Anybody have a change of thoughts regarding the 70's films?

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Re: Anybody have a change of thoughts regarding the 70's fil

Postby Dust_pan » Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:30 am

MustafaDaisenso wrote:
Dust_pan wrote:Why is it a bad thing that Godzilla only appears for a short amount of time?

ToMG is not supposed to be about Godzilla. And it doesn't need to be about Godzilla in order to be good.

Well, if I'm not mistaken ToMG is part of a little something called the Godzilla Series, not to mention that Godzilla's appearance is completely arbitrary and shoehorned in, much like in Megalon and Sea Monster. Godzilla is completely ignored for most of the movie (not counting the opening credits) and when he appears on the aliens' radar, its like "oh yeah, Godzilla is in this movie too".


That is true. Godzilla was ignored for most of the film, and he was basically just shoehorned in. But you still didn't explain to me why it's BAD for Godzilla to only have a minor role/appearance in a movie.

Just because Godzilla is shoehorned into a movie or makes a small appearance in a movie does not automatically mean that the movie itself is bad. Invasion of Astro Monster/Godzilla vs Monster Zero featured Godzilla for only a few minutes, but the movie itself is still considered great by many fans. Destroy All Monsters was more like a Japanese monster mash rather than a true Godzilla-centric film, and yet fans praise, love, and overrate it to death as one of the greatest Godzilla films ever.
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Re: Anybody have a change of thoughts regarding the 70's fil

Postby eabaker » Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:52 am

The Illiad is ostensibly the story of Achilles, but he spends most of it sitting on the sidelines because he's pissed off at Agamemnon. It just makes it that much bigger a deal when he finally gets involved in the action.

Heck, Waiting for Godot manages to get by without ever having Godot show up, and, y'know, that's a pretty good play...
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Re: Anybody have a change of thoughts regarding the 70's fil

Postby MustafaDaisenso » Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:36 pm

Dust_pan wrote:Just because Godzilla is shoehorned into a movie or makes a small appearance in a movie does not automatically mean that the movie itself is bad. Invasion of Astro Monster/Godzilla vs Monster Zero featured Godzilla for only a few minutes, but the movie itself is still considered great by many fans. Destroy All Monsters was more like a Japanese monster mash rather than a true Godzilla-centric film, and yet fans praise, love, and overrate it to death as one of the greatest Godzilla films ever.

You're missing my point. The matter is not that Godzilla doesn't have enough screentime; its that Godzilla has no presence in the movie and is arbitrarily shoehorned in to beat up the baddies.

In the movies you mentioned, Godzilla is an active part of the story, appears several times throughout the movie (regardless of for how long) and is instrumental to the progression of the story for the whole of the movie, not just at the very end in an afterthought.
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Re: Anybody have a change of thoughts regarding the 70's fil

Postby Stevo_1985 » Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:50 pm

I dunno. Even if he was shoehorned in, its still a fun story with plenty of MG and T. I personally can enjoy a film without G in my face 3/4 of it. Theres lots to enjoy about it.
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Re: Anybody have a change of thoughts regarding the 70's fil

Postby Legionmaster » Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:54 pm

MustafaDaisenso wrote:In the movies you mentioned, Godzilla is an active part of the story, appears several times throughout the movie (regardless of for how long) and is instrumental to the progression of the story for the whole of the movie, not just at the very end in an afterthought.

I'd say stopping the alien conquest of Earth is a pretty integral story role.
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Re: Anybody have a change of thoughts regarding the 70's fil

Postby Dust_pan » Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:31 pm

MustafaDaisenso wrote:You're missing my point. The matter is not that Godzilla doesn't have enough screentime; its that Godzilla has no presence in the movie and is arbitrarily shoehorned in to beat up the baddies.

In the movies you mentioned, Godzilla is an active part of the story, appears several times throughout the movie (regardless of for how long) and is instrumental to the progression of the story for the whole of the movie, not just at the very end in an afterthought.


I feel as though I should be offended by all of those underlines. It's like you assume that I'll skip over those points or that I somehow can't understand them unless they're made even more obvious than they already are. But fine. I'll take it.

I did not miss your point. I said in my previous post that what you said was true. Godzilla was ignored for most of the film and he was more or less shoehorned in. But what I was talking about was the mere length of his screen time. Previous posters who complained about Godzilla's meager appearance in the movie were basically implying that a small role/appearance for Godzilla is itself a bad thing. Which it isn't.

I also don't have any problems with Godzilla being shoehorned into a film, as long as he does what he was meant to do right (Which he did in ToMG). But that's just my personal opinion.
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Re: Anybody have a change of thoughts regarding the 70's fil

Postby Gojira1963 » Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:34 pm

I never cared for the 70s Godzilla movies but my opinion of them has changed. I do like them more than I used to. I still don't like them as much as the earlier 60s showa movies. Terror of Mechagodzilla and Godzilla vs Megalon are my favorites of the bunch.
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Re: Anybody have a change of thoughts regarding the 70's fil

Postby Pkmatrix » Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:21 am

MustafaDaisenso wrote:I definitely agree with Godzillian about terror of mechagodzilla being a weak entry, due to Honda's overbearing dourness that saps the enjoyment out of the movie, the over-emphasis on the human drama, the absolute lack of presence that Godzilla has, the HORRENDOUS pacing that tries as hard as it can not to show any monster action (see Godzilla's "fight" with Titano during his first appearance), the distinctly mediocre effects, and the general turgidity of the film just make this one of the least enjoyable Showa films.

One big issue is how abortive many of the monster scenes are. Godzilla's fight with titanosaurus is cut short by the focus on Katsura; the destruction of Tokyo lasts all of 2 minutes; Godzilla's climactic face off with a headless Mechagodzilla is rendered symbolically and dramatically pointless by Katsura's suicide.

I know the effects criticism is kinda unfair, but after Gigan the quality really went downhill. Gigan a least had some impressive destruction sequences, good cinematography and well-staged monster action, but after 1972 a lot of the SFX has bad choreography, obvious wires, and isn't slowed down.


I agree with you and Godzillian: the movie is dull, dour, terribly paced, and overall mediocre. I've never understood why so many fans rave about ToMG as if it were one of the greats, or how so many fans could rank it so highly. I don't hate it by any means, but it's one of the movies I enjoy least.

LiquidG wrote:This. TOMG has some of the best special effects of the entire Showa series, you will never find any Godzilla movie that doesn't have some awkward mommemts, TOMG is no different, but the rest of the film fully makes up for a few questionable shots.


WHAT?! :shock:

Do you have any particular effect in mind when saying that? Because from where I'm sitting, I find it MUCH easier to agree with MustafaDaisenso and Godzillian: the effects are, at best, overall mediocre and unimpressive by Showa standards. I can't think of a single thing I'd rank THAT highly. Maybe the Titanosaurus and Mechagodzilla suits, but they're not enough for me to say "Best FX in Showa!"

I'm going to direct the same question to you too, eabaker, because your comment about the movie being filled with "fantastic" effects made me raise an eyebrow. I've always ranked ToMG very lowly FX-wise when thinking of the Showa films...I knew the movie was beloved, but I'd thought that was despite the FX work.

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Re: Anybody have a change of thoughts regarding the 70's fil

Postby Pkmatrix » Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:31 am

Godzilla 1995 wrote:
Pkmatrix wrote:...I knew the movie was beloved, but I'd thought that was despite the FX work.


Well, thought wrong, didn't ya? :P


So it seems! ^_^()

Godzilla 1995 wrote:I really enjoy this film, it does a lot of stuff right. Though Godzilla is not the main focus, I remember the fight scenes with fondness and particularly Godzilla's appearance. Truly epic, and masterful work from Ifukube nails it.


There are definitely good elements to this movie: the fight scenes are fun, I enjoy the massive explosions during the Tokyo attack, the soundtrack is nice, and Godzilla does have a cool intro. For me, though, it isn't enough to drag the movie any higher than "mediocre" and nothing here I'd rank highly on a list of Showa FX shots/sequences. Most of the movie is just so...dull!

Godzilla 1995 wrote:Also, I see a LOT of complaining about Godzilla not being in here very much. Here's some other examples of films that did that:

Gojira
Godzilla vs Monster Zero
Godzilla vs MechaGodzilla


Wanna know the recurring theme about these films? They focus more on the characters than the monsters, AND IT WORKS. The characters are the main focus of the film and it succeeds. ToMG does the same. The characters are given a substantial amount to go on and are well-developed. I end up enjoying the films more because of them. Also, I have mentioned before that I sometimes have trouble remembering characters' names when it comes to these films. I remember the five big roles of this film. That should account for something.


I agree with the sentiment, I just disagree that it works here. While I can remember the characters names well enough, I just don't find any of them worth caring about! The story is so dull and uninteresting to me, despite its (many) good ideas. I don't have a problem with having very little Godzilla or little monster action (Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla is one of my all-time favorites, I can rewatch that one over and over and over...) Part of me thinks that I would've liked it MUCH better had it been directed by Fukuda instead of Honda.

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Re: Anybody have a change of thoughts regarding the 70's fil

Postby eabaker » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:08 am

Pkmatrix wrote:Do you have any particular effect in mind when saying that? Because from where I'm sitting, I find it MUCH easier to agree with MustafaDaisenso and Godzillian: the effects are, at best, overall mediocre and unimpressive by Showa standards. I can't think of a single thing I'd rank THAT highly. Maybe the Titanosaurus and Mechagodzilla suits, but they're not enough for me to say "Best FX in Showa!"

I'm going to direct the same question to you too, eabaker, because your comment about the movie being filled with "fantastic" effects made me raise an eyebrow. I've always ranked ToMG very lowly FX-wise when thinking of the Showa films...I knew the movie was beloved, but I'd thought that was despite the FX work.


Well, the Titanosaurus and Mechagodzilla suits are certainly a big factor in my assessment. I think those two are among the best kaiju suits ever built, and they're easily my favorites of the 70s. A few effects moments early on that really impress me include the low-angle of Titanosaurus against a natural sky and the shots of workers reconstructing MG.

Then, it's really the destruction of Tokyo material that I remember. This sequence includes some truly beautiful and dynamic compositions - and, bear in mind, shot composition is something that I prioritize well above how convincing an effect is technically.

I admit I was exaggerating when I said the movie was "filled with fantastic effects." Really, it includes some fantastic effects. And it was rather careless of me to give the impression that I thought that poorly matted Titanosaurus behind the mountains was the only poor effect in the movie - the composite of Titanosaurus's foot hovering over the two children and the use of the Godzilla stunt suit at the end both leap to mind.

So, to make a much more reasonable statement than my first one: I see it as a movie with overall good effects, a few truly great moments, and a few notable weak moments, but the overall impression - for me - is one of beauty more than of flaws.
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Re: Anybody have a change of thoughts regarding the 70's fil

Postby Pkmatrix » Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:23 am

Godzilla 1995 wrote:Then maybe this is the solution... The movie is just not your cup of tea. Perhaps that it's just not your thing, even though others like it. Heck, a lot of people really like Monster Zero, but I've found I have less love for it than GTTHM. Just not your film, maybe.


Well, that's how I've been looking at it thus far. I may need to give it another rewatch, though, and see if I still feel the same way about it.

eabaker wrote:
Pkmatrix wrote:Do you have any particular effect in mind when saying that? Because from where I'm sitting, I find it MUCH easier to agree with MustafaDaisenso and Godzillian: the effects are, at best, overall mediocre and unimpressive by Showa standards. I can't think of a single thing I'd rank THAT highly. Maybe the Titanosaurus and Mechagodzilla suits, but they're not enough for me to say "Best FX in Showa!"

I'm going to direct the same question to you too, eabaker, because your comment about the movie being filled with "fantastic" effects made me raise an eyebrow. I've always ranked ToMG very lowly FX-wise when thinking of the Showa films...I knew the movie was beloved, but I'd thought that was despite the FX work.


Well, the Titanosaurus and Mechagodzilla suits are certainly a big factor in my assessment. I think those two are among the best kaiju suits ever built, and they're easily my favorites of the 70s. A few effects moments early on that really impress me include the low-angle of Titanosaurus against a natural sky and the shots of workers reconstructing MG.

Then, it's really the destruction of Tokyo material that I remember. This sequence includes some truly beautiful and dynamic compositions - and, bear in mind, shot composition is something that I prioritize well above how convincing an effect is technically.

I admit I was exaggerating when I said the movie was "filled with fantastic effects." Really, it includes some fantastic effects. And it was rather careless of me to give the impression that I thought that poorly matted Titanosaurus behind the mountains was the only poor effect in the movie - the composite of Titanosaurus's foot hovering over the two children and the use of the Godzilla stunt suit at the end both leap to mind.

So, to make a much more reasonable statement than my first one: I see it as a movie with overall good effects, a few truly great moments, and a few notable weak moments, but the overall impression - for me - is one of beauty more than of flaws.


Ah! Those are all very good points. :)

I should rewatch Terror of Mechagodzilla and keep these in mind, maybe I'll like it a bit better this time.

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Re: Anybody have a change of thoughts regarding the 70's fil

Postby Legionmaster » Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:35 am

Legion1979 wrote:Mechagodzilla blowing up an entire city block is one of the coolest effects shots in any '70s films. That's my two cents.

The accidental ignition of the Godzilla suit also ends up being an awesome (albeit dangerously accidental) effect.
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Re: Anybody have a change of thoughts regarding the 70's fil

Postby Killswitch » Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:59 am

I've never been a big fan of Terror of Mechagodzilla, but I like the score and yes, there are some great explosions!

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Re: Anybody have a change of thoughts regarding the 70's fil

Postby Gojira1963 » Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:12 pm

TOMG is one of my favorites from the 70s. I like the stock footage prologue about the history of Godzilla. I like the monster battles and the effects are pretty good. The human story is just so-so but I do like it.
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Re: Anybody have a change of thoughts regarding the 70's fil

Postby Haulport » Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:45 pm

I have ALWAYS loved this movies!! When I was young they were my favorites (probably because they were the ones they showed the most) and when I got older I just appreciated them for the fun and wackiness.

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Re: Anybody have a change of thoughts regarding the 70's fil

Postby Irys X » Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:06 pm

Godzilla vs Mechagodzilla was the second G movie I saw, so obviously some nostalgia there. I've always loved Godzilla vs Gigan for some reason; Godzilla vs Hedorah is the closest I've been to being on drugs, in a good way; Godzilla vs Megalon is all kinds of cheesy fun; and Terror of Mechagodzilla is just a great Godzilla movie up there with some of the mid-sixties films.
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Re: Anybody have a change of thoughts regarding the 70's fil

Postby Gojira1963 » Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:56 pm

Godzilla 1995 wrote:TOMG had some great moments of destruction, and the Godzilla suit catching fire was a fantastic moment. Yes, it was extremely dangerous for the suit actor, but we got some intense footage.


I know the suit caught fire in Godzilla vs the Thing but it did in TOMG? I will have to watch it again!
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Re: Anybody have a change of thoughts regarding the 70's fil

Postby LiquidG » Fri Aug 30, 2013 4:08 pm

Gojira1963 wrote:
Godzilla 1995 wrote:TOMG had some great moments of destruction, and the Godzilla suit catching fire was a fantastic moment. Yes, it was extremely dangerous for the suit actor, but we got some intense footage.


I know the suit caught fire in Godzilla vs the Thing but it did in TOMG? I will have to watch it again!

It was even more extreme in TOMG than in Mothra Vs Godzilla, his whole back was on fire
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Re: Anybody have a change of thoughts regarding the 70's fil

Postby Gojira1963 » Fri Aug 30, 2013 4:14 pm

LiquidG wrote:
Gojira1963 wrote:
Godzilla 1995 wrote:TOMG had some great moments of destruction, and the Godzilla suit catching fire was a fantastic moment. Yes, it was extremely dangerous for the suit actor, but we got some intense footage.


I know the suit caught fire in Godzilla vs the Thing but it did in TOMG? I will have to watch it again!

It was even more extreme in TOMG than in Mothra Vs Godzilla, his whole back was on fire


I know what movie i will watch tonight!

Edit:

I watched the movie last night, and I forgot how epic that scene was when his back caught fire. Even better than when his head caught fire in Godzilla vs the Thing.
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Re: Anybody have a change of thoughts regarding the 70's fil

Postby H-Man » Sat Aug 31, 2013 10:33 am

I've never not liked the 70s films, although I have grown more accepting of the fact that Godzilla only has 16 minutes or so of screen time in Godzilla vs. Megalon over the years (although I still prefer the G vs. Gigan end song to the popular Jet Jaguar song). I like the other 70s films just fine.


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