KKT: Stuck Nasty vs IR

[GojiFan]

I never said he would be actively trying to avoid anything. But the fact that he can be so mobile AND has heavy armor on top of that means there's little any of Stuckey's team can do to stop him from getting close.

There is literally zero ranged weapons in Betterman close to the power that several of the members of Stuckey's team have. Implying that Forte could tank a beam from Zeruel or Bio-Volcano is just foolish. A beam from one of those two would at the least severely injure him, if not kill him.

No, it really wasn't. Most of the distance between them was from ZX-Tole "staggering" back after the punch connected, not from the force of the blow itself.

The anime does a typical freeze frame when the punch lands, and then afterward ZX-Tole flies backward. Unless you are trying to tell me ZX-Tole and the Gigantic just stood there holding their pose for 2 or so seconds before deciding to fight again.

Also, it wasn't really an act of desperation on ZX-Tole's part. He knew he was gonna die soon anyway thanks to his rushed optimization, so he wanted, and I quote, to "go out with a bang." Was pretty much intended as a big middle finger to Guyver, Aptom, and Chronos.

Except that isn't how it goes down. ZX-Tole screams in pain when he gets punched, and then is seen holding his mid-section and struggling with his speech.

It wasn't like he just went "oh darn, that was a good punch. Well, time to fly to space." One punch from the Gigantic hurt him so badly that ZX-Tole knew instantly he could not win.

...K? The fact of the matter is Guyver Gigantic hardly does anything in battle. That he "didn't need to exert any real combat skills" is irrelevant. We can only really go by what he was was shown doing on-screen. And he hardly did anything.

He hardly did anything because the fight only lasted all of 5 seconds , IR. I can't believe how you can't seem to grasp that concept. According to Stuckey, it sounds like Sho is in control of the Gigantic. We know how Sho fights, and he is not an inactive fighter.

Whoa whoa whoa. Back up. You're one of the loudest proponents of Lucy being unable to block energy weapons. That means you think energy passes through them with no effect. Thus, you should think that they would pass through energy with no effect. You can't have it both ways.

And quite frankly, if they can phase through solid matter, there's no reason to believe they couldn't do the same with energy.

Do you know why I said she can't block them IR? Because energy weapons generally are constant streams instead of a small, solid projectile. Because energy weapons "flow" around physical barriers. Because a lot of energy weapons either explode when they hit something, or have pretty insane amounts of kinetic energy behind them as well. She can put her vectors up and they will hit them first, but they will kill her regardless because of the nature of them being energy and how frail she is.

And no it doesn't. Energy may be just another "form" of matter, but it behaves extremely differently than solid matter does.

And as YOU so conveniently ignored last time, while the vectors may be slower than a beam once it's been fired, I think it goes without saying that dodging an INVISIBLE and STILL FAST attack proves she's MORE than capable of getting out of the way of something that has an obvious and lengthy charge time.

Regular humans were dodging the vectors at times. And it is made quite clear through out the series that Dicloni don't really have any sort of issues with seeing each others vectors, as Mariko easily "caught" Lucy's vectors.

And I said this before IR. Lucy doesn't know what is going on when something charges a beam. The viewer of those monsters/zoids/whatever do, and the people within those universes do as well, but Lucy doesn't. She has zero experience with such weapons, and zero idea what to do when fired at her. She more than likely will try blocking them like she does with bullets, which as I explained before would be the death of her.

Well, there's still Forte, who can defeat the majority of your team thanks to Psycho Glory.

Can he? Yes. Will he? More than likely no.

As for Zeruel, while it takes a long time for Ramiel to charge his mountain buster, its not like Zeruel's particularly responsive, or hell, makes an attempt to dodge anything. He just tries to flatten/block stuff with his AT field half the time. So when/if the mountain buster comes he won't be able, or rather just plain won't make any attempt to stop it except to concentrate his AT field.

Which might be a problem if it didn't take two Eva's just to get through his AT Field, and if his body wasn't durable enough to take a point blank N2 mine without the smallest bit of damage.

In any case, thanks to their fighting style, EX Gomora, Armored Darkness and Guyver Gigantic (and probably Liger Zero) are going to get in close. This won't end well for the former two, who will be mowed down by Ramiel, Empera and Berserk Fury. In contrast on the other side, only Bio-Volcano (Zeruel if you count his AT field play) likes to use ranged combat, alowing, say, Forte to move in. Zeruel isn't even a particularly offensive fighter. He just stood there and extended his AT field for the majority of the fight.

First, the Gigantic doesn't "charge" anything. The closest thing he did to charging someone was when he flew up in the air to see ZX-Tole face-to-face. He more than likely will end up sheilding his teammates from anything shot at them to start the match. EX Gomora and AD are also more than capable of closing the distance to the BF if he decides to charge the CPC. But that is assuming he does, since he never used his CPC to start a fight except against the Genosaurers.

Guyver Gigantic may be the technical strongest fighter in this match, but his fists aren't going to cut it with Empera, Ramiel or even Neo-ZX-tole. May batter them but defitniely can't kill them, especially Empera. Unless everyone from IR's side takes to space, the Giga Smasher has a high chance of killing everyone else including himself when he fires it, hence making it more or less a non-factor. Zeruel could murder en masse if he spammed his eye beams- unfortunately, he's one of the least active fighters here. His arm blades are deadly but rarely used and I think Empera and ZX-tole could tank 'em, considering the former has blocked blades just as impressive with his bare hand.

Please tell me you are joking with the bold. The Gigantic landed a single punch on ZX-Tole that made him scream in pain and clutch his midsection. ZX-Tole is utterly screwed if he fights the Gigantic first, which he more than likely will due to his natural hate for the guyvers. And no, he doesn't need to fire it from space and he won't die if he doesn't. He is more than capable of firing it from an even level as the other fighters and wipe out everything that gets caught in it.

Zeruel's arm blades more than likely can damage anything on the other team. Keep in mind, they easily chopped through Eva-02. The Evas, even without AT Fields, are pretty damn hard to damage.

BF's movements were downright sluggish by the time he started fighting LZ. He literally couldn't even keep up with LZ, and the shots from his beam cannon outright missed LZ even though Vega displayed freakishly precise aim prior to that. There's no way you can say BF wasn't severely hindered in that fight.

They were sluggish because the BF couldn't keep up with the Liger. Yes Vega was tired, but Bit was just as tired himself as Stuckey said.

It took LZ two prior ass-whoopings for its Organoid System to effectively counter BF. BF's Organoid System adapted to being overwhelmed and began countering what was countering him within just a few minutes. His System is far superior.

Except Vega had prior experience dealing with Bit and knew how to adjust his strategy to deal with him, where as Bit did not. Even in the first fight, you can see that Bit had already begun to adapt the Liger to Vega and the BF, even though Vega had the advantage of knowing the pilot of the Liger and how he fought. This does not include any possible information the Back Draft gave Vega on Bit and the Liger Zero before they ever even met, which would further put the advantage in Vega's favor.

[Stuckey]

Let's not forget that the Gigantic has really good regeneration.

[Primevalgodzilla V2]

Can he? Yes. Will he? More than likely no.

Well, whoever he fights is pretty screwed, save for Zeruel or AD. He's extremely tough in his own right.

Which might be a problem if it didn't take two Eva's just to get through his AT Field, and if his body wasn't durable enough to take a point blank N2 mine without the smallest bit of damage.

The Evas were using pure melee, not a beam powerful enough to melt much of a mountain. Beast mode smashed through 6 or 7 layers by jumping into the AT field alone. Its not like Awakened Eva's blasts were much stronger than Ramiel's supercharged particle beam anyway, based on the level of environmental devastation.

First, the Gigantic doesn't "charge" anything. The closest thing he did to charging someone was when he flew up in the air to see ZX-Tole face-to-face.

Well, yeah. But that's the only case of him actually properly engaging in combat, so its the best measure of his fighting style.

EX Gomora and AD are also more than capable of closing the distance to the BF if he decides to charge the CPC.

Not really. They are too slow. Especially AD. Guy's gonna take an eternity to march across to the other side. EX Gomora may stand a chance of getting close but he will be massively injured by either Ramiel's or BF's firepower, and will be easy pickings for whoever he engages. Assuming Empera doesn't knock them both flat on their asses with a shockwave before they get close.

But that is assuming he does, since he never used his CPC to start a fight except against the Genosaurers.

Well, if it comes down to melee that's going to be quite interesting. Don't see anyone getting close to Ramiel, Empera or Zeruel though. Still, the most devastating attacks are the ranged ones and IR's team simply seems more willing to use it.

Please tell me you are joking with the bold. The Gigantic landed a single punch on ZX-Tole that made him scream in pain and clutch his midsection. ZX-Tole is utterly screwed if he fights the Gigantic first, which he more than likely will due to his natural hate for the guyvers.

There is a huge difference between battering and killing. I simply don't see Guyver getting rid of IR's tougher members with his bare hands alone. Neo ZX-tole may have been hurt but I seriosuly doubt Guyver would have been able to kill him without the Giga Smasher.

And no, he doesn't need to fire it from space and he won't die if he doesn't. He is more than capable of firing it from an even level as the other fighters and wipe out everything that gets caught in it.

Well duh. I'm not saying he can't fire a beam from the ground. But it happened that Neo ZX-tole had the convenience of being in space when he was hsot, preventing Guyver from suffering the impact of his own blast.

Zeruel's arm blades more than likely can damage anything on the other team. Keep in mind, they easily chopped through Eva-02. The Evas, even without AT Fields, are pretty damn hard to damage.

Zamshaa split a 7 km comet into half in one slash. Hikari, in his basal form (he battled Empera in Aabu Armor Mode, which is much stronger) basically split clean in half, no fuss, a monster which had previously withstoof Mebium Beams, Specium Missiles and the Gatling Detonator without so much as a scratch. Empera blocked both blades with his bare hand.

But those blades would tear up everyone else pretty bad though.

[GojiFan]

Well, whoever he fights is pretty screwed, save for Zeruel or AD. He's extremely tough in his own right.

Which implies he would either:

A) Make it through what would effectively become a no man's land as beams from both sides get used.
or
B) Uses it before he himself gets killed.

The psychoglory is all well and good, but Forte never used it until his enemy was basically finished. He never used it early in a fight.

The Evas were using pure melee, not a beam powerful enough to melt much of a mountain. Beast mode smashed through 6 or 7 layers by jumping into the AT field alone. Its not like Awakened Eva's blasts were much stronger than Ramiel's supercharged particle beam anyway, based on the level of environmental devastation.

Except both were actively trying to neutralize Zeruel's AT Field as well. As I have said before, using one AT Field to penetrate another makes a world of difference in trying to harm the Angel/Eva.

Well, yeah. But that's the only case of him actually properly engaging in combat, so its the best measure of his fighting style.

Not really. You can just as easily view it as him taking the battle away from his vulnerable friends.

There is a huge difference between battering and killing. I simply don't see Guyver getting rid of IR's tougher members with his bare hands alone. Neo ZX-tole may have been hurt but I seriosuly doubt Guyver would have been able to kill him without the Giga Smasher.

You are seriously wrong. As I said before, the Gigantic was created by Sho to defeat Archenfal. While Neo ZX-Tole is very powerful, he is nothing compared to Archenfal. If ZX-Tole decided to stand around and fight the Gigantic face-to-face he still would have gotten thrashed.

Well duh. I'm not saying he can't fire a beam from the ground. But it happened that Neo ZX-tole had the convenience of being in space when he was hsot, preventing Guyver from suffering the impact of his own blast.

Someone needs to watch the Guyver series. The mega smasher doesn't explode when it hits a target. It just keeps going. Plenty of times it had been used at an even level to the opponent without any harm what-so-ever to the Guyver. Instead, it vaporizes the target and leaves huge and deep trenches in the dirt in the direction it was fired in for quite a distance. Only if the Gigantic fired it straight down at the ground would it have to worry about any sort of damage to itself.

[Primevalgodzilla V2]

Which implies he would either:

A) Make it through what would effectively become a no man's land as beams from both sides get used.

The only party that will be using beams on IR's side is Bio Volcano. Clearly Ramiel, Berserk Fury and Empera won't shoot their ally, and Forte is more than capable of dealing with BV's firepower. Guyver doesn't start with a beam, Liger Zero is pure melee, Zeruel is enormously passive, and EX Gomie and AD are nearly entirely melee users.

B) Uses it before he himself gets killed.

I'm pretty sure he can at least go toe to toe with everyone here 'cept for Zeruel and AD.

The psychoglory is all well and good, but Forte never used it until his enemy was basically finished. He never used it early in a fight.

I believe he was in an armlock with the behemoth when he used it (albeit he did beat up the Behemoth abit before that).

Except both were actively trying to neutralize Zeruel's AT Field as well. As I have said before, using one AT Field to penetrate another makes a world of difference in trying to harm the Angel/Eva.

Its still punches and bites vs mountain-melting beam.

Also, Eva Awakened's beams all but ripped apart an even stronger form of Zeruel, and frankly those don't seem much, if any, stronger than Ramiel's best shot.

Not really. You can just as easily view it as him taking the battle away from his vulnerable friends.

Its far from definiteive, but its still the only measure we got.

You are seriously wrong. As I said before, the Gigantic was created by Sho to defeat Archenfal. While Neo ZX-Tole is very powerful, he is nothing compared to Archenfal. If ZX-Tole decided to stand around and fight the Gigantic face-to-face he still would have gotten thrashed.

Whatever he was created to defeat, its not like he punched a hole into ZX-tole's armor or anything. If he had managed to do so, then yeah, maybe he can kill Neo ZX-tole (I'm not denying he can defeat him).

Someone needs to watch the Guyver series. The mega smasher doesn't explode when it hits a target. It just keeps going. Plenty of times it had been used at an even level to the opponent without any harm what-so-ever to the Guyver. Instead, it vaporizes the target and leaves huge and deep trenches in the dirt in the direction it was fired in for quite a distance. Only if the Gigantic fired it straight down at the ground would it have to worry about any sort of damage to itself.

Referring to Giga-smasher. While we don't actually see the big boosh due to random cutaways and such, there is an enormous circle in the clouds after GG defeats ZX-tole. If that wasn't caused by an explosion I don't know what did.

[Stuckey]

While we don't actually see the big boosh due to random cutaways and such, there is an enormous circle in the clouds after GG defeats ZX-tole. If that wasn't caused by an explosion I don't know what did.

It wasn't caused by an explosion. It was caused by the velocity of which the beam was traveling to disperse the clouds and such. Happens a lot in anime, DBZ is a pretty good example of this.
And the Gigantic has more than just his punches and Gigasmasher. He's also got the forehead beam and, apparently, his high frequency blades. Both of which are more than capable of taking out ZX-Tole. Not sure if he'd need to use them though, seeing as how he punched his way through a Zoalord's barrier and almost killed said Zoalord with punches in the manga. Yeah, yeah, I used a feat from the manga to explain his strength a little bit. Sue me.

[GojiFan]

^ Which really isn't that big of an issue since the anime was almost 100% accurate to the manga, and the creator, Yoshiki Takaya, was directly involved with the anime on numerous occasions. The whole idea that the Gigantic is an inactive fighter or wouldn't have thrashed ZX-Tole without the Giga Smasher is laughable. It is essentially a larger and far more powerful version of the original Guyver.

The only party that will be using beams on IR's side is Bio Volcano. Clearly Ramiel, Berserk Fury and Empera won't shoot their ally, and Forte is more than capable of dealing with BV's firepower. Guyver doesn't start with a beam, Liger Zero is pure melee, Zeruel is enormously passive, and EX Gomie and AD are nearly entirely melee users.

As I said before, the BF with Vega doesn't like to use it's CPC to start a fight. And considering that when Zeruel was presented with multiple enemies when he first arrived, and then used his beam to kill said enemies, it is not entirely out of the question he won't fire a beam sometime early in the match.

I'm pretty sure he can at least go toe to toe with everyone here 'cept for Zeruel and AD.

If you and IR keep underestimating how ridiculously powerful the Gigantic is then sure.... but that is the problem. You are both underestimating how ridiculously powerful the Gigantic is.

I believe he was in an armlock with the behemoth when he used it (albeit he did beat up the Behemoth abit before that).

Precisely. He had already been dominating the first Behemoth quite easily before he got a chance to use it. The time he used it on the second Behemoth was after it basically became paralyzed from the mushrooms (even though said mushrooms did not actually paralyze it).

Its still punches and bites vs mountain-melting beam.

Also, Eva Awakened's beams all but ripped apart an even stronger form of Zeruel, and frankly those don't seem much, if any, stronger than Ramiel's best shot.

*Sigh*

There is a reason that nothing short of the positron cannon and a few other rare examples were able to get through AT Fields without them being neutralized by the Eva first. They are very hard to get through. Not only was Eva 00 attempting to neutralize Zeruel's AT Field, but Rei was failing completely. Zeruel was actually starting to push the rocket back with its own AT Field, even with the attempts to neutralize it, when Unit 02 showed up and got through the rest of the field.

And you should go watch that scene again. Not only did Zeruel block the first beam, but the second beam created huge shockwaves after it hit the wall of the Geofront. The wall was quite possibly over a kilometer away given the size of the Geofront. The second beam was also powerful enough to not only rip through Zeruel's AT Field, but managed to physically harm it, which is something even a point blank N2 mine couldn't do.

Referring to Giga-smasher. While we don't actually see the big boosh due to random cutaways and such, there is an enormous circle in the clouds after GG defeats ZX-tole. If that wasn't caused by an explosion I don't know what did.

Please, go back and watch the scene, or the series in general. Both the Giga Smasher and the Mega Smasher do not create explosions when they hit anything. They completely vaporize what they hit. And in regards to the clouds, we see the beam still fully intact when it completely overpowers the Final Tempest. Next we see the beam fly off into space. There was no explosion what so ever.

[Primevalgodzilla V2]

^ Which really isn't that big of an issue since the anime was almost 100% accurate to the manga, and the creator, Yoshiki Takaya, was directly involved with the anime on numerous occasions.

Its still different material, and hence, his 'kill Zoalord with bare hands' feat doesn't count. And he has yet to use his high frequency blades and forehead beam in combat.

The whole idea that the Gigantic is an inactive fighter or wouldn't have thrashed ZX-Tole without the Giga Smasher is laughable. It is essentially a larger and far more powerful version of the original Guyver.

He is inactive based on what we see here. He is definitely larger and far more powerful, and can probably defeat Neo ZX-tole fairly easily, but I'm talking about killing here, for the umpteenth time. With his bare hands, I don't see how he's going to kill Neo ZX-tole, Empera (I'm sure he can knock those around , but kill?) or Ramiel (unless Sho's hiding an AT field in his pocket mere fists are useless).

If you and IR keep underestimating how ridiculously powerful the Gigantic is then sure.... but that is the problem. You are both underestimating how ridiculously powerful the Gigantic is.

Prob here is that he's only really got his (admittedly really strong, but nothing that extremely tanky people like Empera can't shrug off) fists here, and the Giga Smasher that almost everyone here can simply leap away, get behind Guyver or simply counterattack while Guyver starts obviously glowing like a Christmas tree.

Precisely. He had already been dominating the first Behemoth quite easily before he got a chance to use it. The time he used it on the second Behemoth was after it basically became paralyzed from the mushrooms (even though said mushrooms did not actually paralyze it).

Still, he had chosen to use it on the firts behemoth not on the multiple times the elephant was flat on its ass and squirming in pain but when they were both on even fighting ground (armlocking). Tells me something like that could happen here.

There is a reason that nothing short of the positron cannon and a few other rare examples were able to get through AT Fields without them being neutralized by the Eva first. They are very hard to get through. Not only was Eva 00 attempting to neutralize Zeruel's AT Field, but Rei was failing completely. Zeruel was actually starting to push the rocket back with its own AT Field, even with the attempts to neutralize it, when Unit 02 showed up and got through the rest of the field.

Its not like Unit 00 detonated the N2 mine onto the AT field. She was just pushing the field with the missile, which isn't particularly difficult for an average AT field to block. Beast mode was actually tearing through the field quite effectively until Zeruel sliced her arm and side off, and was actually almost through when Zeruel finally decided to retaliate.

And you should go watch that scene again. Not only did Zeruel block the first beam, but the second beam created huge shockwaves after it hit the wall of the Geofront. The wall was quite possibly over a kilometer away given the size of the Geofront. The second beam was also powerful enough to not only rip through Zeruel's AT Field, but managed to physically harm it, which is something even a point blank N2 mine couldn't do.

I actually just watched the scene yesterday. The first beam blasted apart some terrain and then all but obliterated Zeruel's AT field and sent him flying. The second first split him open, then all but decimated him in a massive explosion, nearly killing him. I'm inclined to think a beam that can vaporise the face of a mountain is going to be equally deadly to Zeruel.

Please, go back and watch the scene, or the series in general. Both the Giga Smasher and the Mega Smasher do not create explosions when they hit anything. They completely vaporize what they hit. And in regards to the clouds, we see the beam still fully intact when it completely overpowers the Final Tempest. Next we see the beam fly off into space. There was no explosion what so ever.

I stand corrected (the scene wasn't every clear with the cutaways and whatnot). I did know the Mega Smasher was more mana beam that spiral ray, but that scene with the Giga Smasher had seemd kinda ambiguous.

[Draglord]

Its still different material, and hence, his 'kill Zoalord with bare hands' feat doesn't count. And he has yet to use his high frequency blades and forehead beam in combat.

The Gigantic DID use its Power Head Beam in the anime. He used it on Citiciss (the bird Zoanoid that Purgstall sent to spy on the Neo ZX-Tole fight) and killed him (the manga shows him being blasted in half by the beam).

He is inactive based on what we see here. He is definitely larger and far more powerful, and can probably defeat Neo ZX-tole fairly easily, but I'm talking about killing here, for the umpteenth time. With his bare hands, I don't see how he's going to kill Neo ZX-tole, Empera (I'm sure he can knock those around , but kill?) or Ramiel (unless Sho's hiding an AT field in his pocket mere fists are useless).

The only reason why ZX-Tole even survived the punch is because of the way his armor is built to withstand gravity-based attacks like the Pressure Cannon and the Gigantic's Gravity Punch. Otherwise, ZX-Tole would've been skreeonk up by the Gigantic's Gravity Punch. Its gonna hurt the other members of IR's team more than it will on NZT.

ZX-Tole's VDF for reference: http://www.japan-legend.com/guyver_advo ... df-047.jpg

And an anatomy thingy of Neo ZX-Tole: http://www.japan-legend.com/guyver_advo ... df-054.jpg

I stand corrected (the scene wasn't every clear with the cutaways and whatnot). I did know the Mega Smasher was more mana beam that spiral ray, but that scene with the Giga Smasher had seemd kinda ambiguous.

The Mega/Giga Smasher are more like CPCs.

[GojiFan]

Its still different material, and hence, his 'kill Zoalord with bare hands' feat doesn't count. And he has yet to use his high frequency blades and forehead beam in combat.

I understand you guys don't want to use it (even though the anime is literally a near 100% adaptation of the manga's first 50 or so chapters). But I will address why it is important below (even though the info Draglord posted proves it anyway).

He is inactive based on what we see here. He is definitely larger and far more powerful, and can probably defeat Neo ZX-tole fairly easily, but I'm talking about killing here, for the umpteenth time. With his bare hands, I don't see how he's going to kill Neo ZX-tole, Empera (I'm sure he can knock those around , but kill?) or Ramiel (unless Sho's hiding an AT field in his pocket mere fists are useless).

You both need to stop saying he is inactive. As I have said several times, you both are claiming he "did nothing" even though the face-to-face fight didn't last long enough for him to do anything. It literally was over in seconds.

Now, this is why you both should take the manga into consideration. You don't even need to give him the other powers he demonstrated in the manga. He won't need them. Just look at his fighting style in the manga, and you will see it is ANYTHING BUT INACTIVE.

Prob here is that he's only really got his (admittedly really strong, but nothing that extremely tanky people like Empera can't shrug off) fists here, and the Giga Smasher that almost everyone here can simply leap away, get behind Guyver or simply counterattack while Guyver starts obviously glowing like a Christmas tree.

It isn't exactly easy to "leap" out of the way of the Giga Smasher. It travels pretty damn fast, and it is pretty damn wide. Also, you fail to realize that Sho tends not to use the mega smasher when the enemy can stop him from doing so (except in a few occasions where he gets surprised by an attack they have). Both Guyver units tend to use them when the enemy is distracted or where they are not in a position to stop it .

Also, if he were to fly up and shoot it down at the field... who exactly is going to stop him? Ramiel and ZX-Tole would be the prime examples, but he may very well be out of range of Ramiel and ZX-Tole would likely be dead.

Still, he had chosen to use it on the firts behemoth not on the multiple times the elephant was flat on its ass and squirming in pain but when they were both on even fighting ground (armlocking). Tells me something like that could happen here.

No, he chose to use it after the fight had basically already been decided. As I said before, there is no guarantee he will even last long enough to find himself in position to use it once.

Its not like Unit 00 detonated the N2 mine onto the AT field. She was just pushing the field with the missile, which isn't particularly difficult for an average AT field to block. Beast mode was actually tearing through the field quite effectively until Zeruel sliced her arm and side off, and was actually almost through when Zeruel finally decided to retaliate.

*Double sigh*

She not only was pushing it with the help of the missile's thrusters, but she was using her own AT Field to try neutralizing Zeruel's. As I have said several times, an AT Field that is being neutralized by another AT Field is much easier to penetrate than one that isn't. Zeruel's AT Field was strong enough to not only stop the missile and Rei, but was actually starting to push them back. And Beast Mode 02 was more than likely using its own AT field to help get through Zeruel's... which doesn't really matter, because it got whooped on before it ever did.

I actually just watched the scene yesterday. The first beam blasted apart some terrain and then all but obliterated Zeruel's AT field and sent him flying. The second first split him open, then all but decimated him in a massive explosion, nearly killing him. I'm inclined to think a beam that can vaporise the face of a mountain is going to be equally deadly to Zeruel.

You should watch it again.I'll even post a link of it for you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1Vu8-t_ ... re=related

The first beam did no such thing. The AT Field blocks it, yet the force still sends Zeruel flying back. You can see this in the next shot when the Eva shoots another beam and we see both Zeruel with no injuries (which means the first beam never got through the AT Field) and cutting through the AT Field. The beam also did not "decimate him." It causes a pretty nasty wound yes, but it did little more than just splitting his face mask-skull-thing in two and cutting through the protective plates over the S2 engine. Then you see the beam hit the geofront wall, which as I said looks to be well over 1 kilometer away, and create both a massive explosion and shockwave. Ramiel's "mountain melter" beam is certainly powerful, but it is not as powerful as the berserk Eva 01's beam.

[Primevalgodzilla V2]

I suppose we will have to agree to disagree about the manga thing. My standpoint is that if its not in the anime, its not there.

It isn't exactly easy to "leap" out of the way of the Giga Smasher. It travels pretty damn fast, and it is pretty damn wide. Also, you fail to realize that Sho tends not to use the mega smasher when the enemy can stop him from doing so (except in a few occasions where he gets surprised by an attack they have). Both Guyver units tend to use them when the enemy is distracted or where they are not in a position to stop it .

Not talking about the beam, which is pretty dang fast. I'm talking about its lengthy and incredibly obvious charge time. The more mobile members like BF, Neo ZX-tole, Lucy and Forte can just sidestep. Empera can just knock him flat on his ass with a shockwave. Ramiel's the only who can't really do much because of his immobility and his own beam's charge time.

And only using his GS when his foe is significantly wounded or distracted won't exactlly go well if he ends up against Empera or Ramiel.

Also, if he were to fly up and shoot it down at the field... who exactly is going to stop him? Ramiel and ZX-Tole would be the prime examples, but he may very well be out of range of Ramiel and ZX-Tole would likely be dead

Vega's an extremely accurate sniper, as is Empera. And mostly everyone's still more than capable of avoiding the beam. And he still can only kill one of them at a time due to the Giga Smasher's lack of explosive power.

I don't think Ramiel has a range. Eva was many miles away and he was dead on.

No, he chose to use it after the fight had basically already been decided. As I said before, there is no guarantee he will even last long enough to find himself in position to use it once.

I still find it strange that he decided to use it at the only moment of the fight where he and the Behemoth were evenly matched. But I will admit that could be an outlier.

She not only was pushing it with the help of the missile's thrusters, but she was using her own AT Field to try neutralizing Zeruel's.

Er, yeah, I know.

And Beast Mode 02 was more than likely using its own AT field to help get through Zeruel's... which doesn't really matter, because it got whooped on before it ever did.

Beast mode's AT field would weaken Zeruel's, but fact is we are referring to a beam that vaporised a massive portion of a mountain here. Is going to punch throug hlike the Positron Rifle (did to Ramiel) or Eva's eye beams did. And if they are not too far away, Ramiel's AT field would be neutralising Zeruel's. And Ramiel's AT field is far stronger than that of any non-Awakened Eva.

And the fact remains that Beast mode nearly did get through, and was only stopped by Zeruel's long-overdue retaliation.

The first beam did no such thing. The AT Field blocks it, yet the force still sends Zeruel flying back. You can see this in the next shot when the Eva shoots another beam and we see both Zeruel with no injuries (which means the first beam never got through the AT Field)

Watch the vid again. The moment the beam connected with Zeruel's field, it shattered and gave way instantly, shattering (understandably hard to see with the massive fireball and all). Why else would the field instantly disappear and Zeruel be thrown back hundreds of metres? Zeruel had previously shown great skill and sustainability with his AT field.

The beam also did not "decimate him." It causes a pretty nasty wound yes, but it did little more than just splitting his face mask-skull-thing in two and cutting through the protective plates over the S2 engine. Then you see the beam hit the geofront wall, which as I said looks to be well over 1 kilometer away, and create both a massive explosion and shockwave. Ramiel's "mountain melter" beam is certainly powerful, but it is not as powerful as the berserk Eva 01's beam.

Yep, first it merely slits him open like a loaf of bread. Then a massive fireball bursts from the ground. Next, we see Zeruel looking little more than a pile of mangled flesh on the floor, and utterly incapacitated. Eva's beam is strong, and caused massive terrain damage, but at no point did it devastate a mountain or anything like that. The reason why Ramiel's balst doesn't cause massive shockwaves is because it isn't explosive. It acts more like a Mana Beam or a Mega Smasher, not a CPC or a Spiral Ray, designed to vaporise and punch through stuff.

In any case, you can't actually think such a powerful beam won't even get through one layer of the barrier. And when it does, it will simply keep punching through, as Ramiel can sustain his beam for incredibly long periods of time.

[RedZillaKing]

I was always under the impression that Gigantic was so powerful that Neo ZX Tole wasn't even a challenge. I mean, it looked like that's what the creators were trying to convey at the time. Who knew that they were actually showing us that Gigantic was an inactive, slow moving weakling who was lucky that NZXT was running out of time?

I feel educated.

[Primevalgodzilla V2]

.....I said Guyver could defeat Neo ZX-tole without the giga smasher. But he would need it to actually kill him

[GojiFan]

Not talking about the beam, which is pretty dang fast. I'm talking about its lengthy and incredibly obvious charge time. The more mobile members like BF, Neo ZX-tole, Lucy and Forte can just sidestep. Empera can just knock him flat on his ass with a shockwave. Ramiel's the only who can't really do much because of his immobility and his own beam's charge time.

And only using his GS when his foe is significantly wounded or distracted won't exactlly go well if he ends up against Empera or Ramiel.

You misunderstood what I was saying. Sho and Makishima don't use their Smashers like Forte does the Psycho Glory. If they see an opportunity to use it during a fight (at any point), they will. And when I said they wait until the opponent can't stop them, I mean they back up a significant distance from enemies without ranged attacks or have put themselves in a position where they are charging their own beam or the like. The latter is exactly what happened to ZX-Tole. The Gigantic isn't going to use it when the target(s) can just go "ah-ha!" and side step it.

Vega's an extremely accurate sniper, as is Empera. And mostly everyone's still more than capable of avoiding the beam. And he still can only kill one of them at a time due to the Giga Smasher's lack of explosive power.

I don't think Ramiel has a range. Eva was many miles away and he was dead on.

Shooting a giant satellite is not exactly "sniping." And yes Ramiel has an effective targeting range. That is one of the key points that lets them kill Ramiel in the first place. Ramiel doesn't target anything outside of a certain range unless shot at first. As for Empera I will admit I only have a small amount of knowledge on him. But, keep in mind, that Empera being on the surface and Sho high up in the air (possibly near orbit) would be extremely far away at the scale they are fighting at.

And you completely missed the point I made earlier. The Smashers do not explode when they hit a target, but they most certainly do when fired down at the ground. If Sho flies up and fires the beam down at the surface, everyone there is dead. The Giga Smasher is capable of destroying large cities like Tokyo when used like that. There is no way anyone on IR's team would be able to escape, and there is little chance anyone could stop him.

I still find it strange that he decided to use it at the only moment of the fight where he and the Behemoth were evenly matched.

He had been "grappling" with the Behemoth on at least two prior occasions. Instead, he threw the Behemoth the first time and then punched him the second time.

Beast mode's AT field would weaken Zeruel's, but fact is we are referring to a beam that vaporised a massive portion of a mountain here. Is going to punch throug hlike the Positron Rifle (did to Ramiel) or Eva's eye beams did. And if they are not too far away, Ramiel's AT field would be neutralising Zeruel's. And Ramiel's AT field is far stronger than that of any non-Awakened Eva.

Errm, neither exactly gets up all close to their opponent. There is little chance that Ramiel would try neutralizing Zeruel's AT Field. I don't even think the Angels have displayed the ability to do such a thing.

And the fact remains that Beast mode nearly did get through, and was only stopped by Zeruel's long-overdue retaliation.

Which is all fine and dandy, given that Beast mode had significantly more strength than a regular Eva and still took a long ass time just to "nearly" get through.

Watch the vid again. The moment the beam connected with Zeruel's field, it shattered and gave way instantly, shattering (understandably hard to see with the massive fireball and all). Why else would the field instantly disappear and Zeruel be thrown back hundreds of metres? Zeruel had previously shown great skill and sustainability with his AT field.

The field disappears because Zeruel gets pushed off the screen from the Eva's beam. If the AT Field shatters as you said, then why is there zero damage to Zeruel what-so-ever in the next shot we get of it, even though the beam clearly is capable of harming him?

Yep, first it merely slits him open like a loaf of bread. Then a massive fireball bursts from the ground. Next, we see Zeruel looking little more than a pile of mangled flesh on the floor, and utterly incapacitated. Eva's beam is strong, and caused massive terrain damage, but at no point did it devastate a mountain or anything like that. The reason why Ramiel's balst doesn't cause massive shockwaves is because it isn't explosive. It acts more like a Mana Beam or a Mega Smasher, not a CPC or a Spiral Ray, designed to vaporise and punch through stuff.

"absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence."

There was no mountain for him to shoot at. There was Zeruel, who we know has a very strong AT Field and that a point blank N2 Mine exploding against the S2 Engine's covering failed to even scratch him.

In any case, you can't actually think such a powerful beam won't even get through one layer of the barrier. And when it does, it will simply keep punching through, as Ramiel can sustain his beam for incredibly long periods of time.

Maybe it will, maybe it won't. I would put more money on Zeruel killing Ramiel before Ramiel killing Zeruel.

.....I said Guyver could defeat Neo ZX-tole without the giga smasher. But he would need it to actually kill him

He has his high frequency blades that are more than capable of lopping off ZX-Tole's and just about anyone else's limbs. Said blades are mentioned in the DVD packet.

[Primevalgodzilla V2]

You misunderstood what I was saying. Sho and Makishima don't use their Smashers like Forte does the Psycho Glory. If they see an opportunity to use it during a fight (at any point), they will. And when I said they wait until the opponent can't stop them, I mean they back up a significant distance from enemies without ranged attacks or have put themselves in a position where they are charging their own beam or the like. The latter is exactly what happened to ZX-Tole. The Gigantic isn't going to use it when the target(s) can just go "ah-ha!" and side step it.

Considering the charge time the Giga Smasher requires its going to be incredibly hard to find that 'moment'. Its not as simple to use as the Mega Smasher. So its either he pulls it and the opponent recovers and dodges/counterattacks or he has to defeat the opponent first.

And I understood what you were saying. Its just that I doubt Empera and Ramiel will give him such an opportunity.

Shooting a giant satellite is not exactly "sniping." And yes Ramiel has an effective targeting range. That is one of the key points that lets them kill Ramiel in the first place. Ramiel doesn't target anything outside of a certain range unless shot at first. As for Empera I will admit I only have a small amount of knowledge on him. But, keep in mind, that Empera being on the surface and Sho high up in the air (possibly near orbit) would be extremely far away at the scale they are fighting at.

Empera sniped a plane that was flying around Tokyo from the Sun, and before that parried the beam that they were trying to kill the Imperiser with. The only problem is that he amy be cocky enough to let the Guyver shoot his beam at him. But Empera only gives ''leeway'' to Ultramen, so I doubt it.

And you completely missed the point I made earlier. The Smashers do not explode when they hit a target, but they most certainly do when fired down at the ground. If Sho flies up and fires the beam down at the surface, everyone there is dead. The Giga Smasher is capable of destroying large cities like Tokyo when used like that. There is no way anyone on IR's team would be able to escape, and there is little chance anyone could stop him.

I was under the assumption you meant he was firing it at ground level, which we were debating earlier. Even if he shoots from the sky, he's going to vaporise his whole team as well. I doubt Sho would do that. And he's going to be hard pressed to get the time to fly to orbit and prepare his beam.

And wasn't Neo ZX-tole the one firing from orbit?

He had been "grappling" with the Behemoth on at least two prior occasions. Instead, he threw the Behemoth the first time and then punched him the second time

Because the Behemoth had proved a non-threat before that, knocked around with ease. Only when the Behemoth started holding some semblance of own did he pull the Psycho Glory.

Errm, neither exactly gets up all close to their opponent. There is little chance that Ramiel would try neutralizing Zeruel's AT Field. I don't even think the Angels have displayed the ability to do such a thing.

Well, like I said, it depends how far away they start out when the battle begins. Because the two of them don't care for moving either. And AT fields are AT fields (even humans have AT fields in the Eva-verse, just they suck), they work the same way.

My point of mountain melter vs fists and bites still stands.

Which is all fine and dandy, given that Beast mode had significantly more strength than a regular Eva and still took a long ass time just to "nearly" get through.

Ramiel can keep up his beam for at least 30 seconds so time isn't a problem.

The field disappears because Zeruel gets pushed off the screen from the Eva's beam. If the AT Field shatters as you said, then why is there zero damage to Zeruel what-so-ever in the next shot we get of it, even though the beam clearly is capable of harming him?

No, the field shatters, allowing the Zeruel to be thrown back. You can see the shards flying as Zeruel is thrown back. I believe the AT field guarded Zeruel from most of the impact.

"absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence."

Basing off damage to landscape and terrain (mountains are harder and more durable than simple earth and terrain anyway).

There was no mountain for him to shoot at. There was Zeruel, who we know has a very strong AT Field and that a point blank N2 Mine exploding against the S2 Engine's covering failed to even scratch him.

Save for Eva's beams Zeruel hasn't faced anything of the power that Ramiel can pull.

Maybe it will, maybe it won't. I would put more money on Zeruel killing Ramiel before Ramiel killing Zeruel.

With Zeruel's reluctance to use his beams, and Ramiel's willingness to use his, and Ramiel only exposing his core when he's firing his laser, ita going to be incredibly hard for Zeruel to kill him. He's technically the superior of the two angels, and if it comes down to beam wars he would probably win, but that's not how normal Zeruel fights.

He has his high frequency blades that are more than capable of lopping off ZX-Tole's and just about anyone else's limbs. Said blades are mentioned in the DVD packet.

We don't know how strong those blades are.

EDIT: Since voting is on, Inferno Rodan. But very barely.

[RedZillaKing]

Nobody on IR's team could handle Guyver Gigantic. And fer chrissakes, Lucy, get some friggin' clothes on.

Stuckey

[GojiFan]

Stuckey's team

[SpanishBulldog63]

Stuckey

[Flygon King]

Inferno Rodan, if only barely.

[Inferno Rodan]

Yeah... not worth it to go through and respond to stuff at this point. Dragon's Dogma > this, anyway.

Inferno Rodan