godzilla Continuity
Yep, that's the one- the start of Anguirus' really rotten streak of luck!TitanoGoji16 wrote:Yeah, it was Megalon. It begins with a narrator speaking about nuclear tests conducted in the Pacific Ocean, eventually telling us "The effects of the explosion were wide spread, even in far away Monster Island in the South Pacific." The island is shown to be engulfed in smoke, explosions all around, with Godzilla, Rodan, and Anguirus borderline panicking as all this chaos goes on around them. The ground cracks open as Godzilla and Anguirus are moving about (possibly trying to evacuate?) and Anguirus falls inside, disappearing until he pops up to fight Mechagodzilla the following year. Godzilla roars in defiance as the explosions get even worse and the film cuts to the title.
Monster Island did not make it past Godzilla vs. Megalon.
Thanks- I gotta bone up on my 70s showa, methinks.
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Re: Connecting The Showa Godzilla Continuity
But "pretty much the same role" doesn't mean it's the same character. It's an instance of a character actor playing the type of role he often played.Ivo-goji wrote:Well, he isn't called Masami Shinzo like in KK vs G, but Jun Tazaki appears in pretty much the same role in War of the Gargantuas.Terasawa wrote:Kaiju and characters? The only human or humanoid characters that crossover to/from the Godzilla series are the Shobijin.Ivo-goji wrote:Kaiju and characters from the Godzilla series show up in the Toho Frankenstein movies
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Re: Connecting The Showa Godzilla Continuity
^That's fair, but I'll always think of that character as General Shinzo.
Those works were made by different creators and explicitly established to take place in separate continuities by in-story exposition and/or authorial statements. The Showa era Toho kaiju films were mostly made by the same group of people, and there are no statements by the characters or creators that say anything about the films taking place in separate universes.
Continuity errors are just that, errors. They happen in series were continuity is unambiguous as well as anywhere else. That's not positive evidence that the films are unrelated.LamangoKaijura wrote:Another glaring error is the Moon was wrecked and destroyed in Gorath in 1980. In Monster of Monsters and DAM, the Moon is clearly OK.
That comparison is nonsensical, bordering on dishonesty.Man, Spider-Man in the Zombie Universe is the same Spider-Man in Earth 616? And the Z Universe one that Sandman blew the stomach out of after forcing himself down the gullet is the same one as 616? AND Japanese Spaida Man is the same as 616!? How come he doesn't use Leopordon to fight Green Goblin!?
Those works were made by different creators and explicitly established to take place in separate continuities by in-story exposition and/or authorial statements. The Showa era Toho kaiju films were mostly made by the same group of people, and there are no statements by the characters or creators that say anything about the films taking place in separate universes.
I didn't say he was.Also, no, Nick Adams isn't the same character in Invasion of the Astro Monster and Frankenstein vs Baragon.
It walks like a duck, it quacks like a duck...There's a reason Oodako was in Frankenstein films. Cause it's a different creature then the one Kong fought.
Citation needed.And the JSDF made maser canons in the Godzilla universe, later then they were introduced.
No, since while stock footage is used to represent the Masers in Godzilla movies, they also used original footage of Masers as well, at least in GvsGigan. Some of these points you're trying to raise are really random and vague.Unless you're saying Stock Footage is the reason the monsters all exist in the same universe? Cause then that's stupid.
The original version still says it takes place at the end of the 20th century, so.... What difference does that make? I didn't mention the year DAM took place.Also, it's worth noting, DAM's only taken place in 1999 in the dub.
Whether or not the Rodan in GTTHM is a separate animal from the original or not isn't really consequential. Kaiju survive things that would logically kill them all the time, they are fictitious beings.Rodan
Citation needed.Films like Varan, Frankenstein vs Baragon, Sanda vs Gaira, Mysterians, Dogora, Gorath, King Kong Escapes, Space Amoeba, and Atragon don't exist in the Godzilla Showa timeline, but kaiju, IE, Gorosaurus, Baragon, Varan, Kong, Oodako, and Manda exist in that world.
Last edited by Ivo-goji on Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:39 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Connecting The Showa Godzilla Continuity
In trying to argue that a bunch of commercial products produced for changing demographics over a long period of time with minimal explicit or meaningful references to each other must be read as part of a single, concrete continuity, the burden of proof is decidedly not on the people poking holes in the argument.
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Re: Connecting The Showa Godzilla Continuity
That's not what I'm saying though. My argument is that story overlaps in the Showa series exist, as in at all, not that Honda and Sekizawa had some kind of master document delineating what was canon and what was not.eabaker wrote:products.. with minimal explicit or meaningful references to each other must be read as part of a single, concrete continuity.
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Re: Connecting The Showa Godzilla Continuity
Is anyone denying that some story overlapping exists?Ivo-goji wrote:That's not what I'm saying though. My argument is that story overlaps in the Showa series exist, as in at all, not that Honda and Sekizawa had some kind of master document delineating what was canon and what was not.eabaker wrote:products.. with minimal explicit or meaningful references to each other must be read as part of a single, concrete continuity.
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Re: Connecting The Showa Godzilla Continuity
Oh man, you're wrong. They state it several dozen times in books and what not.The Showa era Toho kaiju films were mostly made by the same group of people, and there are no statements by the characters or creators that say anything about the films taking place in separate universes.
But, since I'm an asshole. I guess Shin Hyata is secretly a Kilaak since he was under their control in DAM as a Monster Land Researcher.
OK.Films like Varan, Frankenstein vs Baragon, Sanda vs Gaira, Mysterians, Dogora, Gorath, King Kong Escapes, Space Amoeba, and Atragon don't exist in the Godzilla Showa timeline, but kaiju, IE, Gorosaurus, Baragon, Varan, Kong, Oodako, and Manda exist in that world.
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HEY GUYS, GUESS WHAT! GODZILLA FROM MARVEL IS THE SAME AS SHOWA AND IS GFW AND IS SHIN GODZILLA! They're all Godzillas!It walks like a duck, it quacks like a duck...
Guess what, wrong again.Whether or not the Rodan in GTTHM is a separate animal from the original or not isn't really consequential. Kaiju survive things that would logically kill them all the time, they are fictitious beings.
Gorosaurus and Rodan are the only two Kaiju in the showa universe that are either labeled as the same generation as their original outting. Ghidorah too, but that was only in one book.
Everything else were like, Kumonga from 1967 and Kumonga from DAM. The 67 one is labeled just that, Generation I, while the DAM one was labeled Generation II.
There's 2 Godzillas
There's 2 Kongs
There's 2 Varans and so forth.
But keep trying to prove me wrong.
... If the Atragon was canon to the Godzilla universe... Why wouldn't they FUCKING USE IT WHEN THE XILIANS, KILAKKIANS, SIMEONS, SEATOPIANS OR NEBULIANS ATTACKED THE FUCKING EARTH.The Gohten from War in Space is a more advanced version of the Gotengo from Atragon, which ties War in Space into the Godzilla universe through the appearance of Manda in DAM and ToM.
They're NOT in the same universe.
You do realise that Gorath IS canon to a Godzilla series, just not the Showa Godzilla series right? And guess what? The moon wasn't destroyed in the Kiryu films either.Continuity errors are just that, errors. They happen in series were continuity is unambiguous as well as anywhere else. That's not positive evidence that the films are unrelated.
But I guess you think Go! Greenman and Go! Godman are canon to the Godzilla universe cause Gabara, Gorosaurus, and Minya appear in that series too.
Toho officially lists the following in the Godzilla series as 'Second Generations' aka, exclusive to the Godzilla Showa universe:
Gorosaurus, Manda, Baragon, Varan.
Last edited by LamangoKaijura on Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Connecting The Showa Godzilla Continuity
The same reason they don't use the masers against Hedorah, Mechagodzilla, or Titanosaurus, or during the Kilaak invasion? Or that Jet Jaguar or Zone Fighter don't help with Mechagodzilla and Titanosaurus? Or that Godzilla doesn't bring every single monster from Monster Island to help him fight Gigan and King Ghidorah instead of just Anguirus?LamangoKaijura wrote:... If the Atragon was canon to the Godzilla universe... Why wouldn't they skreeonking USE IT WHEN THE XILIANS, KILAKKIANS, SIMEONS, SEATOPIANS OR NEBULIANS ATTACKED THE skreeonking EARTH.The Gohten from War in Space is a more advanced version of the Gotengo from Atragon, which ties War in Space into the Godzilla universe through the appearance of Manda in DAM and ToM.
That sort of thing happens all the time.
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Re: Connecting The Showa Godzilla Continuity
I suppose its possible Jun Tazaki's general character just went through a lot of marriages over the course of a couple years (changing his last name each time) that just never ended well. Kidding assholes.Terasawa wrote:But "pretty much the same role" doesn't mean it's the same character. It's an instance of a character actor playing the type of role he often played.Ivo-goji wrote:Well, he isn't called Masami Shinzo like in KK vs G, but Jun Tazaki appears in pretty much the same role in War of the Gargantuas.Terasawa wrote:
Kaiju and characters? The only human or humanoid characters that crossover to/from the Godzilla series are the Shobijin.
I think its fine to try piecing together a lot of Toho's sci-fi outings from their golden age into a single shared universe, as they do tend to contain a lot of the same themes and of course, monsters and arsenal. I enjoy doing it myself, hence my frequent postings on the matter. But most of the "evidence" that's been provided here really doesn't count for shit, so I think the best option is to just let it be up to you what's canon and what's not and not force it upon others.
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Re: Connecting The Showa Godzilla Continuity
Regarding skepticism over shared TV universe where three identical Kaiju appeared, did they actually appear named as those characters, or were the suits just reused? If it is the former, then it would rather seem reasonable to assume in continuity, in the same way that Zone Fighter definitely is in continuity with the Showa Godzilla films, unless the nature of the show is clearly something like Sesame Street wherein characters from other franchises can appear but it is clearly not meant to be a serious thing.
If they just reused the suits as different kaiju, then no, there's no reason to believe that it's in continuity... but that's not the same situation as in DAM, so the comparison is not accurate. Unless of course a different point was being argued there, as I'verather lost track of what the actual core proposition being advanced by both sides is at this point.
So here's my position- the Showa Godzilla films, and apparently Zone fighter, do have a ongoing continuity. It is not a perfect continuity, and the unplanned additions to the previously-considered-complete series from the 70s don't harmonize as well as the others. But they started and ended consistently enough that I do indeed see a single continuity running through them. I don't necessarily think it extends outside of the Godzilla films, though. Much as I would like Mothra and Rodan to be canon, both seem to be kind of retold in Godzilla's series rather than direct sequels. If anything, I think that Rodin could be, whereas Mothra seems like it would not be. (Or else Japan really would not have learned its lesson from the public kidnapping of the shobijin last time). Regardless, it seems like for those, and a number of the other movies where kaiju from non-Godzilla films show up, they are adopting a premise very similar to the backstories given in the Kiryu films, which makes reference the events of showa films, but slightly altered. Essentially 'something very much like this happened, but the details are fuzzy and it didn't go down exactly as in the movie'. That would be the level of continuity status I would assign to non-Godzilla films with other kaiju from the Showa series. Meanwhile, I don't really see the non-kaiju sci-fi films as in continuity at all, but separate series without continuity ties to Godzilla.
So that's the position that I hold. If someone's saying there is no continuity between the Showa Godzilla films, I can't agree. There are certainly contradictions in the continuity, but that is true of every franchise. Heck, there are numerous plot holes between the original six films of the Star Wars saga, all of which were plotted out by one man. That doesn't mean that they aren't intended to be in continuity with one another.
On the other hand, if there's a claim that all kaiju films from Toho are in continuity, or even all Scifi films overall, I just don't think that's so. I do think it's reasonable to say that events of a similar-but-unspecified nature to those seen in the various kaiju films occurred within the Showa Godzilla universe, possibly with some elements removed or added, but not the exact events portrayed in the films that originated those kaiju.
But 'second generation from the originals', and 'new itterations exclusive to a separate universe from the originals' are not harmonious claims.
If they just reused the suits as different kaiju, then no, there's no reason to believe that it's in continuity... but that's not the same situation as in DAM, so the comparison is not accurate. Unless of course a different point was being argued there, as I'verather lost track of what the actual core proposition being advanced by both sides is at this point.
So here's my position- the Showa Godzilla films, and apparently Zone fighter, do have a ongoing continuity. It is not a perfect continuity, and the unplanned additions to the previously-considered-complete series from the 70s don't harmonize as well as the others. But they started and ended consistently enough that I do indeed see a single continuity running through them. I don't necessarily think it extends outside of the Godzilla films, though. Much as I would like Mothra and Rodan to be canon, both seem to be kind of retold in Godzilla's series rather than direct sequels. If anything, I think that Rodin could be, whereas Mothra seems like it would not be. (Or else Japan really would not have learned its lesson from the public kidnapping of the shobijin last time). Regardless, it seems like for those, and a number of the other movies where kaiju from non-Godzilla films show up, they are adopting a premise very similar to the backstories given in the Kiryu films, which makes reference the events of showa films, but slightly altered. Essentially 'something very much like this happened, but the details are fuzzy and it didn't go down exactly as in the movie'. That would be the level of continuity status I would assign to non-Godzilla films with other kaiju from the Showa series. Meanwhile, I don't really see the non-kaiju sci-fi films as in continuity at all, but separate series without continuity ties to Godzilla.
So that's the position that I hold. If someone's saying there is no continuity between the Showa Godzilla films, I can't agree. There are certainly contradictions in the continuity, but that is true of every franchise. Heck, there are numerous plot holes between the original six films of the Star Wars saga, all of which were plotted out by one man. That doesn't mean that they aren't intended to be in continuity with one another.
On the other hand, if there's a claim that all kaiju films from Toho are in continuity, or even all Scifi films overall, I just don't think that's so. I do think it's reasonable to say that events of a similar-but-unspecified nature to those seen in the various kaiju films occurred within the Showa Godzilla universe, possibly with some elements removed or added, but not the exact events portrayed in the films that originated those kaiju.
That is not actually a logical 'AKA'. If they're second generations, that would imply that their first generations are also canon to the same universe. If they were alternate iterations exclusive to the showa Godzilla timeline, that would be something else. So the question is what Toho's actual statement is.Toho officially lists the following in the Godzilla series as 'Second Generations' aka, exclusive to the Godzilla Showa universe:
Gorosaurus, Manda, Baragon, Varan.
But 'second generation from the originals', and 'new itterations exclusive to a separate universe from the originals' are not harmonious claims.
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- LamangoKaijura
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Re: Connecting The Showa Godzilla Continuity
Gabara definitely was.Regarding skepticism over shared TV universe where three identical Kaiju appeared, did they actually appear named as those characters, or were the suits just reused?
And as for the second generation thing, it mainly means suits and or props.
But I don't know why everyone wants all these movies connected. It wouldn't make sense in a larger scale of things. There was no volcano out in Tokyo Bay due to the Gargantuas Fighting. The Moon's still around after being destroyed in Gorath. Mankind doesn't use Markilite canons or the super zeplins or Gotengo to defend from the aliens. Earth in 1965 treats the Xillians as the first ever aliens to invade Earth. Ghidorah appearing as the 'first space monster' kinda throws Dogora out the window. "The people knew who King Kong was! So Kong Escapes must be canon!" People knew who Kong was in 1970's too. And that film isn't related in any way to the 33 or 62 Kong. "Oodako was in War of the Gargantuas! It must be the same Oodako that fought Kong!" Octopi are a very common kaiju. Do we say the It Came from Beneath the Sea Octopus is Oodako? The one from the animated series, is THAT Oodako? No.
Someone in here even said 'why not give the monsters different origin stories' but then called my comparison to Spider-Man laughable. All Spider-mans, unless proven otherwise, have had the same origin story. Almost 85 percent of them have been bitten by a radio active spider in some way, but due to the events in the universe they live in, they have a separate path. IE: Cannibal Spider-Man, Zombie-Spider-Man, ect.
Books even state that the Baragon in DAM, and the Varan in DAM, are different and unrelated to their 65 and 57 selves, with Baragon being five meters shorter and raised by Rodan of all things, and Varan being a literal fat flying baby.
Even Rodan and Mothra's inclusion to the Showa universe is sketchy at best. No mention of Rodan's attack, having a mate, or the Meganuron were mentioned at all in the Showa Timeline. Again, I point out, both Rodans took nose dives deep into a flowing lava stream, and some books even state they BOTH die. And this happens on the outside of Mt. Aso. In Ghidorah, a Rodan comes out of the crater. You'd think after what, 9 years, people would notice the huge burn victim Pterodactyl limping its way into the volcano and burying himself in the crust.
Mothra? Infant Island is a vast jungle of a place, where the nuclear testing actually sped up plant growth so much that some plants developed a taste of human blood. In Mothra vs Godzilla? EVERYTHING IS DEAD. Mothra shrank, and like someone just mentioned, why didn't they learn from the last time they kidnapped the fairies?
So the Godzilla showa timeline is like this.
Gojira
Godzilla raids Again, direct sequel
King Kong vs Godzilla, Godzilla, at the end of GRA, trapped in ice, broke free of ice in KKvsG
Mothra vs Godzilla, the people know of Godzilla's rampages, and the common theory that his 2 year coma got him washed inland during a typhoon.
Ghidrah the three headed monster, direct sequel to MvsG
Invasion of the Astromonster, direct sequel, Godzilla and Rodan plummet into the ocean with Ghidorah. This is important.
Godzilla vs Ebirah, Godzilla is found sleeping on an island, people know of him, and this marks the way of 'lazy ass godzilla', first time Godzilla actually attacks a Nuclear facility
Son of Godzilla, after the island of Letchi is nuked, Godzilla wanders the ocean, answers Minya's distress call.
Godzilla vs Hedorah, toys of Godzilla and Ghidorah are seen, the child knows of Godzilla and sees him as a hero.
Godzilla vs Gigan, Godzilla still shows wounds from fighting Hedorah (AKA, Toho's new staff being to lazy to build a new suit or repair the old one)
Godzilla vs Megalon, direct sequel, Gigan and Godzilla clearly know each other as proven by the stand off at the start of their fight.
ZoneFighter, Godzilla, Ghidorah, and Gigan all appear in this. Gigan is killed.
Godzilla vs MechaGodzilla, people know of Godzilla, mention Anguirus is Godzilla's alley as he was in Godzilla vs Gigan, flashback of King Ghidorah is used as a 'monster will rise up to destroy the people'.
Terror of MechaGodzilla, direct sequel.
Destroy All Monsters, Monster Land is established in the 70s after a typhoon wiped out the security on Monster Island, which was said to have security in Godzilla vs Gigan.
Now this is where it gets interesting. Katsura clearly name drops Manda. Who, after all this time, was seen only in Ichiro's dream on Monster Island. But guess what? Manda's one of the inmates on Monster Island thanks to the monster parade in Godzilla vs Gigan. So Manda attacked a city at one point. Most likely in 1968, the year Destroy all Monsters is filmed, but not the same year in the plot. Another thing Godzilla vs Gigan showed was, while Manda, and Gorosaurus, were on Monster Island, Varan and Baragon were not.
Last edited by LamangoKaijura on Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Imagine getting angry your out of date and obsolete stats for rubber suit monsters were 'stolen'.