Connecting The Showa Godzilla Continuity

[PitchBlackProgress]

There's been some debate among fans on whether or not the original Godzilla series connects through the various entries and if it can truly be considered a serial whole. I thought a thread devoted to that descussion would be interesting.
Discuss below what you think on the matter, and if you've found any evidence that links these films to one another.

This is what I've found...

* Godzilla Raids Again connects itself to the previous film, "Gojira", by having a returning character in Doctor Yamane.
Dr. Yamane also proclaims this is a second Godzilla type monster.

* King Kong vs. Godzilla connects itself to the previous film, "Godzilla Raids Again", by having Godzilla breaking out of the icy tomb he was trapped in at the end of the previous film.

* Ghidrah, The Three Headed Monster connects itself to the previous film, "Godzilla vs. The Thing", by having a reporter claim that Godzilla and Mothra had already fought, and Godzilla lost that fight.
The film also connects itself to the film "Rodan" by having Rodan emerge from the volcano they died in during the climax of "Rodan".

* Monster Zero connects itself to the previous film, "Ghidrah, The Three Headed Monster", by having the Planet X controller claim Rodan and Godzilla are needed to defeat King Ghidorah, the two kaiju responsible for beating Ghidorah in the previous film.

* Godzilla vs. Megalon connects itself to the previous film, "Godzilla vs. Gigan", by having Seatopia call upon Nebula Space Hunter M for assistance.

* Terror Of Mechagodzilla connects itself to the previous film, "Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla", by showing scenes from the previous entry during the opening credits.
The remains of Mechagodzilla are being searched for.
The Black Hole aliens return.

[Ivo-goji]

Godzilla vs Mechagodzilla has the characters mention that Anguirus is Godzilla's ally, and the only film that establishes that is Godzilla vs Gigan, so these two films are set in the same world, and by that token Godzilla vs Megalon and Terror of Mechagodzilla are set in the same world.

Terror of Mechagodzilla mentions and shows flashbacks to the rampages of King Ghidorah (Ghidorah The Three Headed Monster), Rodan (Godzilla vs Monster Zero), and Manda (Atragon), linking all of these films to ToM.

Godzilla, Gigan, and King Ghidorah all appear in Zone Fighter, and their film appearances are alluded to, which ties Zone Fighter into the movie continuity.

Godzilla vs Gigan and Godzilla vs Megalon show Godzilla living on Monster Island. This ties these films to Son of Godzilla and Godzilla's Revenge, which introduced Monster Island. So those films are in continuity as well.

Godzilla's Revenge features kaiju like Ebirah and Gorosaurus, and shows Godzilla fighting the Red Bamboo. This ties that film into Godzilla vs the Sea Monster and Destroy All Monsters.

Destroy All Monsters crosses over Godzilla with Manda (Atragon), Baragon (Frankenstein vs Baragon), Gorosaurus (King Kong Escapes), and reinforces the link with Mothra and Rodan.

Ghidorah the Three Headed Monster references Rodan's original film and the events of Mothra vs Godzilla. Mothra vs Godzilla alludes to Mothra's original film and to King Kong vs Godzilla, which alludes to Godzilla Raids Again, which is a sequel to G54.

The Atomic Heat Cannon seen in Mothra was introduced in Battle in Outer Space, which was a sequel to The Mysterians, which ties those films into the Godzilla universe.

The Maser seen in Godzilla vs Gigan was first introduced in War of the Gargantuas, which is also a sequel to Frankenstein vs Baragon, further tying those films to the Godzilla universe.

The Gohten from War in Space is a more advanced version of the Gotengo from Atragon, which ties War in Space into the Godzilla universe through the appearance of Manda in DAM and ToM.

Space Station Terra appears in both War in Space and Gorath, which ties Gorath to the larger science fiction universe Godzilla inhabits.

The video game Godzilla, Monster of Monsters! features references to all of the above films as well as Dogora, Matango, Space Amoeba, and Godzilla vs Hedorah, so there's a substantiated connection between basically all of Toho's Showa era science fiction movies.

[MaxRebo320]

So bottom line, they are all within the same continuity even if they don't always follow the same story. Why is that so hard for some people to understand?

[Ivo-goji]

But the real question is, which version of Frankenstein is the backstory for Frankenstein vs Baragon?

[eabaker]

Godzilla movies in general, and especially in the Showa era, function on the basic premise that everything is canon, and can be implicitly or explicitly in or out of continuity as the story requires.

The Showa series, as a whole, has no specific continuity, nor is anything specifically outside of continuity. It's a non-factor.

[Ivo-goji]

For ease of reference, I've made a chart:

[tlyon2]

For ease of reference, I've made a chart:

I like this chart did you also include the brief connections that some of the tie-ins that show up in Ghidorah The Three Headed Monster and Invasion Of The Astro Monster? Like the toy spaceship model of the Natals that shows up twice and a picture in the background of the early stage of Dogora for GTTHM?

As for IOTAM there is a brief cameo of the Space Station Delta from Gorath and just for the record how is this one not listed on Toho Kingdom site?

There is no picture or any real info on it!

[LegendZilla]

In my humble opinion, this thread is giving the Showa series a bit too much credit in terms of a clear and stable continuity. If any of you recall, notable example of inconsistencies can be found in both Showa Mechagodzilla films. In the first film it was clear that the aliens controlling Mechagodzilla were apes and the aforementioned mech was demolished in Okinawa. Just one film later the location is changed according to the commentary of the Classic Media DVD from 2007 and the aliens are no longer apes, but rather they resemble horribly-burned humans. Whether Godzilla's Revenge is in its own universe where Godzilla is fictional is up for debate.

[Billzilla1974]

I think the Showa timeline is pretty stable, at least in the first half. I'm not sure if the space operas & Gorath are part of it, and I thought Revenge wasn't included in the timeline due to all of the monster scenes being only in a kid's imagination.
Also DAM took place at the end of 20th century/1999 so it should be the last event on the chart.
Would the NES really be part of the Showa timeline? The designs are clearly Showa based, but I have doubts that the game is canon to the Showa series.

[Ivo-goji]

The films are listed by year of release.

Putting DAM in the middle also made it easier to connect lines like that than putting it at the bottom.

The NES game's story essentially presents it as a sequel to DAM, so I consider it part of Showa history, but my main purpose for including it on the chart is that it ties Godzilla to other science fiction films from the same era.

[LSD Jellyfish]

Godzilla movies in general, and especially in the Showa era, function on the basic premise that everything is canon, and can be implicitly or explicitly in or out of continuity as the story requires.

The Showa series, as a whole, has no specific continuity, nor is anything specifically outside of continuity. It's a non-factor.

I agree with this the most, with seemingly major events sometimes explicitly referenced or completely ignored.

If desired though, you can just completely ignore extraneous films, and have a “pure” Godzilla cannon that only includes the Godzilla entries. I don’t think anything ever explicitly or severely contradictions anything. Just assume that monsters like Rodan, appeared in the Godzilla timeline off screen and prior to the appearance and you’re good.

Funnily enough, Godzilla’s Revenge can just encompass all the Godzilla movies and state that everything within the previous films are literally just movies.

[Goji]

Terror of Mechagodzilla mentions and shows flashbacks to the rampages of King Ghidorah (Ghidorah The Three Headed Monster), Rodan (Godzilla vs Monster Zero), and Manda (Atragon), linking all of these films to ToM.

That footage of Manda is from DAM, though. There's no question that Manda himself is part of the Showa Godzilla continuity by the time DAM happens, but It's funny because TOMG uses stock footage from an attack that doesn't happen for another 24 years, lol. Are we supposed to assume that Manda attacked Japan at a different time? Maybe, but I think the realistic answer is that they just didn't care enough when writing it and picking the footage they wanted to use for said scene.

Godzilla vs Gigan and Godzilla vs Megalon show Godzilla living on Monster Island. This ties these films to Son of Godzilla and Godzilla's Revenge, which introduced Monster Island. So those films are in continuity as well.

Sollgel island from Son of Godzilla isn't Monster Island, but you already know that.

The problem here is that "Monster Island" from G's Revenge (which might just be Ichiro's imagination) and the '70's films was basically a stand-in for Monsterland from DAM; which was supposed to be the last Godzilla film. Monster Island seems to basically blend Sollgel Island and Monsterland together, as it's inhabited by Kamacuras (Kamacurai?) and Kumonga, which were native to Sollgel island until they were eventually moved to Monsterland. I think they just liked the concept, so they reworked it to fit these later films' narrative. Basically, it's just a random island (not necessarily one of the Ogasawara Islands) inhabited by most of the Earth monsters. The problem is, why would they all be there if they weren't brought to and confined there like they were in DAM at Monsterland? It doesn't really make sense, but I think that's the point. Continuity wasn't a factor when the '70's films (especially) were being put together.

Godzilla's Revenge features kaiju like Ebirah and Gorosaurus, and shows Godzilla fighting the Red Bamboo. This ties that film into Godzilla vs the Sea Monster and Destroy All Monsters.

All of this stuff is in Ichiro's imagination though, and it's unclear if it's because he's seen them in Godzilla movies, or because they exist in real life. There's a lot to speculate about that film's intention, if it's meant to be meta, or what, so I think it's inconclusive. Ichiro has a Godzilla figure..but is that because Godzilla exists in real life, or because Godzilla movies are a thing, and he's a fan?

Destroy All Monsters crosses over Godzilla with Manda (Atragon), Baragon (Frankenstein vs Baragon), Gorosaurus (King Kong Escapes), and reinforces the link with Mothra and Rodan.

The only way King Kong Escapes could be considered in the same continuity with the Showa Godzilla series is if it's assumed that another much smaller Kong exists on a completely different island. Also the movie starts off with Kong being considered a myth, because nobody has actually seen him before. That wouldn't be the case if everyone remembered the giant Kong that battled Godzilla only four years earlier.

KKE only works as a one shot. It's in it's own continuity. The 'everything and the kitchen' sink approach was used for DAM because it was originally supposed to be the last Godzilla film, so they took a look at all of their kaiju costumes and props that were still in good shape in storage, and included them into the screenplay for that reason alone. Continuity wasn't considered here.

Ghidorah the Three Headed Monster references Rodan's original film and the events of Mothra vs Godzilla. Mothra vs Godzilla alludes to Mothra's original film and to King Kong vs Godzilla, which alludes to Godzilla Raids Again, which is a sequel to G54.

When does MvG allude to KKvG? I have no recollection of this.

The video game Godzilla, Monster of Monsters! features references to all of the above films as well as Dogora, Matango, Space Amoeba, and Godzilla vs Hedorah, so there's a substantiated connection between basically all of Toho's Showa era science fiction movies.

This is reaaaally reaching, I'm sorry. It's a video game from the late '80s. I'm sure someone on the dev team was just a big fan, and threw in those references for fun. It doesn't suggest anything of the sort.

As for reoccurring JSDF tech, I think this was Toho just reusing props from recent films. If people want to suggest that those films are connected in their own head canon, that's fine, but I seriously doubt that was the intention.

[Ivo-goji]

That footage of Manda is from DAM, though.

The characters in the film cannot see which stock footage is being used of course, so that has no particular significance, in story they can't be talking about anything other than Manda's first appearance.

Sollgel island from Son of Godzilla isn't Monster Island, but you already know that

Yes it is. Son of Godzilla's Japanese title is Monster Island's Decisive Battle: Son of Godzilla. The Monster Island seen throughout the Showa series is Sollgel Island, a place where Godzilla and other monsters live of their own free will and can leave whenever they want. Monsterland only appears in DAM because DAM takes place in the future, when humanity has the resources to actually contain the monsters. It's completely straightforward, the films that take place chronologically prior to DAM feature the location introduced earlier in Son of Godzilla, provided we know Sollgel Island is also called Monster Island.

Continuity wasn't a factor

The evidence onscreen doesn't support that, and since I don't claim mind reading powers I don't attempt to guess what philosophy might have guided the filmmakers, I only look at what happens in the films themselves.

All of this stuff is in Ichiro's imagination though, and it's unclear if it's because he's seen them in Godzilla movies, or because they exist in real life. There's a lot to speculate about that film's intention, if it's meant to be meta, or what, so I think it's inconclusive. Ichiro has a Godzilla figure..but is that because Godzilla exists in real life, or because Godzilla movies are a thing, and he's a fan?

By itself, whether or not Godzilla's Revenge is a dream or reality is ambiguous. However the subsequent films Godzilla vs Hedorah and Godzilla vs Gigan essentially follow up on that movie, rather than ignoring it as we would expect if it were just a dream. For example we see that children play with kaiju toys in GvsH, so in that context Ichiro having Godzilla figures is compatible with a world where Godzilla is real. The Monster Island seen in Godzilla vs Gigan is depicted the same way it was in Revenge. Even Ichiro's view that Godzilla is a heroic kaiju becomes true, as while Godzilla had appeared in non-villainous roles before that point, its only after Revenge that he starts behaving as a proactive defender of the Earth, seeking out Hedorah and Gigan of his own volition. Revenge can support either interpretation of whether or not Godzilla is real within its own narrative, but as far as the story from GvsH onward is concerned Revenge is set in a world where kaiju are real.

The only way King Kong Escapes could be considered in the same continuity with the Showa Godzilla series is if it's assumed that another much smaller Kong exists on a completely different island.

And? There are multiple Godzillas running around, multiple Kongs should be no surprise.

Not that Toho's Kong changing size is a big deal. The original 1933 King Kong was a different size in every other scene, and Toho kaiju changed size in between films all the time (look at Mothra).

Also the movie starts off with Kong being considered a myth, because nobody has actually seen him before.

Does it though? Nelson, Dr. Hu, and Madame Piranha knew perfectly well who Kong is and exhibit no skepticism about the ape's size and strength. Nelson studied him for years apparently and Hu is building a robot in his image. Only Susan is incredulous about Kong at first. Mondo Island is clearly a new discovery, but Kong's existence seems widely accepted by most people already. By itself the film's relationship to the rest of the Showa series could go either way, but in the context of Gorosaurus reappearing in Godzilla films, the logical interpretation is that KKE is part of the same universe.

Continuity wasn't considered here.

Not a fan of mind reading.

When does MvG allude to KKvG? I have no recollection of this.

Not directly, but Godzilla's sudden appearance after being washed ashore unconscious in a typhoon is clearly an allusion to his falling into the sea after being defeated by Kong in the previous film, just like his emerging from an iceberg in that film was an allusion to his defeat in Raids Again.

This is reaaaally reaching, I'm sorry. It's a video game from the late '80s. I'm sure someone on the dev team was just a big fan, and threw in those references for fun. It doesn't suggest anything of the sort.

I included the game more for fun than anything else- that's why I had it only be represented by a dotted line on the chart earlier-, but the storyline of the game makes overt reference to DAM and Monster Zero in addition to the many kaiju and alien tech reappearances, so while GMM might not literally be part of the Showa film's continuity, those films are part of the game's continuity.

As for reoccurring JSDF tech, I think this was Toho just reusing props from recent films. If people want to suggest that those films are connected in their own head canon, that's fine, but I seriously doubt that was the intention.

I see no particular reason to treat technology any differently than human characters or kaiju. GTTHM sets a precedent for their kaiju films being set in a larger interconnected universe, and the way weapons and spacecraft crossover from one movie to another is consistent with that precedent. Unless a director or screenwriter has actually said something to the contrary one would assume the same storytelling approach that allowed Mothra and Rodan to appear in Godzilla films was in play when Maser Cannons started appearing in Godzilla films.

[MaxRebo320]

The characters in the film cannot see which stock footage is being used of course, so that has no particular significance, in story they can't be talking about anything other than Manda's first appearance.

Or you know, the Manda seen in DAM attacked at some point prior to TOMG. That's what I brush it off as, though I have to agree that they most likely didn't think the audience would notice/care.

Regarding KKE's place in the potential timeline, I've had a theory for a while that the film is set some time into the future (As after all, there are hovercars and shit) and Kong's status as a myth is due to him only appearing once in 1962 and quickly being overshadowed by all the monsters that followed. Mechani Kong could have been designed as a weapon to combat the various monsters. The Kong in it is probably just a different one (Perhaps the offspring of the original?), though I would be willing to look past the whole sizing thing as scale tends to be pretty inconsistent in these movies anyways.

[Goji]

The characters in the film cannot see which stock footage is being used of course, so that has no particular significance, in story they can't be talking about anything other than Manda's first appearance.

Sure, why not.

Yes it is. Son of Godzilla's Japanese title is Monster Island's Decisive Battle: Son of Godzilla. The Monster Island seen throughout the Showa series is Sollgel Island

Is there a source for this? I mean, yeah, it's "an island of monsters", but whether or not "Monster Island" from the other films is literally supposed to be the same place isn't something I've seen confirmation of anywhere. Who knows, maybe it's covered in a Japanese book that you're knowledgeable about, and I'm not. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt on this one, and not just assume it's some head canon nonsense. It makes enough sense, anyway.

And? There are multiple Godzillas running around, multiple Kongs should be no surprise.

Not that Toho's Kong changing size is a big deal. The original 1933 King Kong was a different size in every other scene, and Toho kaiju changed size in between films all the time (look at Mothra).

Yeah, there are multiple Showa Godzilla's, but none of them were over 100 feet taller than the other.

And yeah, Kong changes sizes in various scenes in his film debut, but this was more or less a SFX error. It's not like Kong was changing size at his own discretion. In any case, it doesn't help your argument (Kong isn't Jet Jaguar).

KKE is essentially a live action version of the King Kong cartoon, where Kong was more or less the same size he was in 1933. He was 25 feet tall this time because that's the size he was in the cartoon..not because he's some long lost, smaller relative of the Kong from Farou Island. Forcing it to be something more, as some kind of extension of the Showa Godzilla universe, is just silly.

Does it though? Nelson, Dr. Hu, and Madame Piranha knew perfectly well who Kong is and exhibit no skepticism about the ape's size and strength. Nelson studied him for years apparently and Hu is building a robot in his image. Only Susan is incredulous about Kong at first. Mondo Island is clearly a new discovery, but Kong's existence seems widely accepted by most people already.

And yet, none of that implies that King Kong vs. Godzilla actually happened, just that the idea of Kong existing isn't preposterous to those individuals.

By itself the film's relationship to the rest of the Showa series could go either way

Yes.

but in the context of Gorosaurus reappearing in Godzilla films, the logical interpretation is that KKE is part of the same universe.

Or that the suit was only a few months old, and they needed more monsters on the battlefield that didn't require intense wirework, which is the actual reason.

Your paragraph on Ichiro was really solid, and your argument for Monster Island is strong, but you're really reaching with some of this KKE stuff, man. I stand by the belief that some of monsters that appeared DAM were used because it was convenient to do so, and because that film was supposed to be the culmination of everything kaiju-eiga that came before; even films that weren't Godzilla films. The intent was clearly "Let's make one more Godzilla film, and let's see what monster suits/props/marionettes we can reuse and refurbish easily in the process", and not "Let's have Manda, Baragon, Gorosaurus and Varan in there so that we finally establish that Atragon, Frankenstein vs. Baragon, King Kong Escapes and Giant Monster Varan are all part of the Showa Godzilla continuity".

[LamangoKaijura]

OK. So here's the scoop. A big one.
Godzilla's universe is it's own reality. The only confirmed crossover things to happen are Mothra from 1961 and Rodan from 1956.
The Manda, Kong, Gorosaurus, Baragon, Varan, and others appearing in in DAM and what not? Those aren't the same ones from their original films.
Kong from 1962 grew stronger from electricity.
Kong from 1967 ran away from it after zapping himself on a power line.

Manda from 1963 was frozen to a rock under the ocean and most likely destroyed when Mu was.
Manda from DAM is terrestrial and never once ventures into the ocean.

Varan from 1958 ate two bombs that could 'blow up mountains' and exploded in the ocean.
Varan from DAM is a fat (a book calls him 'slightly obese) baby, only 10 meters tall.

Baragon from 1965 had his neck snapped.
Baragon from DAM was slightly smaller, and was raised by Rodan according to one book.

Gorosaurus from KKE is smaller and weighs less.
Gorosaurus in DAM can Burrow, is the same size as Godzilla, and could take down King Ghidorah, not once, but twice. The only reason Gorosaurus is in DAM at all is because the Maguma suit was so tattered and the Ebirah suit was mold by 68.

The Monster Island seen throughout the Showa series is Sollgel Island

Except Oshagowara was used for Monster Land...

Does it though? Nelson, Dr. Hu, and Madame Piranha knew perfectly well who Kong is and exhibit no skepticism about the ape's size and strength.

So did the Native. What's your point?

It goes like this. And it's a general rule basically. "If it's not stated as happening, then it didn't happen.'

So no, the films aren't related, it's an instance of same monster, different universe.

As for the Monster of Monster things... Those...aren't canon.
Why would the Xillians have Moguera, who was built by the Mysterians, which probably died out by the time 19XX rolled around. More MechaGodzilla? Or Gigan? Why would they go through the trouble of reviving Gezora, who was weak to fire?

[TitanoGoji16]

The Monster Island seen throughout the Showa series is Sollgel Island

Except Oshagowara was used for Monster Land...

Of course. Sollgel/Monster Island was destroyed (or at least made inhospitable) by all the nuclear tests and earthquakes in 1973. They had to find a new island after that.

[LamangoKaijura]

Another glaring error is the Moon was wrecked and destroyed in Gorath in 1980. In Monster of Monsters and DAM, the Moon is clearly OK.

Of course. Sollgel/Monster Island was destroyed (or at least made inhospitable) by all the nuclear tests and earthquakes in 1973.

So an island with not one, but two radioactive absorbing dinosaurs, was made inhospitable by nuclear test, and Earthquakes, even though Baragon, Anguirus and Gorosaurus can burrow.

According to DAM, a Typhoon broke the island before, 20 years prior to the film.

[Zarm]

Another glaring error is the Moon was wrecked and destroyed in Gorath in 1980. In Monster of Monsters and DAM, the Moon is clearly OK.

Of course. Sollgel/Monster Island was destroyed (or at least made inhospitable) by all the nuclear tests and earthquakes in 1973.

So an island with not one, but two radioactive absorbing dinosaurs, was made inhospitable by nuclear test, and Earthquakes, even though Baragon, Anguirus and Gorosaurus can burrow.

According to DAM, a Typhoon broke the island before, 20 years prior to the film.

Didn't we kinda see its destruction in the opening of- was it vs. Megalon, I think?

[TitanoGoji16]

Of course. Sollgel/Monster Island was destroyed (or at least made inhospitable) by all the nuclear tests and earthquakes in 1973.

So an island with not one, but two radioactive absorbing dinosaurs, was made inhospitable by nuclear test, and Earthquakes, even though Baragon, Anguirus and Gorosaurus can burrow.

Why is this hard to believe? Just going off of the scene alone, it's obvious it wasn't just a minor earthquake. There were massive explosions everywhere and crevasses were opening in the ground so large that kaiju were falling into them.

It doesn't sound like Monster Island was in the best shape after that.