Zilla Jr. vs. Heisei Godzilla

[ZillaJr-KaijuKing]

You were going so well until you decided to put this 'GODZILLA IS A GALAXY DESTROYER' shit, dude. It's not Dragon Ball Z we're debating.

It's my own post, and there's nothing nearly that outlandish in there.

[gzillafan17]

The point still stands that you can't directly compare a surge of electricity to kinetic energy and you can't just say the shock was "less" than the missile impacts without any measure of the electricity weapon's energy output whatsoever.

First of all, Skeetera's fireballs were made from Zilla Jr.'s own atomic breath, and she received an additional strength boost from King Cobra.

Second, that Robo-Yeti feat could make the Robo-Yeti stronger than Heisei Godzilla.

http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/User_bl ... s_Strength

The force it would have exerted would allow it to easily lift almost 280,000 metric tons (compared to Heisei Godzilla lifting 150,000 metric tons).

That doesn't change that he was shifting his torso backward but was then flung clear to the side. The fact that his feet were both planted on the ground before the explosion means the explosion had to lift him off the ground.

Where?

We also saw clear flames from the explosion.

As Tomzilla said, Heisei Godzilla can and has been overwhelmed before.

The point still stand that he was subdued by electricity after taking the explosion of missiles that you calculated as exerting way more force then the mantle of the earth. That doesn't make sense.

How powerful is Jr's breath anyways, it good at cutting, but how about actual power. The explosion in the volcano wasn't all from his atomic breath.

And then remember the time he couldn't free himself out of a bridge. Not a good strength feat.

If you are unstable, knocking you over will be easier than normal, which can include knocking you over your feet.

Godzilla's nuclear pulse sent King Ghidroah (70,000 tons) flying as well.

In the Heisei Godzilla vs Team Showa Battle.

We don't even know how far or big the actual explosion was, he launched his atomic breath closer to the bee. But are you seriously saying that is atomic breath is more powerful than his Spiral Ray, then I don't know what to say.

When has he been overwhelmed and defeated by physical force?

And Godzilla still has better strength feats, pushing over a much larger building then him with one arm, destroying Daikuko Island, slamming Battra in the ground hard enough to create a giant crevice, and throwing King Ghidorah hard enough to create a large crevice in the ground.

[Tomzilla]

Someone more qualified than me needs to do a calculation on how heavy they think the skyscraper Heisei Godzilla pushed over with one hand was.

There's something I've been meaning to ask. Why do you always refer to Zilla Jr.'s atomic breath as a "thermonuclear" breath? Is it ever stated anywhere that it's thermonuclear? "Thermonuclear" refers to nuclear fusion via extremely high temperatures (tens of millions of degrees for pressures in the cores of stars and hundreds of millions to billions of degrees on Earth) as opposed to fission (like Heisei Godzilla's). If there's actual evidence for this it would be really helpful because I've gotten arguments on another forum that it's just ordinary fire.

Old habit. I read it listed as such a long time ago on an old site called Godzilla Tower. I thought it was a nice way to distinguish Toonzilla's power breath from Godzilla's.

The power line thing has three other electricity-based feats pegging it an outlier (Crackler, Robo-Yeti, Lizard Slayer). For "unimpressive physical strikes" all I can really think of aside from other kaijus' attacks is the time he got KOed by missiles in "Winter of our Discontent," which has Tachyon weapons, Lizard Slayer missiles, the Crackler's punch, and the cliff smashing feat from "Leviathan" outnumbering it. Is there anything else that needs to be addressed?

Well first it's important to realize that just because high-end feats exist doesn't mean they're the only game in town. Low-end and average ranked showings are valid, and it's usually best to start with the more consistent ones first.

The Shrewster inadvertently blew a boat into Toonzilla's face, which KO'd him. Toonzilla didn't regenerate the superficial claw marks left by the Shrewster, at least not as fast as he should've. While chasing the Giant Bat down, Toonzilla became caught up in a bridge, and was unable to break free. The Swamp Beast threw Toonzilla on a mansion, which made Toonzilla writhe helplessly in pain. Several Ice Borers were able to overheat him with their bodies, which was absurd, considering how hotter attacks never made him pass out.

[ZillaJr-KaijuKing]

Old habit. I read it listed as such a long time ago on an old site called Godzilla Tower. I thought it was a nice way to distinguish Toonzilla's power breath from Godzilla's.

Was that some kind of fan site with a fan-written description or was there anything to suggest it may have been from an official statement? I can't seem to find any traces of that site.

Well first it's important to realize that just because high-end feats exist doesn't mean they're the only game in town. Low-end and average ranked showings are valid, and it's usually best to start with the more consistent ones first.

Yeah, but he was able to keep fighting all three other times and the electrocution from the Robo-Yeti even lasted anywhere from 36 seconds to well over a minute (not including time skip), so in this case getting KOed by a quick shock from a power line is pretty far below average.

The Shrewster inadvertently blew a boat into Toonzilla's face, which KO'd him. Toonzilla didn't regenerate the superficial claw marks left by the Shrewster, at least not as fast as he should've. While chasing the Giant Bat down, Toonzilla became caught up in a bridge, and was unable to break free. The Swamp Beast threw Toonzilla on a mansion, which made Toonzilla writhe helplessly in pain. Several Ice Borers were able to overheat him with their bodies, which was absurd, considering how hotter attacks never made him pass out.

The boat thing was well below the missiles, yes, but it was also below him repeatedly headbutting away monsters weighing tens of thousands of tons, shattering that underwater cliff, and taking a club to the face from the giant turtle.

He still managed to regenerate from the Shrewster's claw wounds within seconds.

Getting caught in the bridge was pretty blatant PIS. Everything he does, from the things I just mentioned to throwing the Black Widow and Norzzug with a flick of his head to tackling Queen Bee through another bridge to jumping several hundred meters despite weighing 60,000 tons should mean this falls squarely within outlier territory rather than average.

The Swamp Beast was also strong enough to throw him like a cheap toy with one arm, and it tackled him onto the mansion.

The Ice Borers didn't overheat him. They melted the snow under his feet and he fell.

The point still stand that he was subdued by electricity after taking the explosion of missiles that you calculated as exerting way more force then the mantle of the earth. That doesn't make sense.

That's not a valid counterargument. You aren't giving any measure of the electricity's power output whatsoever. All you did was repeat what you said before.

How powerful is Jr's breath anyways, it good at cutting, but how about actual power. The explosion in the volcano wasn't all from his atomic breath.

How was that explosion not all from his atomic breath? What else could it have been?

If we can use its best feat (creating the storm with the manta ray), it should be noted that there's a report of a 3.8 Megaton hydrogen bomb causing a thunderstorm 10 minutes after detonation.

http://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/2012/11/ ... nderstorm/

Zilla Jr. and the Sub-Zero Manta created the strongest type of thunderstorm in a few seconds from their beam clash. As a side effect.

The volcano explosion is harder to quantify. I tried it, but I'm not experienced in ang sizing calcs so I went with the formula I was given.

If you are unstable, knocking you over will be easier than normal, which can include knocking you over your feet.

Except he wasn't just knocked over. He was thrown through the air.

Godzilla's nuclear pulse sent King Ghidroah (70,000 tons) flying as well.

But the force per unit area would be much lower because it's much less concentrated than a direct hit from the missiles (or the Tachyons' energy cannons).

When has he been overwhelmed and defeated by physical force?

I didn't say pure physical force, but Rodan had him on the ropes for a time and he's less adept at melee and less equipped than Zilla Jr. King Ghidorah was also beating him until the mind control over him wore off. During his battle with Mothra and Battra, he was downed for half a minute by half a building falling on top of him and then almost a minute and a half when a bigger building fell on top of him.

And Godzilla still has better strength feats, pushing over a much larger building then him with one arm, destroying Daikuko Island, slamming Battra in the ground hard enough to create a giant crevice, and throwing King Ghidorah hard enough to create a large crevice in the ground.

You need to measure the weight of the building and take into account the leverage he had over it before claiming that's a better strength feat than exerting enough force to lift Bagan's weight with one arm.

Are there any videos of him destroying Daikuko Island? "Destroying Daikuko Island" is too vague a statement by itself.

The Battra and King Ghidorah feats I already addressed.

[Zarm]

Are there any videos of him destroying Daikuko Island? "Destroying Daikuko Island" is too vague a statement by itself.

Are we talking about the opening of Return of Godzilla? I'm going to be watching that a couple of days from now, so I can check then- but most synopses I'm seeing indicate a volcanic eruption which wakes Godzilla, rather than anything he did to it. (Unless there is another incident my Googling did not uncover...?)

[gzillafan17]

That's not a valid counterargument. You aren't giving any measure of the electricity's power output whatsoever. All you did was repeat what you said before.

How was that explosion not all from his atomic breath? What else could it have been?

If we can use its best feat (creating the storm with the manta ray), it should be noted that there's a report of a 3.8 Megaton hydrogen bomb causing a thunderstorm 10 minutes after detonation.

http://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/2012/11/ ... nderstorm/

Zilla Jr. and the Sub-Zero Manta created the strongest type of thunderstorm in a few seconds from their beam clash. As a side effect.

The volcano explosion is harder to quantify. I tried it, but I'm not experienced in ang sizing calcs so I went with the formula I was given.

Except he wasn't just knocked over. He was thrown through the air.

But the force per unit area would be much lower because it's much less concentrated than a direct hit from the missiles (or the Tachyons' energy cannons).

I didn't say pure physical force, but Rodan had him on the ropes for a time and he's less adept at melee and less equipped than Zilla Jr. King Ghidorah was also beating him until the mind control over him wore off. During his battle with Mothra and Battra, he was downed for half a minute by half a building falling on top of him and then almost a minute and a half when a bigger building fell on top of him.

You need to measure the weight of the building and take into account the leverage he had over it before claiming that's a better strength feat than exerting enough force to lift Bagan's weight with one arm.

Are there any videos of him destroying Daikuko Island? "Destroying Daikuko Island" is too vague a statement by itself.

The Battra and King Ghidorah feats I already addressed.

He has been KOed by less as Tomzilla has stated. All those feat also outnumber his high end feats as well.

Got a question about the volcano one, from what point did you say the explosion started? By Jr are farther down the tunnel.

The storm one, has been argued before by other people, he hasn't come close to that power level before, it is an outlier.

Are you saying Rodan almost beat Godzilla, because he came nowhere near that, he knocked him over a few times, knocked him into a hill, and Godzilla was perfectly fine, even outsmarting Rodan a few times and getting him to come up close for a brutal beat down.

King Ghidorah was jumping on Godzilla with 70,000 tons for several minutes and as soon as he stopped Godzilla got right back up and was fine. Mechagodzilla 2 bombarded him and he got back up, Spacegodzilla through him through a building and hit him with his corona beam, and he got right back up and he swam through the mantle, those feats cancel out the fight with Mothra and Battra.

There is a clip on the Spacebattles forum Kaiju respect thread.

He slammed Battra into the ground creating a giant crevice and he threw King Ghidorah and he caused a large crevice.

Still can't think of a plausible way for Jr to win this.
Added in 2 minutes 12 seconds:

Are we talking about the opening of Return of Godzilla? I'm going to be watching that a couple of days from now, so I can check then- but most synopses I'm seeing indicate a volcanic eruption which wakes Godzilla, rather than anything he did to it. (Unless there is another incident my Googling did not uncover...?)

The way the volcano was destroyed looked like something was pushing it form within.

[ZillaJr-KaijuKing]

He has been KOed by less as Tomzilla has stated. All those feat also outnumber his high end feats as well.

Did you completely ignore the first half of the comment you quoted? The high ends easily outnumber the low ends.

Got a question about the volcano one, from what point did you say the explosion started? By Jr are farther down the tunnel.

The explosion started at the entrance to the tunnel. I counted from the moment Queen Bee disappeared from view inside the tunnel up to the moment the flames from the explosion were no longer visible, then multiplied that by her speed to get the distance she flew after vanishing.

King Ghidorah was jumping on Godzilla with 70,000 tons for several minutes and as soon as he stopped Godzilla got right back up and was fine. Mechagodzilla 2 bombarded him and he got back up, Spacegodzilla through him through a building and hit him with his corona beam, and he got right back up and he swam through the mantle, those feats cancel out the fight with Mothra and Battra.

Being downed for "several minutes" by a monster a little heavier than himself just jumping on top of him isn't a good look for him, particularly when Jr. can exert more force than that.

Godzilla would have lost all of those fights if it weren't for outside help. It's not like he shrugs off everything that happens to him.

He slammed Battra into the ground creating a giant crevice and he threw King Ghidorah and he caused a large crevice.

Again, a barely visible dent isn't the same as splitting the ground apart. If Zilla Jr.'s storm feat is an outlier, so is the Battra feat (and at least Jr. has an excuse for his varying power output).

The way the volcano was destroyed looked like something was pushing it form within.

That would be expected of volcanic eruptions, too. Didn't Godzilla also need human intervention to escape from a volcano in Godzilla vs. Biollante?

[LamangoKaijura]

The 'human intervention' wasn't intentional. They just blew up bombs in the volcano and godzilla got cranky cause it woke him up and he was all 'FUCK YOU I'M A DINOSAUR, I NEED TO SLEEP'

[gzillafan17]

Did you completely ignore the first half of the comment you quoted? The high ends easily outnumber the low ends.

Being downed for "several minutes" by a monster a little heavier than himself just jumping on top of him isn't a good look for him.

Godzilla would have lost all of those fights if it weren't for outside help. It's not like he shrugs off everything that happens to him.

Again, a barely visible dent isn't the same as splitting the ground apart. If Zilla Jr.'s storm feat is an outlier, so is the Battra feat (and at least Zilla Jr. has an excuse for his varying power output).

That would be expected of volcanic eruptions, too. Didn't Godzilla also need human intervention to escape from a volcano in Godzilla vs. Biollante?

Tomzilla alone just mentioned 5 feats that are substantially lower than the feats you mentioned. The high ends don't outnumber the lower ones.

He kept trying to get back up. We already know Ghidorah is very strong and he was jumping up fairly high and slamming his feet into Godzilla for several minutes and then Godzilla got right back up as if nothing happened.

MG2 only beat him due to an exploitable weakness, Godzilla was tanking his entire arsenal and kept fighting. Godzilla was giving Spacegodzilla a hard time and kept coming at him, despite everything he threw at him.

Godzilla slammed Battra into the ground hard enough to create a giant crevice. Godzilla threw Ghidorah hard enough to create a large crevice. He did it twice.

No, he was just sleeping, they woke him up. He also came out of a volcano in Godzilla vs Mothra.

[ZillaJr-KaijuKing]

Tomzilla alone just mentioned 5 feats that are substantially lower than the feats you mentioned. The high ends don't outnumber the lower ones.

So you did ignore my response.

The boat thing was well below the missiles, yes, but it was also below him repeatedly headbutting away monsters weighing tens of thousands of tons, shattering that underwater cliff, and taking a club to the face from the giant turtle.

He still managed to regenerate from the Shrewster's claw wounds within seconds.

Getting caught in the bridge was pretty blatant PIS. Everything he does, from the things I just mentioned to throwing the Black Widow and Norzzug with a flick of his head to tackling Queen Bee through another bridge to jumping several hundred meters despite weighing 60,000 tons should mean this falls squarely within outlier territory rather than average.

The Swamp Beast was also strong enough to throw him like a cheap toy with one arm, and it tackled him onto the mansion.

The Ice Borers didn't overheat him. They melted the snow under his feet and he fell.

Only 2-3 of the mentioned low showings were accurate and I can name 10+ high showings against them. The high showings outnumber the low showings at least 3 to 1.

He kept trying to get back up. We already know Ghidorah is very strong and he was jumping up fairly high and slamming his feet into Godzilla for several minutes and then Godzilla got right back up as if nothing happened.

First of all, I watched the fight again and it wasn't "several minutes." It was half a minute.

https://youtu.be/qMSaNRrdV8s?t=215

Second, the force of King Ghidorah landing on him wouldn't be nearly that of something like this, or this, or this.

How about Zilla Jr.'s atomic breath exerting enough force against Cyber-Zilla to send the likes of Biollante and Bagan 20 stories off the ground? That's more than any Heisei beam ever did.

MG2 only beat him due to an exploitable weakness, Godzilla was tanking his entire arsenal and kept fighting. Godzilla was giving Spacegodzilla a hard time and kept coming at him, despite everything he threw at him.

He didn't "tank" MG2's assault. He was noticeable hurt throughout the fight. Same with SpaceGodzilla.

Godzilla slammed Battra into the ground hard enough to create a giant crevice. Godzilla threw Ghidorah hard enough to create a large crevice. He did it twice.

You're just repeating yourself again. The results weren't nearly equal. In fact, looking at the King Ghidorah scene again, Godzilla didn't even make a crater that time.

By your logic, Zilla Jr. creating a storm isn't an outlier because "he did it twice" even though the second was clearly much bigger than the first.

[Kiryu2012]

Godzilla wins. His Atomic Ray, while not super powerful, is strong enough to give Zilla concern, and he loves to spam such an attack. Zilla is faster for sure, and is easily Godzilla's superior in melee combat. But Godzilla's durability and regeneration will allow him to survive even Zilla's Atomic Ray without serious issue. Godzilla is also stronger despite being not very good in melee, and his Nuclear Pulse will help negate any melee assault Zilla tries against him.

[gzillafan17]

Only 2-3 of the mentioned low showings were accurate and I can name 10+ high showings against them. The high showings outnumber the low showings at least 3 to 1.

First of all, I watched the fight again and it wasn't "several minutes." It was half a minute.

Second, the force of King Ghidorah landing on him wouldn't be nearly that of something like this, or this, or this.

How about Zilla Jr.'s atomic breath exerting enough force against Cyber-Zilla to send the likes of Biollante and Bagan 20 stories off the ground? That's more than any Heisei beam ever did.

He didn't "tank" MG2's assault. He was noticeable hurt throughout the fight. Same with SpaceGodzilla.

You're just repeating yourself again. The results weren't nearly equal. In fact, looking at the King Ghidorah scene again, Godzilla didn't even make a crater that time.

By your logic, Zilla Jr. creating a storm isn't an outlier because "he did it twice" even though the second was clearly much bigger than the first.

Can you mention all the feats that are as high end as cliff feat and storm feat. You didn't really debunk them, the borers were overheating him, he got caught in a bridge, he got KOed by a boat, he was visibly in pain after getting tackled into a building, etc.

Conceded. Another point though is that King Ghidorah was either flying up a little and dropping or jumping fairly high, either way he still jumped onto his head and it's not like it actually injured him at all. Literally as soon as he stopped Godzilla got right back up like nothing ever happened.

Considering he got right back up and kept fighting he was taking those beams fairly good, he got hit fell down, got back up and fought like usual.

Let me repeat myself one more time. Godzilla slammed Battra into the ocean floor hard enough to create a giant crevice. Godzilla Threw King Ghidorah and created a deep whole/crevice (we can't see how deep it was) that was large enough to fit his whole body minus his wings in. It is not as big but similar. That is twice he performed a feat similar on 2 different occasions.

[ZillaJr-KaijuKing]

Can you mention all the feats that are as high end as cliff feat and storm feat. You didn't really debunk them, the borers were overheating him, he got caught in a bridge, he got KOed by a boat, he was visibly in pain after getting tackled into a building, etc.

Are you even reading my comments or just skimming them over? I've posted my list of feats twice now.

Shattering and blowing away that chunk of a mountain from the Leviathan episode is on par with the other cliff feat.

Consistently tossing around monsters weighing tens of thousands of tons is vastly above a one-time PIS of getting caught in a bridge. You do realize outliers can work both ways, don't you?

The Ice Borers didn't overheat him. They simply melted the ice under him. Repeating a wrong statement doesn't magically make it right.

Considering the Swamp Beast was strong enough to easily throw him with just one arm as I already stated, the tackling feat could very well have been a high strength showing for the Swamp Beast rather than a low showing for Zilla Jr.'s durability.

Considering he got right back up and kept fighting he was taking those beams fairly good, he got hit fell down, got back up and fought like usual.

Super MechaGodzilla's beam barrage was too much for him to effectively fight back and overtaxed him even without the aid of the G-Crushers. A Super MechaGodzilla vs. Heisei Godzilla thread just got locked due to being one-sided for exactly this reason. He didn't shrug off anything.

Let me repeat myself one more time. Godzilla slammed Battra into the ocean floor hard enough to create a giant crevice. Godzilla Threw King Ghidorah and created a deep whole/crevice (we can't see how deep it was) that was large enough to fit his whole body minus his wings in. It is not as big but similar. That is twice he performed a feat similar on 2 different occasions.

That's the problem. You're just repeating yourself without adding anything substantial to the claims I've already addressed no less than three times. I gave video evidence disproving your claim about King Ghidorah's scene and you're still parroting the same debunked statement. Are we really going to keep talking in circles over this?

[gzillafan17]

Are you even reading my comments or just skimming them over? I've posted my list of feats twice now.

Shattering and blowing away that chunk of a mountain from the Leviathan episode is on par with the other cliff feat.

Consistently tossing around monsters weighing tens of thousands of tons is vastly above a one-time PIS of getting caught in a bridge. You do realize outliers can work both ways, don't you?

The Ice Borers didn't overheat him. They simply melted the ice under him. Repeating a wrong statement doesn't magically make it right.

Considering the Swamp Beast was strong enough to easily throw him with just one arm as I already stated, the tackling feat could very well have been a high strength showing for the Swamp Beast rather than a low showing for Zilla Jr.'s durability.

Super MechaGodzilla's beam barrage was too much for him to effectively fight back and overtaxed him even without the aid of the G-Crushers. A Super MechaGodzilla vs. Heisei Godzilla thread just got locked due to being one-sided for exactly this reason. He didn't shrug off anything.

That's the problem. You're just repeating yourself without adding anything substantial to the claims I've already addressed no less than three times. I gave video evidence disproving your claim about King Ghidorah's scene and you're still parroting the same debunked statement. Are we really going to keep talking in circles over this?

I will respond to this one more time, but then after that I wish to end the debate here, so there is no need to respond. This has become tedious and boring. Other people more qualified than me on other forums have debunked his feats before and I doubt I will convince you.

That was my point, just because he has a few low end feats, they do not cancel out his average one and the same applies in the opposite direction.

Heisei also tosses around kaiju that weigh 2.5 times his weight. Plus we don't even have official weights for a lot of the kaiju in the series.

The Ice Borers were having some kind of negative effect on him as he was struggling while are they were doing were hanging on him.

Considering after both assaults from SG and SMG2 he was able to fight like he just got there right after the bombardment stopped, he took them pretty well. As most he would be dazed or knocked down for a minute or two.

1) Godzilla slams Battra into the ground hard enough to create a giant crevice.

2) Godzilla THROWS Ghidorah away and when he slams into the ground a crevice/hole opens up large enough to fit his body minus his wings in and we can't see how deep the crevice is. You linked to a different part.

I do not wish to continue this debate please.

[ZillaJr-KaijuKing]

I will respond to this one more time, but then after that I wish to end the debate here, so there is no need to respond. This has become tedious and boring. Other people more qualified than me on other forums have debunked his feats before and I doubt I will convince you.

That was my point, just because he has a few low end feats, they do not cancel out his average one and the same applies in the opposite direction.

Heisei also tosses around kaiju that weigh 2.5 times his weight. Plus we don't even have official weights for a lot of the kaiju in the series.

The Ice Borers were having some kind of negative effect on him as he was struggling while are they were doing were hanging on him.

Considering after both assaults from SG and SMG2 he was able to fight like he just got there right after the bombardment stopped, he took them pretty well. As most he would be dazed or knocked down for a minute or two.

1) Godzilla slams Battra into the ground hard enough to create a giant crevice.

2) Godzilla THROWS Ghidorah away and when he slams into the ground a crevice/hole opens up large enough to fit his body minus his wings in and we can't see how deep the crevice is. You linked to a different part.

I do not wish to continue this debate please.

For future reference, "other people on another forum said this about this feat" isn't good vs debate practice and is generally frowned upon if you don't defend or put the arguments in your own words. You didn't say anything directly countering many of the feats I brought up. If this is about SpaceBattles again, many of those feats weren't even mentioned there, and a good chunk of debunking attempts were the result of inconsistent applications of the rules regarding physics in fiction.

Also, "we can't see how deep the crevice is" hurts your argument because it suggests you can't prove they were the same size.