Talkback Thread #4: Mothra vs. Godzilla (1964)

[MDK]

And most of what he destroyed earlier in the film (the tower, the castle) he destroyed by accident.

I think this is a case of people trying way to hard to nitpick things about this movie in order to find fault in it and knock it down a peg.

But I can see Nakajima in one frame!

[edgaguirus]

And most of what he destroyed earlier in the film (the tower, the castle) he destroyed by accident.

Godzilla just woke up from a two year nap, lost almost all his baby fat, and then stumbles around Tokyo for a good few minutes. He was having more of an off day then a rampage.

You'd be grouchy too if you got your tail stuck in a tower.

[The Godzilla Camp]

2. Those are what we call 'warning shots'. The way Godzilla ignores the larvae until they engage him makes it clear he ain't interested in fighting them.

Since when does Godzilla go out of his way to NOT fight a monster? And why wouldn't he fight the Larvae? He literally fights and destroys everything everywhere.

Well - in Kiryu 2002 - where Kiryu Mecha-G 2002 was about to blast the AZC Ray at Godzilla 2002 he lets out a groan and then a bellow that 'awakens' the spirit of Godzilla 1954 and later Godzilla 2002 'retreated' somewhat by diving into the ocean - I mean he just stood their tanking in all that fire-power that Kiryu Mecha-G 2002 spammed out at him at first but it appeared it did nothing much to affect him until the AZC where Godzilla 2002 rather than even blasting an Atomic Ray Beam he did just bellow out a roar ... and it 'awakened' the spirit of Godzilla 1954 ...

Also in King Kong vs Godzilla 1962 - briefly - where King Kong 1962 grappled him on the tail and was dragging him about - Godzilla 1962 for a brief moment it appeared as if he were trying to get away rather than face King Kong 1962 ...

Also in Ghidorah the 3 Headed Monster - for a moment Godzilla in that hilarious scene where he tripped - he did seem to run away from Ghidorah 1964 although then again he might have been just 'gauging' his distance ...

As with fighting and destroying everything elsewhere ... well ... surely IF Minya and Goji Junior were around and 'pleaded' with him Godzilla might begrudgingly oblige ... given in 1993 where he's freshly beaten up Mecha-G 1993 and he reaches the building with Baby Goji and when Baby Goji was frightened and his eyes glowed and telepathically he communicated with Godzilla 1993 he did stop rampaging for the moment and headed back home to the ocean-sea ... and in 2004 where Minya pleaded with Godzilla 2004 not to destroy the Gotengo ...

[three]

i can't remember if he fires off warning shots, but given what i do remember here i doubt he would just casually ignore or briefly fend off the Mothra larvae.

[The Godzilla Camp]

i can't remember if he fires off warning shots, but given what i do remember here i doubt he would just casually ignore or briefly fend off the Mothra larvae.

But wasn't where he blasted that beach-side village when he comes ashore somewhat of a 'warning' shot and then he just walked off - given he blasted the beach-side village and then walked off and pretty much figuring out that would discourage the Mosura 1964 twin larvae not to follow him ...

[JAGzilla]

I've always seen Mosugoji as a relatively passive, non-violent incarnation of Godzilla. Apart from a few instances of destruction in the Nagoya attack, and debatably the attack on the egg, he never appeared to want anything to do with the battles he wound up in. It was always the Mothras or military that opened hostilities, and his response was always minimal - just enough to end the fight, and then he would try to walk away. I feel like Honda intended him to be one of those 'tragic' monsters that's simply too big and intimidating for his environment, and ends up surrounded by violence because of it.

[The Godzilla Camp]

I've always seen Mosugoji as a relatively passive, non-violent incarnation of Godzilla. Apart from a few instances of destruction in the Nagoya attack, and debatably the attack on the egg, he never appeared to want anything to do with the battles he wound up in. It was always the Mothras or military that opened hostilities, and his response was always minimal - just enough to end the fight, and then he would try to walk away. I feel like Honda intended him to be one of those 'tragic' monsters that's simply too big and intimidating for his environment, and ends up surrounded by violence because of it.

Interesting - BUT surely Mosu-Goji 1964 - the moment he rose from Kurada Beach he SURELY could have just went straight for the Ocean-Sea eh? I mean the fact he bothered to stomp through Nagoya - unless ofc he had really no choice and Nagoya was in the way hence he SURELY could have chose the 'least' populated area and stomped abit through there and such and THEN headed to the Ocean-Sea to home eh? Given yet he bothered with the Mosura Egg... also - then WHY did he bother with the Nagoya Tower in the first place? I mean if you notice he bothered to knock it down and where he even has to run to 'flee' from the collapsing Nagoya Tower and when it somewhat landed on his ass for a brief shot he's got an annoyed yelping face before he adjusted the Nagoya Tower ... I mean he need not have done that eh? Yet he bothered then in a sense ...

On a side note - would you say Mosu-Goji 1964 arguably is ALSO one of the most durable versions and incarnations of a Godzilla? Well atleast Showa-version? I mean sure the 1970s Showa Godzilla had crazy feats BUT considering the film was made in 1964 and the fact how Mosu-Goji 1964 was subject to 300K later 1 Million Volts of Electricity and considering Electricity was a weakness of his somewhat yet he managed to endure it - though then again due to ignorance and the short-circuiting of the power generators hence he was given a breather - but considering he was blasted then for more than just a few seconds and yet he only needed a brief moment before he just went about frying some JSDF Tanks and also frying one of the Artificial Lightning Generators before he went about stomping about his business and such ...

But now that you mention it too - indeed - compared to the 1964 Sandai-Goji - whom was somewhat abit 'obsessed' with Rodan 1964 - well following him through the evening to the slopes of Mt. Fuji to fight him ... Mosu-Goji 1964 indeed didn't seem to start fights or such in a way ... he just preferred stomping about on his business ...

[edgaguirus]

The tower seemed like an act of anger. He got his tail stuck, and then stumbled forward, and then the tower hits him. Godzilla destroyed the tower, and his anger vented, went his merry way.

This Godzilla didn't have an agressor role in this movie. His role is more as a force of nature, making his way across man's domain and defying all their attempts to stop him. The film has a theme of the consequences of nuclear power. We see Infant Island as a barren and mostly lifeless landscape. In Japan, they fail to stop a living nuclear giant. We can split the atom, but then we can't do much about the side effects. Man can only cope with the best knowledge available to us.

[JAGzilla]

Yeah, it seemed like he only destroyed Nagoya Tower out of annoyance at getting his tail stuck. And as long as we're speculating, it's entirely possible he didn't regard smashing a tower as a terribly bad thing to do, which would be understandable. Most humans wouldn't think twice about breaking a tree branch that snagged on their shirt, or give a thought to any insects that might be hurt or inconvenienced as a result.

And as for Godzilla's decision not to immediately return to the ocean... that could be interpreted in a few different ways, and obviously none can be confirmed, so I guess it's just a matter of picking the option that suits one's views on Mosugoji in general. You see him as a deliberately rampaging villain? Cool, then he stayed on land for the purpose of attacking Japan. You see him as a victim of his own unnatural size and power? Then he stayed... just because he felt like taking a walk, or something, and humanity happened to be in his way. Or there are other options, I'm sure. The American version of the movie further complicates the issue, because there he was heading for the ocean, until the U.S. Navy attacked him. And that scene supports the 'non-aggressive' theory, too: instead of brutally retaliating against the ships, as most other Godzilla incarnations would have done, Mosugoji turns and walks away. So it could be argued that it was actually humanity's fault that he stayed in Japan and kept causing problems.

And the idea that his durability was his reason for 'holding back' against the military and Mothra larvae, that he just didn't feel the need to waste energy fighting things he didn't see as real threats: it's entirely possible, and as legitimate a theory as my own. Kiryugoji acted similarly to that, if memory serves, so there are other instances of that behavior in the series. I just don't see it that way because of the fact that all Godzilla incarnations can shrug off conventional military weapons, but most don't choose to ignore them, and insist on slaughtering the troops that attack them even though there isn't any need. Mosugoji is a rare exception to that: he didn't turn on the military until they'd seriously hurt him, and even then he restricted himself to burning (IIRC) two or three tanks, and only one of the towers, and left the rest alone once they stopped fighting. Walking away from a battle with other kaiju that wanted to fight him is even more unusual; I can't immediately think of another case where it happened, actually. So his attempts to avoid fighting the larvae really stand out. He just... didn't seem interested in fighting.

[The Godzilla Camp]

Yeah, it seemed like he only destroyed Nagoya Tower out of annoyance at getting his tail stuck. And as long as we're speculating, it's entirely possible he didn't regard smashing a tower as a terribly bad thing to do, which would be understandable. Most humans wouldn't think twice about breaking a tree branch that snagged on their shirt, or give a thought to any insects that might be hurt or inconvenienced as a result.

And as for Godzilla's decision not to immediately return to the ocean... that could be interpreted in a few different ways, and obviously none can be confirmed, so I guess it's just a matter of picking the option that suits one's views on Mosugoji in general. You see him as a deliberately rampaging villain? Cool, then he stayed on land for the purpose of attacking Japan. You see him as a victim of his own unnatural size and power? Then he stayed... just because he felt like taking a walk, or something, and humanity happened to be in his way. Or there are other options, I'm sure. The American version of the movie further complicates the issue, because there he was heading for the ocean, until the U.S. Navy attacked him. And that scene supports the 'non-aggressive' theory, too: instead of brutally retaliating against the ships, as most other Godzilla incarnations would have done, Mosugoji turns and walks away. So it could be argued that it was actually humanity's fault that he stayed in Japan and kept causing problems.

And the idea that his durability was his reason for 'holding back' against the military and Mothra larvae, that he just didn't feel the need to waste energy fighting things he didn't see as real threats: it's entirely possible, and as legitimate a theory as my own. Kiryugoji acted similarly to that, if memory serves, so there are other instances of that behavior in the series. I just don't see it that way because of the fact that all Godzilla incarnations can shrug off conventional military weapons, but most don't choose to ignore them, and insist on slaughtering the troops that attack them even though there isn't any need. Mosugoji is a rare exception to that: he didn't turn on the military until they'd seriously hurt him, and even then he restricted himself to burning (IIRC) two or three tanks, and only one of the towers, and left the rest alone once they stopped fighting. Walking away from a battle with other kaiju that wanted to fight him is even more unusual; I can't immediately think of another case where it happened, actually. So his attempts to avoid fighting the larvae really stand out. He just... didn't seem interested in fighting.

The tower seemed like an act of anger. He got his tail stuck, and then stumbled forward, and then the tower hits him. Godzilla destroyed the tower, and his anger vented, went his merry way.

This Godzilla didn't have an agressor role in this movie. His role is more as a force of nature, making his way across man's domain and defying all their attempts to stop him. The film has a theme of the consequences of nuclear power. We see Infant Island as a barren and mostly lifeless landscape. In Japan, they fail to stop a living nuclear giant. We can split the atom, but then we can't do much about the side effects. Man can only cope with the best knowledge available to us.

Ah interesting interesting ... I can see what you mean with the Nagoya TV Tower - it was really that - if you notice - he bothered walking UP to it - AND THEN he turned around and it seemed rather than just 'getting his tail stuck on the Tower frame' he seemed intent on doing something to it in the first place which I find still intriguing given he again surely could have just walked PAST the Nagoya TV Tower without needing to even bother 'tailing' the Tower in the first place ... I mean notice with the Nagoya Castle - part of the reason he wrecked it was where he tripped on the moat by accident and slammed into the Nagoya Castle and then he just toppled it the way a 5-year old kid happily demolishes a Birthday Cake or Lego Block Playset City ...

But do you reckon probably due to events of Mosura 1964 hence later in the 1964 Sandaikaiju Ghidorah film - where Mosu-Goji 1964 becomes Sandai-Goji 1964 - hence he becomes alittle more proactive in the aggressive department? Given he rose from the ocean-sea - sinks the ocean-liner ship, stomps abit through the bay and the city ... and stalks Rodan 1964 during the evening all the way towards Mt. Fuji ...

[Kaiser]

Nagoya Castle and Nagoya TV seemed like he was venting his frustration, but I do believe he intentionally destroyed the hotel towards the end of the film. Either way, I think he fits the "force of nature" criteria in this better than any other movie.

[JAGzilla]

But do you reckon probably due to events of Mosura 1964 hence later in the 1964 Sandaikaiju Ghidorah film - where Mosu-Goji 1964 becomes Sandai-Goji 1964 - hence he becomes alittle more proactive in the aggressive department? Given he rose from the ocean-sea - sinks the ocean-liner ship, stomps abit through the bay and the city ... and stalks Rodan 1964 during the evening all the way towards Mt. Fuji ...

I prefer not to put too much thought into how or why Showa Godzilla's personality changed from film to film, aside from acknowledging the obvious life-changing events like GTTHM's team-up against Ghidorah, or adopting Minya. The filmmakers pretty much just had him do whatever each script called for, and trying to make much sense of it 'in-universe' seems pointless.

But for the sake of discussion... I don't think I'd ever actually thought about why Godzilla behaves differently between the two 1964 movies. Your theory makes sense, though. His passiveness in MvsG not only failed to keep him out of unwanted battles, but it was a major factor in his being defeated by the Mothra twins. So yeah, it'd be understandable if those events led to his heightened aggression in GTTHM.

[The Godzilla Camp]

But do you reckon probably due to events of Mosura 1964 hence later in the 1964 Sandaikaiju Ghidorah film - where Mosu-Goji 1964 becomes Sandai-Goji 1964 - hence he becomes alittle more proactive in the aggressive department? Given he rose from the ocean-sea - sinks the ocean-liner ship, stomps abit through the bay and the city ... and stalks Rodan 1964 during the evening all the way towards Mt. Fuji ...

I prefer not to put too much thought into how or why Showa Godzilla's personality changed from film to film, aside from acknowledging the obvious life-changing events like GTTHM's team-up against Ghidorah, or adopting Minya. The filmmakers pretty much just had him do whatever each script called for, and trying to make much sense of it 'in-universe' seems pointless.

But for the sake of discussion... I don't think I'd ever actually thought about why Godzilla behaves differently between the two 1964 movies. Your theory makes sense, though. His passiveness in MvsG not only failed to keep him out of unwanted battles, but it was a major factor in his being defeated by the Mothra twins. So yeah, it'd be understandable if those events led to his heightened aggression in GTTHM.

Hello again! Hmm - given the fact Sandai-Goji 1964 also did explain to Mosura 1964 he only hated people because they attacked him with guns and missiles in the first place ... maybe that implies he doesn't really have ill-will towards humans somewhat to an extent?

Also on a side note - isn't it interesting how the Mosura 1964 larva - she would have surely been one of the twins fighting Mosu-Goji 1964 - well he's basically Sandai-Goji 1964 as well - but she would have been one of the twins whom defeated him and yet interesting how he doesn't really fight her or doesn't have much grudge or anger against her ... I mean given one of the twins is dead by then and yet the fact she manages to get him and Rodan 1964 to shut up by giving them a 'sticky mouth' for a second and interestingly he doesn't bother hurting or fighting against her - other than curse at her and ignore her pleas at first but as King Ghidorah 1964 as we know was the common enemy ... and yet in 2001 we get GMK ... which GMK King Ghidorah 2001 whilst being still an antagonist to GMK Godzilla 2001 - this time GMK King Ghidorah 2001 is a Guardian Monster of Japan ... and that makes me wonder in 3 years or so around the clock will we get another potential GMK? Or an improved Ghidorah the 3 Headed Monster eh?

Nagoya Castle and Nagoya TV seemed like he was venting his frustration, but I do believe he intentionally destroyed the hotel towards the end of the film. Either way, I think he fits the "force of nature" criteria in this better than any other movie.

Hmm - but wouldn't venting out your anger at the same time also pretty much also be intentional? I mean the fact you would direct your frustration and anger at a target or something ... but then again but the hotel - well with that one - I can agree for sure - given the bad-guys - well the greedy thug - whilst he was dazing from his 'bloody nose' he seemed pretty scared the SKREEORNK outta him ... and the fact how Godzilla 1964 was just casually strolling towards the hotel and then again he did do a service for the human protagonists though; he kills the bad guys somewhat ... well the fact the greedy thug was running out with money and literally dies a 'rich and a poor bastard' rich with money but poor he was the unfortunate sucker whom got 'whacked' at the wrong time ...

[GodzillaFanatic2001]

Sorry for the bump, but I read in the English Version Guide that practicly every copy of the American cut is different. I'm curious what exactly is different in each version. I'm already aware of some of the changes, like the alternate VHS title card, but what else is different?
Thanks!

[Space Hunter M]

Sorry for the bump, but I read in the English Version Guide that practicly every copy of the American cut is different. I'm curious what exactly is different in each version. I'm already aware of some of the changes, like the alternate VHS title card, but what else is different?
Thanks!

The UPA Godzilla vs. Mothra version is missing a bunch of lines from the original AIP version because of sloppy telecine work and outright incompetence on UPA's part. It's also synced pretty poorly in places.

These are the lines/bits that are missing:

Kumayama and Torahata looking around some more for the Shobijin at the end of reel 1.

"- Let them at least finish their story! Go ahead! Go on, please.
- Alright."

"The real owner is Mothra, the Thing." misses out on the "the" in "the Thing".

"- Money. That's all they're interested in.
- I'm surprised."

"Emergency! Emergency! Godzilla is approaching this district!" at the end of reel 2 and the beginning of reel 3 is spliced/edited.

"Our island has been cruelly used." before "Our people, stricken with disease!".

"A, B, C. Within the lines of this triangle..." at the start of reel 4 starts abruptly with "-in the lines of this triangle..."

"- There they are!
- You're right!"

The MonstersHD/Classic Media version uses a print of the AIP version, so all of the above lines are present, but is damaged in many of the same places that the UPA version chops out footage. At the same time, it misses out on a bit of dialogue at the end of reel 4 of the U.S. cut:

"- What now, sir?
- Alright! Commence Plan C!"

Then there's the Frontier Missile scene.

[GodzillaFanatic2001]

EDIT: Never mind!

[Mini-Godzilla]

I recently watched the dubbed version. The clumsy efforts to justify the U.S. title are pretty hilarious. The movie itself still holds up in this form, and the voiceover work deserves the praise it often receives. The additional scene with the military helps to take the sting out of the ill-conceived comedy with Godzilla tripping over everything while strolling through town. (As with the jumping shie from MZ, this sort of silliness feels wrong in a movie that is otherwise pretty straightforward. It wouldn't be an issue if it had occurred in KKvG or GTTHM, both of which are somewhat goofier by nature.)

[Space Hunter M]

Anybody have the original, untouched R2 DVD? I need it specifically for the '80s reissue cut (the BD version is just some shitty upscale job of the MPEG2 stream).

[Joseph Goodman]

How does that unauthorized Australian DVD of the US cut from a few years back compare (in terms of footage) to the more familiar US discs? Does it have the small bits missing on the others?

[Space Hunter M]

How does that unauthorized Australian DVD of the US cut from a few years back compare (in terms of footage) to the more familiar US discs? Does it have the small bits missing on the others?

It's from a 16mm TV reduction, so it has all of the pre-UPA bits (the Frontier missile scene is totally uncut).


Of course, it has its own share of print inherent damage/splices.