Discussion of custom viewing orders/groupings for the G-film eras

[Chrispy_G]

EDIT: Trying to re-work/broaden the topic of this discussion from what it originally was.

We all know the Showa, Heisei and Millennium Eras when it comes to the Godzilla films and how they are grouped. But for your own personal references/interests...do any of you have grouping methods or marathon orders that go against the typical eras, or maybe include/exclude certain films where they don't necessarily belong?

In the realm of the Showa Era
I stick to Godzilla-only films first and foremost. I've fiddled with the inclusion of other films, but ultimately, characters like Mothra and Rodan are introduced well enough within their debut Godzilla films...and their 'solo films' don't really add much value or background to their appearances and roles in the Godzilla films.

But I've thought a lot about an 'edit' of the original 15 Godzilla films...dropping it down to 11, removing/ignoring All Monsters Attack, Godzilla vs Hedorah, Godzilla vs Gigan, and Godzilla vs Megalon.

As a 4 film sequence, they are films plagued heavily by stock footage, extremely silly plot-points or story elements, and some of the most campy moments and concepts of the entire franchise. A film where Godzilla's presence is all in a kid's imagination, a trippy film where Godzilla can use his breath to fly. A film that, without reason or context, 'revives' King Ghidorah and has him escape death...a film that has talking monsters and a ton of stock footage. A film where a human sized robot can inexplicably become Kaiju-sized, which also uses a lot of stock footage and which features a ridiculous sliding-tail-dropkick.

If you go straight from Destroy All Monsters to Godzilla vs MechaGodzilla, you maintain a sense of legitimacy. All of the recycling of old monsters(and monster footage) is skipped over, as are the most cartoony and ridiculous moments of the series.

[eabaker]

I've posted a few times on this board about the way I sub-divide the Showa series, because it seems absurd to me the way that these movies are consistently grouped together in a single category despite changes in production team, market, and budget. This is something I wrote in another thread about three years ago, regarding not just Godzilla movies, but the whole of Toho's kaiju output (I almost never think it makes sense to try to disentangle Godzilla from that slightly borader context):

The Formative Years (1954-1960) - A period where the films were mostly pretty serious in tone, featured a minimum of monster vs. monster material, and had a slightly stronger emphasis on sci-fi and horror elements. This was the genre first starting to figure itself out, and the stories are of variable quality, but the production values are largely excellent.

The Golden Years (1961-mid 1966) - Shinichi Sekizawa's influence really sets in, and the movies quickly move away from sci-fi in favor of a lighter fantasy tone. Monster vs. monster stories become much more prominent. Production values remain high, and the stories are a lot tighter.

The Pacific Island Years (late 1966-1970) - Budgets tighten, so production values slip a little, and a lot of the action is moved to island locations. Narrative focus shifts heavily towards action-packed human storylines - more punches are thrown, more guns are fired. The quality of scripts is less consistent than in the previous phase. Production design becomes very colorful.

The Experimental Years (1971-1975) - Audiences have dwindled, and budgets have gone with them. A number of rather bold experiments fail to revitalize things.

As far as a "centerpiece" of the franchise goes, I suppose that to me it's those "Golden Years" that will always feel like, "Here it is, when Godzilla was the thing that popular culture defines Godzilla as being, and the results were fantastic."

[GalacticPetey]

I like your breakdown eabaker. It's probably cliched to say, but I love that "golden years" era. A good solid string of Godzilla films, Mothra, Frankentein, Gargantuas, Matango. Good stuff.

[Space Hunter M]

Godzilla and its immediate sequel (1954-1955)

Showa Era (1962-1968) - These are the seven wide release, originally double-billed movies.
Matsuri sub-Era (1969-1975) - Limited releases, studio reforms (actor contracts changed), and a technically different production outfit after Hedorah (Toho Eizo)

[Ivo-goji]

I divide the series into duologies:

The Original Duology: G54 and Godzilla Raids Again

The Vs Godzilla Duology: King Kong vs Godzilla and Mothra vs Godzilla

The Ghidorah Duology: Ghidorah the three headed monster and Godzilla vs Monster Zero

The Island Duology: Godzilla vs the Sea Monster and Son of Godzilla

The All Monsters Duology: Destroy All Monsters and All Monsters Attack

The Invaders Trilogy: Godzilla vs Hedorah, Godzilla vs Gigan, and Godzilla vs Megalon

The Mechagodzilla Duology: Godzilla vs Mechagodzilla and Terror of Mechagodzilla

The 80s Duology: Return of Godzilla and Godzilla vs Biollante

The Throwback Duology: Godzilla vs King Ghidorah and Godzilla vs Mothra

The Godzilla Jr Trilogy: Godzilla vs Mechagodzilla II, Godzilla vs Space Godzilla, and Godzilla vs Destoroyah.

The 2000 Duology: Godzilla 2000 and Godzilla vs Megaguirus

The Kiryu Duology: Godzilla x Mechagodzilla and Godzilla Tokyo SOS

GMK and Final Wars really are stand alone films.

[Chrispy_G]

Added in 21 minutes 21 seconds:
OP has been edited to try and change the focus a bit, not just in terms of how you tend to 'group' films, but more-so which films you personally like to omit or group together, regardless of the typical 'era' structures.

[Pkmatrix]

Myself, I prefer to group by "Decade" rather than by "Era". This works out a bit neater, IMO, and makes it easier to pinpoint what parts of the franchise a person likes. Saying "Showa", for instance, groups together three pretty different periods of Godzilla's film history - the black and white '50s films, the iconic '60s films, and the experimental/wacky '70s films. Just glancing through the filmography, Godzilla films within the same decade tend to be relatively similar to each other but are quite different from films in other decades.

So, yeah, my vote is for "Decades" rather than "Eras".

[eabaker]

Added in 21 minutes 21 seconds:
OP has been edited to try and change the focus a bit, not just in terms of how you tend to 'group' films, but more-so which films you personally like to omit or group together, regardless of the typical 'era' structures.

You haven't changed the focus "a bit," you've made it almost an entirely different subject. You probably just should have started a new thread, because most of the replies so far now become nonsense in this context.

As for omitting... I don't omit anything. It's not my place to decide what belongs in history; events have already decided that. And I certainly wouldn't omit movies because they feel out of place relative to the works that surround them; juxtaposition is one of the most powerful tools in the artist's playbook, and I wouldn't want the Godzilla series homogenized.

Regarding some of the specific continuity concerns you raise, such as Gigan "reviving" King Ghidorah, I'm curious why you would keep the movies in production order, rather than simply move DAM to the end?

[Chrispy_G]

Moving DAM to the end creates some other issues. It is something I was in favor of for a bit...

It becomes a kind of trade-off. If you assume Son of Godzilla and the other 70s films are occurring in 'real time' around when they were released, then DAM being in 1999 creates inconsistencies, potentially, in terms of Minya not aging and things like that.

Also....without Destroy All Monsters, there isn't really a context for properly reintroducing Anguirus in the series, he kinda just shows up again with little context for Godzilla and he being 'allies' now. The other films also make references to Monster Island...without Destroy All Monsters, that concept seems to kind of just jut-up out of nowhere.

But if you have DAM occurring in its release order placement, then you get the inconsistencies like Ghidorah coming back to life, Megalon making a reference that confirms its 70s placement which is inconsistent with DAM.

There really seems to be no perfect way to organize and set up these films in a way that makes them fit.

I'm also not advocating that we start completely omitting films from existence or casting them out of acknowledgement or discussion. But for me, when I'm trying to set up a marathon that will, all things considered, make sense and feel consistent....it becomes a little odd to include and feature the very weird 69-73 films. Those films ARE history and DID happen and do represent a very zany chapter in the Godzilla franchise in terms of production and things like that. But trying to make that ridiculousness reconcile with the more 'earnest' films becomes taxing......there is a reason Toho themselves decided to reset the clock back to the original film and just make a direct sequel to that.

[Ivo-goji]

Moving DAM to the end creates some other issues. It is something I was in favor of for a bit...

It becomes a kind of trade-off. If you assume Son of Godzilla and the other 70s films are occurring in 'real time' around when they were released, then DAM being in 1999 creates inconsistencies, potentially, in terms of Minya not aging and things like that.

Minilla aging doesn't really count as an inconsistency; the film states it takes place decades in the future relative to the year it was released, decades in which Minilla doesn't age regardless of what order the films occur in. Besides, that would be making assumptions about how Minilla is supposed to age (maybe it takes a century for a member of Godzilla's species to reach adulthood, we don't know).
There is a similar problem with Godzilla vs Monster Zero being set in the future relative to the year it was released, but the movies that take place after it (Godzilla vs the Sea Monster and Son of Godzilla) not apparently being set in the future themselves. Although the usual solution to this problem which most fans suggested was that Godzilla vs Monster Zero simply took place a year or two after 1965 and the subsequent two films occur right at the end of the decade.

Also....without Destroy All Monsters, there isn't really a context for properly reintroducing Anguirus in the series, he kinda just shows up again with little context for Godzilla and he being 'allies' now. The other films also make references to Monster Island...without Destroy All Monsters, that concept seems to kind of just jut-up out of nowhere.

That's true no matter what order you watch the movies in though.

"Monster Island", technically, was introduced in Son of Godzilla, as the Japanese title of that film alludes.

[Chrispy_G]

Fair points. Not to get too off-point though, regardless of where DAM takes place and where it is placed in any kind of marathon, the 69-73 group of films is a pretty odd batch...a very odd batch...and I can enjoy my cheesy, wild Godzilla just as much as the next guy...but those 4 films just feel like a really bizarre chapter crammed into a 15 film sequence of "legit" films. Having the marathon of all of the Showa Godzilla films recently, it felt like all of the other films generally kept a certain vibe to them. Giant monster movies, yes, unrealistic, yes...but with these 4 there was a sort of embrace of 'cheap'(stock footage) and 'cartoony'(super moves, prominent child characters, personifying Godzilla in a superheroic role)

[eabaker]

I don't find the other Showa films nearly as consistent in tone and style as you do. The ominous, somber, at times horrifying aspects of Gojira, Godzilla Raids Again and Rodan are a pretty jarring contrast to the fantastic fable of Mothra (skipping over Varan because it doesn't really have much of a tone or style), and even Mothra in turn feels grounded and naturalistic by comparison to the broad satire of King Kong vs. Godzilla.

Gorath and Atragon are both more straight-faced and even tragic movies, perhaps tonally most closely akin to Rodan, while Mothra vs. Godzilla strikes a pretty good balance among the various tones, but its satire takes such a brutal turn that it can't really be compared to King Kong vs. Godzilla, which remains very much the odd man out.

Dogora is slyly playful, particularly in its presentation of the self-important gangster characters; it embraces the pulp, but also kind of undercuts it. This is a pretty natural progression from Mothra vs. Godzilla, and will be seen in most of the Showa kaiju movies to follow, but it takes us a long was from the genre's earliest entries.

And then comes Ghidorah, the Three-Headed Monster. Picking up narratively from Mothra vs. Godzilla, tonally it is closer to Dogora. The introduction of an ancient alien collective unconscious is a little out-of-left-field in the context of the earlier movies, but not totally inconsistent with the more fantastic tone that had been creeping in; but then, in its third act, the movie takes a truly crazed turn when it offers us a translation of the monsters' roars. Even the broad satire of King Kong vs. Godzilla - even Tako's most glorious comic mugging, or the bizarre caricatures of gangsters in Dogora - couldn't really prepare a person for pouty, bratty, whining kaiju or for, "Godzilla, what terrible language!"

Monster Zero, in turn, is very much its own beast. I mentioned the embrace of pulp in Dogora, but here Sekizawa has turned that up to 11, providing a mixture of the weird, the rough-and-tumble, and the purely fantastic which has its roots in various earlier movie, but achieves a totally different result than any of its predecessors.

Alright, I've been able to write this much because it's a very slow day at work, but I do have things I should be doing, and my intent wasn't to run through the entire series movie-by-movie. I've described ways in which I find roughly the first decade of Toho's kaiju output to be tonally all over the map, and I haven't even gotten to the arrival of Jun Fukuda yet.

Suffice it to say, I don't think that, in this mélange of weird and wonderful monster movies, something like the collage aesthetic of Godzilla vs. Hedorah or the embrace of camp and comic book aesthetics in Godzilla vs. Gigan feels at all out of place - or, perhaps, the fact that they feel out of place is exactly what makes them feel right at home in the series.

[Chrispy_G]

I guess it is just about what doesn't' 'ring true' for every person. I can accept a reality where there are aliens and giant monsters of all shapes and sizes...but Godzilla using his atomic breath to fly, performing the sliding-tail-dropkick...a human-sized robot that with seemingly no explanation can turn giant sized....I just can't suspend my disbelief that far. You can't explain that away in a sort of 'futuristic world with super science' kind of hand-wave, for me it just feels like straight up bologna. A bridge too far.

And I understand the framework by which they were 'forced' to use stock footage. When it is used rather sparingly, or for a few insert destruction shots...I can live with that. But when All Monsters Attack is a 69 minute literal child's fantasy where 90% of the monster material is completely lifted from other films, I call BS. When entire fight/battle/attack sequences in Gigan and Megalon are lifted from other films in such a blatant way, I call BS.

Maybe it's just me, but the combination of "super moves", "lots of stock footage" and "Children's fantasy" that plague the Godzilla films from 69-73 'mini-era' is just too much for me. Again, I can enjoy them, I own those films, I'll watch them...but when I'm in 'marathon mode', I know I'll often skip past them.

[eabaker]

I'd actually say that All Monsters Attack is one of the easiest when it comes to suspension of disbelief, and the use of stock footage plays into that. "Kid dreams/fantasizes about living among the monsters he's seen in movies" is possibly the most down-to-earth a scenario the genre has ever presented.

And, as I've said elsewhere on the board, I really don't think the events of Godzilla vs. Hedorah are meant to be read as literally real, even within the diegesis. Although the idea that the whole thing is a child's fantasy isn't as textually provable as in the case of All Monsters Attack, I do believe a strong argument can be made that what we're seeing is often Ken's interpretation of what he's witnessing, as opposed to objective reality.

[Ivo-goji]

All Monsters Attack takes place in a science fiction world where a kid's neighbor invents an astral projection device and giant monsters are real, it's anything but down to earth.

[eabaker]

All Monsters Attack takes place in a science fiction world where a kid's neighbor invents an astral projection device and giant monsters are real, it's anything but down to earth.

That's... not the standard interpretation of that movie's plot.

[Pkmatrix]

All Monsters Attack takes place in a science fiction world where a kid's neighbor invents an astral projection device and giant monsters are real, it's anything but down to earth.

Well that's a new one.

[BlacktimusPrime]

I would just leave All Monsters Attack out, as I honestly don't think of it as a godzilla movie (plus it's awful, so that helps).

[GalacticPetey]

It's a film by Toho studios that features Godzilla. It's a Godzilla movie. Rebirth of Mothra II is awful, doesn't mean I don't consider it a Mothra movie.

[Ivo-goji]

All Monsters Attack takes place in a science fiction world where a kid's neighbor invents an astral projection device and giant monsters are real, it's anything but down to earth.

Well that's a new one.

Well, it's what happens in the movie. The Godzilla Saga saw it too:

In order to pass the long hours of the day after returning home from school, a time when both of his parents were working, he befriended a neighbor in his building who was a friendly but highly eccentric inventor. The man built a radio-sized device that he said could send a person's consciousness "anywhere" it wanted to go. Generously loaning the use of the device to Ichiro, the boy activated the machine, and he promptly fell into a trance-like state, where his astral body was evidently freed from his physical body.

The stuff that happens to Ichiro is simply beyond the scope of mere daydreams. Given that Ichiro's mind demonstrably leaves his body, and we see that he is physically unconscious when for instance being held by the two kidnappers, the logical conclusion is that Shinpei's machine works. This accords with the technology seen in the rest of the Showa series; recall that two films ago we had a weather control experiment create super mantids, and three films later we get a size shifting robot.