Talkback Thread #4: Mothra vs. Godzilla (1964)

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Re: Talkback Thread #4: Mothra vs. Godzilla (1964)

Postby Goji » Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:10 am

Ivo-goji wrote:^Not necessarily? This movie really is more of a sequel to Mothra than KKvsG, and Godzilla had only enjoyed top billing in two of the four films he'd appeared in so far. KKvsG though GvsM0 were essentially crossover movies featuring Godzilla rather than "Godzilla movies". Toho could very well have decided to focus on Mothra after GTTHM, if not for the fact that Godzilla had proven the more lucrative property, among other factors (being a man in a suit instead of a puppet, for instance).

Yeah, one could make the argument that Raids Again is the only true Godzilla sequel until maybe Monster Zero (since Ghidorah is more or less another crossover film), since a lot of these retroactively became "part of the Godzilla series" later on, but I can see it both ways. They're just as much "Godzilla movies" as they are "Toho crossovers".

They could have had Mothra in Godzilla's role, yeah, but that didn't happen. A giant Moth just doesn't have the same appeal as a mutated dinosaur-like creature with radioactive breath, and despite her overall popularity, Tomoyuki Tanaka knew better. Granted, she got her own short lived series 40 years later where she played that exact role, but you can imagine if there were 15 Showa Mothra films? I definitely can't. Marionettes and/or motorized worms can't emote the same way a man in a rubber suit can, especially not with '60s techniques, so it was a good call to make her a reoccurring character, instead.

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Re: Talkback Thread #4: Mothra vs. Godzilla (1964)

Postby Ivo-goji » Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:37 pm

It's interesting to think about, because Godzilla vs the Sea Monster was supposed to be a Kong film, and if that had happened the idea to create Son of Godzilla might never have come up.

While I agree Mothra would have been awkward to build a series around, it would have been relatively simple to keep creating crossover movies and/or stand alone movies like Space Amoeba. Possibly that's what Toho initially planned on doing. The decision to make Godzilla the hero of their monster franchise might not have happened if he never subbed for Kong in GvsSM.

Could have lead to a weird scenario where Toho conducted it's later Showa films more like their Golden Age movies; Banno creating a solo Hedorah project, Godzilla returning to an antagonist role for one of the alien invasion stories, Jet Jaguar actually being the title character of his debut film, or stuff like that.
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Re: Talkback Thread #4: Mothra vs. Godzilla (1964)

Postby LSD Jellyfish » Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:29 pm

I kinda doubt the idea the Godzilla series would’ve never been a thing if it wasn’t for Godzilla being subbed in for Kong. My reasoning is while it’s true the early Toho films were all crossovers, like KKVG/GVM/and GTTHM, the only consistent theme in all of them is Godzilla. There isn’t a movie where Rodan crosses over with Varan, or Mothra crosses over with Ghidorah, independently of any of these entries.

Godzilla was the only monster to ever receive a proper sequel. The only three Toho sequels beyond the Godzilla series in the showa era are:

King Kong Escapes (that completely ignores KKVG)
Battle for Outerspace (supposed to be a sequel to Atragon, but minus a few scarce plot points it can be completely seperated.
WOTG: The most direct sequel, but even then Toho tried to bury it, as in you don’t have to see FVB, and only briefly is Frankenstein mentioned.

Yeah early Toho had a plethora of independent sci-fi flicks, like Matango and original stuff like Varan, Rodan and Mothra before crossing over, but in the end Godzilla was still chosen as the lead monster after the success of the original and KKVG. Especially considering that Godzilla was supposed to fight Frankenstein, originally. Godzilla was their monster, that they wanted to develop a franchise based on.
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Re: Talkback Thread #4: Mothra vs. Godzilla (1964)

Postby Ivo-goji » Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:48 pm

Mothra was a constant from her debut film to GvsSM, and the follow up to that movie could have just as easily been about her. One could make the case that it was Son of Godzilla where Godzilla became the focus of the series, as it was that film where he developed into a fully heroic kaiju, in addition to becoming the title character of the feature and not just a co-star. If not for that characterization shift, the post-DAM Showa series would have played out very differently, even if Toho did still decide to focus on Godzilla.

LSD Jellyfish wrote:Battle for Outerspace (supposed to be a sequel to Atragon, but minus a few scarce plot points it can be completely seperated

Er, don't you mean The Mysterians? That's the only film Battle in Outer Space is generally considered a sequel to.


Unless you're talking about War in Space, the only connection with Atragon being the Gotengo serves as a basis for the Gohten.
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Re: Talkback Thread #4: Mothra vs. Godzilla (1964)

Postby LSD Jellyfish » Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:12 pm

Yeah but Mothra wasn’t in King Kong vs Godzilla or Astro Monster. In Godzilla vs Sea Monster/Ebirah the film really has nothing to do with her. She’s used as a plot device to get the people off the island, and to have a brief scuffle with Godzilla. I’m not trying to undermine Mothra here, it’s clear she was popular, but I don’t see the same thing a lot of people are seeing with a Mothra series.

I’d argue that the film that made the Godzilla series was definitely KKVG, and because it exposed and made Godzilla way more popular, and also brought him out of the proto-showa era (G54/GRA) and into the proper early showa. It also was the first movie to really nail the monster versus monster dynamic.

People also seem to want to ignore GRA for some reason, if that film didn’t exist I’d see the argument way more. It’s clear just by that movie Toho wanted more Gojira and more profits from him.

And yeah I mixed up Mysterians and Atragon whoops. But that also kinda emphasizes the point, a lot of the Toho sequels are pretty much unrelated.
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Re: Talkback Thread #4: Mothra vs. Godzilla (1964)

Postby edgaguirus » Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:38 pm

I agree about KK vs G. After GRA it was a series of solo films without Godzilla, and after KK vs G, the Godzilla franchise took off.

Mothra's presence, though, doesn't hurt. Mothra is one of the most popular of the monsters. Mothra does add something to the movies, even though
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Re: Talkback Thread #4: Mothra vs. Godzilla (1964)

Postby kamilleblu » Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:06 am

edgaguirus wrote:It didn't seem like an entire night to me. I'd estimate, based on when the larva arrived on the island after Godzilla, that it was probably a half hour at most.

Another military confrontation with Godzilla takes place at night some point following Mothra's sacrifice. Immediately afterwards we cut back to daylight and the main characters are still on the beach wearing the same attire they were the last time we saw them.

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Re: Talkback Thread #4: Mothra vs. Godzilla (1964)

Postby KaijuCanuck » Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:54 pm

How exactly did Godzilla get underground? I’ve heard two explanations 1. He’s washed ashore by the storm at the beginning, and 2. He was buried by the volcanic eruption at the end of KKvG and somehow ended up there.

The first explanation sounds much more plausible, but the second ties it to the previous film. I wish I could remember where I heard that one...
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Re: Talkback Thread #4: Mothra vs. Godzilla (1964)

Postby Maritonic » Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:56 pm

At the end of KKvG, the ground rumbles and the characters exclaim "An earthquake!". Now, I mean, you could take this as Kong and Godzilla fighting, or maybe Godzilla burrowed into the ground as Kong swam away. Granted, we don't ever see Godzilla burrow again (if memory serves, I'm getting old) so it's hard to assume he did something he doesn't really do...but that's how I've always taken it; That he just went underground and then in MvG the ground was loosened by the storm and flooding.
But hey, I'm probably wrong. :)
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Re: Talkback Thread #4: Mothra vs. Godzilla (1964)

Postby Godzillian » Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:44 pm

KaijuCanuck wrote:How exactly did Godzilla get underground? I’ve heard two explanations 1. He’s washed ashore by the storm at the beginning, and 2. He was buried by the volcanic eruption at the end of KKvG and somehow ended up there.

The first explanation sounds much more plausible, but the second ties it to the previous film. I wish I could remember where I heard that one...

Early scripts have him washing up on shore from the storm so it's likely he just got washed in with the tidal surge and was burried.
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Re: Talkback Thread #4: Mothra vs. Godzilla (1964)

Postby Ivo-goji » Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:04 pm

The typhoon and subsequent draining of the flood waters take up too much screen time to not be what deposited Godzilla there. The film would have skimmed over that part much more quickly if we weren't supposed to make the connection.
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Re: Talkback Thread #4: Mothra vs. Godzilla (1964)

Postby Zarm » Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:29 pm

Maritonic wrote:Granted, we don't ever see Godzilla burrow again (if memory serves, I'm getting old) so it's hard to assume he did something he doesn't really do...


Arguably, it's the only plausible method for his entrance in vs. Mechagodzilla, and possibly even how he gets into the appatently-seamless (at least in terms of kaiju-sized holes) cave in Ebirah. So I think a seldom-used burrowing ability for Showa Godzilla is pretty plausible.
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Re: Talkback Thread #4: Mothra vs. Godzilla (1964)

Postby KaijuCanuck » Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:34 pm

Ivo-goji wrote:The typhoon and subsequent draining of the flood waters take up too much screen time to not be what deposited Godzilla there. The film would have skimmed over that part much more quickly if we weren't supposed to make the connection.


Well, not necessarily because the storm is also what washes in the egg. So it still has a central story importance without being responsible for Godzilla.

But I think that’s still the best explanation; like someone above said, Godzilla’s never been much of a burrower, and he would have had to tunnel his way from Mt. Fuji to wherever that industrial area was.

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Maritonic wrote:Granted, we don't ever see Godzilla burrow again (if memory serves, I'm getting old) so it's hard to assume he did something he doesn't really do...


Arguably, it's the only plausible method for his entrance in vs. Mechagodzilla, and possibly even how he gets into the appatently-seamless (at least in terms of kaiju-sized holes) cave in Ebirah. So I think a seldom-used burrowing ability for Showa Godzilla is pretty plausible.


Right, didn’t think of that. But that’s something you can only apply retroactively, I’m not sure it was in the minds of the filmmakers in 1964.

Added in 9 days 5 hours 56 minutes 34 seconds:
So I just watched this movie again for the first time in a while. It was always one of my favourites - Godzilla looks awesome, the score is one of the most epic and his running battle with the military is great. But this time I picked up on other stuff I never appreciated before. The characters are actually really fun and plucky, especially the girl and the egg guy (sorry, I can never remember most characters’ names in foreign films). There’s some cool continuity with KKvG, intentional or not - it used to bother me that some of the bombs and missles and stuff clearly never hit Godzilla, but after three films you’d think they already know it won’t hurt him. They’re just trying to drive him towards the towers, because we saw in the last movie he had some vulnerability to electricity. Maybe that was obvious to you guys, but I jusg never thought it about that hard.

Also, I was never a fan of all the singing, but in fairness when you’re a little kid those songs last forever. Now that I’m adult, they’re really not that intrusive, and do actually add to the deity mystique of Mothra.

Unfortunately, I also for the very first time saw the wheels underneath the Mothra larvae, so that was sad.
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Re: Talkback Thread #4: Mothra vs. Godzilla (1964)

Postby LockBite » Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:00 pm

Probably my favorite “villain Goji” depiction, thanks to Ikufube’s music. That soundtrack combined with him trudging along with that menacing glare... it really conveys how this thing is a harbinger of tragedy.
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Re: Talkback Thread #4: Mothra vs. Godzilla (1964)

Postby edgaguirus » Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:56 pm

The face really sales that menacing look. especially when we see Godzilla about to smash the egg.
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Re: Talkback Thread #4: Mothra vs. Godzilla (1964)

Postby Jeff-Goldblum1 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:43 pm

I've thought about this and perhaps Toho could re release this film with a different ending.

To address the controversy about Godzilla being defeated by two caterpillars.

Just reshoot it with period film stock and set pieces and have Godzilla defeat the Mothra larva and then leave benevolently.

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Re: Talkback Thread #4: Mothra vs. Godzilla (1964)

Postby eabaker » Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:54 pm

Jeff-Goldblum1 wrote:I've thought about this and perhaps Toho could re release this film with a different ending.

To address the controversy about Godzilla being defeated by two caterpillars.

Just reshoot it with period film stock and set pieces and have Godzilla defeat the Mothra larva and then leave benevolently.


So, expend time and resources to create a version with a nonsense ending, in direct opposition to the intent of the work's creators, to address a "controversy" among a tiny fraction of a fandom which is itself a tiny fraction of their overall audience?
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Re: Talkback Thread #4: Mothra vs. Godzilla (1964)

Postby Kaiju-King42 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:02 pm

eabaker wrote:
Jeff-Goldblum1 wrote:I've thought about this and perhaps Toho could re release this film with a different ending.

To address the controversy about Godzilla being defeated by two caterpillars.

Just reshoot it with period film stock and set pieces and have Godzilla defeat the Mothra larva and then leave benevolently.


So, expend time and resources to create a version with a nonsense ending, in direct opposition to the intent of the work's creators, to address a "controversy" among a tiny fraction of a fandom which is itself a tiny fraction of their overall audience?


I didn't even realize Godzilla's defeat in Mothra vs Godzilla was a controversy in itself. Heroic underdogs defeat stronger villains all the time in fiction.

I can't wait for that Deathly Hallows extended edition where Voldemort murders Harry and friends and proceeds to conquer Britain. That's really how it should have ended.
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Re: Talkback Thread #4: Mothra vs. Godzilla (1964)

Postby Dr. Professor » Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:49 pm

Jeff-Goldblum1 wrote:I've thought about this and perhaps Toho could re release this film with a different ending.

To address the controversy about Godzilla being defeated by two caterpillars.

Just reshoot it with period film stock and set pieces and have Godzilla defeat the Mothra larva and then leave benevolently.

He wouldn't have left benevolently. The whole plot is literally "we need to get Mothra to come and beat Godzilla cause he's skreeonkin wrecking our poop." It would've been a shitty ending if Godzilla won, and would've made the entire film pointless.
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Re: Talkback Thread #4: Mothra vs. Godzilla (1964)

Postby SoggyNoodles2016 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:00 pm

Jeff-Goldblum1 wrote:I've thought about this and perhaps Toho could re release this film with a different ending.

To address the controversy about Godzilla being defeated by two caterpillars.

Just reshoot it with period film stock and set pieces and have Godzilla defeat the Mothra larva and then leave benevolently.


This is the literally the exact same thing as that "Han shot first" idiocy in Star Wars . You want to edit the film and mess with it just to make a character look better. No, it's even worse. "Han shot first!" is just a minor quibble that annoys fans. You want to ruin a film's story and message just because some people are mad the hero won because it's a moth. This is the most ridiculous thing I've seen on these forums and that's saying something.
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