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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. Hedorah (1971)

Posted: Sat May 25, 2019 4:25 pm
by LSD Jellyfish
Save the Earth is one of the all time catchiest songs 8-)
And it’s not ham fisted, because it fits in with all the protest and environemenral music from that era.

Image
It’s difficult finding many images, but each of them is pretty bad. I don’t see how you can have an unsubtle version of Godzilla vs Hedorah, when what was actually going on.

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Gonna put this in spoiler tags because there’s a slight side nipple, but I think this poster from roughly the same time illustrates my point well.

Spoiler:
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And clearly there’s also a heavy influence from Yellow Submarine.
Godzilla vs Hedorah is a product of its era, and a damn good one at that. It’s easy in 2019 to look back on it

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. Hedorah (1971)

Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 3:36 am
by Zarm
I don't think fitting in with the style of the time and being ham-fisted are mutually exclusive. :)

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. Hedorah (1971)

Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 2:28 pm
by eabaker
UltramanGoji wrote:
LSD Jellyfish wrote:This is where you lost me. What do you mean the fish head sequence is a non sequitir? It’s very obvious and important symbolism that humans will soon become the fish, that have been destroyed by pollution in the ocean if this trend of pollution keeps going. The scenes prior to this were all about the ocean and fish quickly dying off. It also serves a period piece, showing the music scene during the time period, and ties into a cautionary/tragic tale about youth who clearly care about the environment but are powerless due to rampant drug use and apathetic adults. While not a focus in the film, the almost suicidal and nihilistic behavior portrayed by the uncle heavily parallels a lot of the sentiments of Americans at the time protesting the Vietnam war.


Like others have said: this wasn't very obvious. Intentional? Maybe. But it didn't work for me. I didn't think the film effectively conveyed this viewpoint well enough with what it offered.


I think, whether or not the movie conveys in intellectual terms exactly what the meaning of the fish head scene in, it works tonally and thematically well enough to have its intended emotional impact on viewers who are engaged with the film's rhythms and techniques.

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. Hedorah (1971)

Posted: Mon May 27, 2019 8:16 am
by MechaGoji Bro7503
LSD Jellyfish wrote:Save the Earth is one of the all time catchiest songs 8-)
And it’s not ham fisted, because it fits in with all the protest and environemenral music from that era.

I said it could be seen as ham fisted by others(like at first glance), but I don't think it is. Thanks for sharing all those posters by the way, and yeah looks like everything matches with what is seen in the film. What do you think about the ghost people? Are they supposed to represent the older generations looking down on the youth movement?

I rewatched it, and I enjoyed it. I thought it was weird that no one reacts to the uncle being killed by Hedorah, and I noticed that Godzilla unintentionally causes the death of people in two different scenes while combating Hedorah. Those guys in that warehouse got sludged on when Godzilla was throwing Hedorah around, and in the final battle Godzilla jumps on Hedorah which knocks them both onto a JSDF truck. Interesting since this is the one where "Godzilla becomes a full on superhero", but he's a giant monster so ya know; people being harmed in the fights did bring it down to Earth though.

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. Hedorah (1971)

Posted: Mon May 27, 2019 3:39 pm
by LSD Jellyfish
MechaGoji Bro7503 wrote:
LSD Jellyfish wrote:Save the Earth is one of the all time catchiest songs 8-)
And it’s not ham fisted, because it fits in with all the protest and environemenral music from that era.

I said it could be seen as ham fisted by others(like at first glance), but I don't think it is. Thanks for sharing all those posters by the way, and yeah looks like everything matches with what is seen in the film. What do you think about the ghost people? Are they supposed to represent the older generations looking down on the youth movement?

I rewatched it, and I enjoyed it. I thought it was weird that no one reacts to the uncle being killed by Hedorah, and I noticed that Godzilla unintentionally causes the death of people in two different scenes while combating Hedorah. Those guys in that warehouse got sludged on when Godzilla was throwing Hedorah around, and in the final battle Godzilla jumps on Hedorah which knocks them both onto a JSDF truck. Interesting since this is the one where "Godzilla becomes a full on superhero", but he's a giant monster so ya know; people being harmed in the fights did bring it down to Earth though.

Yeah the uncle being killed by Hedorah always did bother me.

One of the big issues with the Showa series is how a lot of people retcon completely Godzilla as a superhero. While its clear that he`s no longer akin to the early showa era, there are moments where people, mainly adults, clearly are scared of him.

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. Hedorah (1971)

Posted: Thu May 30, 2019 12:06 pm
by edgaguirus
And then you have instances in film where children show no fear or idolize Godzilla. The boy in G vs H and AMA for example.

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. Hedorah (1971)

Posted: Thu May 30, 2019 1:04 pm
by Freebleeper
I really think the whole "Godzilla becomes a superhero" scenario is sometimes blown out of proportion because at first he helps fight Ghidorah out of a suggestion from Mothra, destroy Japan as he is controlled by aliens, just wanted to pick a fight with Ebirah, was a jerk to Minya through most of Son of Godzilla, again controlled by aliens, it's a dream so Godzilla's Revenge don't count (no sarcastic responses please), wanted to kill Hedorah becauses probably he was cutting into his territory, the funny sounds aggravated me, Jet Jaguar controlled him to what to do, again MechaGodzilla was cutting into his territory and the same goes with the sequel with Titansaurus added to the mess that angered Godzilla. Or I could be wrong since I know the film industry was struggling at this point and television was dominating and so Toho notices how well the Gamera films were doing at the box office and so out of desperation to score big at the box office, they put Gamera's traits into Godzilla, but that's just an observation point of view so you can debate about it if you want.

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. Hedorah (1971)

Posted: Fri May 31, 2019 8:03 am
by Zarm
That is a fair point- although, both vs. Gigan and Zone Fighter do refer to Godzilla as 'a monster of justice'; in the latter, they specifically ask Godzilla for help and he comes to aid them, and later has friendly sparring sessions with Zone... in each case, coming when requested to render help at no benefit to himself. (And not nearly any time a kaiju shows up, either, so it doesn't seem territorial). So I do think that by the 70s, they were strongly trying to suggest that he had the intelligence and personality, rather than animal instincts, to be a hero; in some ways, I think Son of Godzilla is somewhat of a 'hero's journey' of fatherhood, too- a reluctant parent eventually coming to embrace his role, and seemingly the start of giving him more intelligent and benevolent motivations. Even if there was a self-interest angle to a number of the previous stories, that one feels like the turning point where they started portraying Godzilla of more doing things through an intelligent agency rooted in heroic sentience, which then continued through onward... although, yes, it's entirely possible to read that as people projecting onto him in everything but vs. Gigan, Megalon (where individual actions protecting JJ seem to point to more of an intentional heroic bent), and Zone Fighter, potentially.

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. Hedorah (1971)

Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:38 pm
by Stump Feet
Toho’s need for retconning never ceases.

Showa Hedorah is now female I guess?

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. Hedorah (1971)

Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:07 pm
by UltramanGoji
Social media interns in 2019 have no input on a film released nearly fifty years ago.

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. Hedorah (1971)

Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:18 pm
by Stump Feet
UltramanGoji wrote:Social media interns in 2019 have no input on a film released nearly fifty years ago.

I mean, I think that goes without saying :lol:

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. Hedorah (1971)

Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:17 pm
by Gigantis
Stump Feet wrote:Toho’s need for retconning never ceases.

Showa Hedorah is now female I guess?


WAT :shock:

seriously why does Toho make all these pointless changes? this is as bad as there being two Ghidorah's!

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. Hedorah (1971)

Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:25 pm
by Stump Feet
It's nothing to worry about, Toho-tied products have been doing this for the last few years.

Like UltramanGoji said, all this new information made up on the spot doesn't affect 50 year old movies.

The way I see things, unless it's explicitly stated in the films, it's not valid whatsoever.

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. Hedorah (1971)

Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 8:24 pm
by JAGzilla
Anyway... it's a pile of sludge. If it could even have a gender, would it matter?

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. Hedorah (1971)

Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:44 pm
by daveblackeye15
When I was younger and for a really long time I was so sure those were eggs Godzilla had pulled out of Hedorah. I figured they'd grow and it'd be easier for them to reach Hedorah's fourth form: the one that towered over Godzilla. Then someone on tvtropes years ago was like 'he was pulling out Hedorah's eyes.'

Well y'know if they were eggs then that was Toho having to one up Daiei. After all a year ago in Gamera vs. Jiger we saw two kids basically abort a monster so Toho had to do it too.

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. Hedorah (1971)

Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:34 pm
by LSD Jellyfish
UltramanGoji wrote:Social media interns in 2019 have no input on a film released nearly fifty years ago.

This hardcore.

I made a post about it a while ago, but for the most part most retcons and weird poop like this is completely pointless. The only passable cases, are with Ebirah, whose given origin (mutated by the radiation on Letchi) has no effect on the story whatsoever, and ties into what is already implied. The only thing that this may be done to do, is make up an excuse of why the Final Wars Hedorah, is completely weak in comparison to the Showa version, and isn't a big deal. It's similar to the two ghidorahs debate.

Hedorah is a conglomerate of organisms, and thus should not really have a gender.

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. Hedorah (1971)

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:17 pm
by Crazy Jim Films
MechaGoji Bro7503 wrote:
LSD Jellyfish wrote:I rewatched it, and I enjoyed it. I thought it was weird that no one reacts to the uncle being killed by Hedorah, and I noticed that Godzilla unintentionally causes the death of people in two different scenes while combating Hedorah. Those guys in that warehouse got sludged on when Godzilla was throwing Hedorah around, and in the final battle Godzilla jumps on Hedorah which knocks them both onto a JSDF truck. Interesting since this is the one where "Godzilla becomes a full on superhero", but he's a giant monster so ya know; people being harmed in the fights did bring it down to Earth though.


Yeah, the uncle kind of just dying unceremoniously definitely adds to this very cold aspect of the film, which actually makes it quite memorable.

Regarding Godzilla as a "superhero", I think the Showa series has always had something of a loose continuity through out. There are some where they push his hero role a little further. In this one, he feels more like a reluctant defender.

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. Hedorah (1971)

Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 12:08 pm
by edgaguirus
Also, the 70s was an era when super heroes were popular with Japan. Even Toho jumped on the trend with their series Zone Fighter. Showing Godzilla as a hero was good marketing at a time when the movie industry there wasn't as profitable.

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. Hedorah (1971)

Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:43 pm
by LSD Jellyfish
Fun fact, I’m currently in Sugura Bay, the place Hedorah first attack’s and is discovered in. I ate probably the freshest sea food I’ve ever eaten. Anyways, being here gives me a lot more context for the film, and as I live near Mt. Fuji it’s really easy to map out where the film takes place and the progression of hedorah and Godzilla inland.

Anyways, the place is famous for fish and seafood, and it’s historucally a very important port in japan.

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. Hedorah (1971)

Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:42 pm
by Terasawa
Riichiro Manabe’s score for this film is probably the most underappreciated in the entire Godzilla series.