KKT: Stuck Nasty vs IR

[Primevalgodzilla V2]

@Stuckey: Empera very well capable of teamwork. He's just also well capble of backstabbing everyone once they have served their purpose. So yeah, Empera can very much work well with everyone.

Zeruel and Ramiel can just be stationary gun turrets. Although the cross beam is kinda a non-factor because Zeruel never uses it in combat.

Of course, your team's vitory is largely based on the choice of 1v1s. AD can easily defeat Forte or Lucy but he's going to fall against Empera, BF, Ramiel of ZX-tole. Guyver Gigantic is powerful and all, but he can't actually hurt Empera. Forte's Psycho Glory's going to slaughter everyone but AD and Zeruel (AT field). Empera can tank literally everyone on your side save for Zeruel (and only if he uses the Cross Beam). That makes choosing a solid victor here kinda difficult, although I'm leaning towards IR, since he wins more of the possible combinations.

EDIT:

BF stomped LZ's ass in two encounters before LZ's Organoid System kicked in and gave LZ the advantage. Not to mention BF was being hindered by Vega operating at less than 50% capacity by the time the final battle against LZ came around.

I was under the impression that this was LZ from the end of the series.

Nevermind, more combinations.

Guyver Gigantic

vs Neo ZX-tole: We have seen this before. That being said I doubt Guyver's ability to actually kill his foe unless he pulls the Giga-Smasher. Still, Guyver FTW.

vs Berserk Fury: This will come down to melee. There, Guyver stomps.

vs Forte: This will come down melee unless Guyver pulls the giga Smasher. Eventually, it will come down to a Psycho Glory. Forte FTW.

vs Lucy: This will be interesting. Can Guyver hit Lucy, considering how inactive he is? Piercing armor is kinda irrelevant but I'm not sure just how effective phasing and slicing will be on a Guyver. Abstain.

vs Empera: Punches and kicks aren't going to more than annoy Empera In any case, Empera can jsut stop him from coming close with a kinetic pulsewave (the thing he used on Ryu's Hikari at first) or even the normal shockwave. Not sure how effectively Empera can hurt GG due to his barrier. Again, he could destroy empera with the Giga Smasher but he riscks destroying all his teammates who are in combat below. Doubt Sho would do that. Leaning towards Empera.

I think its worth noting that being evil and all I doubt ZX-tole has any qualms about vaporising his allies, unlike GG. So if he fires the Blaster Tempest amidst the chaos while the Guyver cannot parry it, it results in everyone dying and a tie.

vs Ramiel: Now that he is armed with an AT field melee is pretty useless. While he's punching through it Ramiel can just blast him away with a charged beam. But with his barrier, GG can block the beam. Abstain.

Ex Gomora

vs Neo ZX-tole: Agility and better use of his atatcks will allow the Zoanoid to have an advantage over the land-bound, melee-using EX Gomora. I don;t think even the Hyper Oscillatory Ray can hurt ZX-tole if he sets up his barrier, and he';s shown to have pretty fast reflexes with it. So ZX-tole FTW.

vs Berserk Fury: Really, really close. Closeup, EX Gomora's going to have an advantage due to his tail and monstrous strength, but BF has more skill, it would appear, and can learn his foe;s predictable attack patterns. Ranged, they both have the potential to fry each other but BF seems more inclined to use his beams and has a barrier. Abstain.

vs Forte: Psycho Glory will end it while they are grappling. I think he can dodge the HOR. Forte FTW.

vs Lucy. If Lucy decides to phase to his insides, she wins. I'm fairly sure EX Gomora won;t be able to get close to her with all those vectors. Beams's kinda a non-factor because of the charge time, Gomora's reluctance, and the fact Lucy can just spin him the other way while he's doing all that grand beam-posing. Lucy FTW.

vs Empera: Empera's inclination to use ranged atatcks will give him the win here. Gomora won;t be able to get close with the multilude of shockwaves. Once Empera realises shockwaves won;t cut it he will pull the dark beam. i don;t think the tail spear will even scratch Empera I think the Hyper Osciallatory ray is capable of wounding Empera, but will not flat out kill him unless he puts it on for 3 minutes. Its going to be a boring battle of both sides trying to deal significant harm to each other but I think Empera can outlast EX Gomora here.

vs Ramiel: Melee is again useless (becoming a trend huh), so Ramiel wins by beam spamming. Ramiel FTW.

Zeruel

vs Neo ZX-tole: Very, very close. Zeruel's blades will massively damage Neo ZX-tole, but Neo ZX-tole could well tear through the AT field and deliver massive damage as well. Due to his agility, I'm leaning towards Neo Zx-tole here, but this could also go to Zeruel.

vs Berserk Fury: The CPC is a very powerful weapon, but considerinf how insanely tough Zeruel is, eh will survive. On the other hand he can just reduce BF to salami. Zeruel FTW.

vs Forte: Unfortunately for Forte Zeruel has shown to be well capable of dealing with agile foes and his AT field will prevent Forte from using Psycho Glory effectively. He will be torn apart eventually.

vs Lucy: The vectors should be able to phase right through the AT field and Zeruel's armor, but if Lucy doesn;t hit the core (unlikely she will know its his weakness- its not like Ramiel can talk to her or anything) her efforts are as good as useless. Zeruel will win eventually.

vs Empera: The arm blades won't do much to Empera, but neither will Empera's shockwaves deal much damage to the AT field. The Dark Beam could well deal massive damage, even flat out kill Zeruel if it goes through the AT field 9not sure if it can). but Zeruel's own beam is even more powerful and could massive damage Empera in a single shot. That being said, he almost never uses it. Leaning towards Zeruel.

vs Ramiel: What Stuckey said. Zeruel will win in a tough fight.

Bio-Volcano

vs Neo ZX-tole: This is going to go down to melee, where the Zoanoid wins again. Neo-ZX-tole FTW.

vs Berserk Fuhrer: Very close fight. Berserk Fuhrer seems more skilled, and even without his armor proved to be a serious force to be rockoned with. With his omni-dimensional barrier he should win the CPC war.

vs Forte: Psycho glory to the pilots' skull. Forte FTW.

vs Lucy: See vs Liger Zero

vs Empera: See vs Liger Zero.

vs Ramiel: The Bio-CPC could well go through the AT field and deal significant damage to Ramiel. Then Ramiel goes crazy and delivers the Mountain smashing CPC of his own. Ramiel wins, but not by much.

[GojiFan]

Yeah, a crazed Guyver unit mindlessly hurling itself at Lucy is really gonna work.

You must have a different version of "crazed and mindlessly hurling itself" because what the Guyver did was anything but that.

~19:00
http://www.hulu.com/watch/136657/guyver ... c-enzyme-2

And you better hope Lucy doesn't go for the Guyver's brain, because once it is in self-defense mode it does not care about friend or foe... aka the Gigantic will kill everyone with its Mega Smasher.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6FE18G_k3c

Yes he is.

Yeah, I already watched that to brush up on Forte. All the video has is him jumping around in one fight, and he doesn't dodge jack crap. Jumping around in a fight =/= being able to avoid beams and other ranged weapons. Forte actually stood there and took every sonic blast shot at him.

Not really.

Good rebuttal.

It pushed him back a few inches. That's nothing compared to sending something flying back many body lengths. Shortly afterward, Forte threw a quick punch to the Behemoth that was exactly like what Gigantic did to ZX-Tole: cratered his chest and knocked him back slightly.

And pretty visuals for effect are not valid points of debate. The "force swirl" isn't any different from speed lines. Just there for effect.

It was quite a bit more than "a few inches." And like I said earlier, a single punch made ZX-Tole flee to use the Final Tempest. Tell me IR, if the punch wasn't all that impressive then how did just one hit make ZX-Tole run scared to orbit in a last ditch attempt to kill him?

Ah, I knew you were gonna try to pull this. Congrats on being predictable.

I'm not even going to quote the rest because it is irrelevant. Everything I said was, *gasp*, in the anime. Sho created the Guyver Gigantic to combat Archanfel after he defeated both Guyver I and III in overwhelming fashion. Or maybe the whole "I need power" scene with flashes of Archanfel over and over wasn't a clue in episode 25:
~13:25
http://www.hulu.com/watch/136905/guyver ... s-p1-so-i0

Define "weakest." In terms of physical strength and durability? You're damn right Lucy is the weakest. But that's not where her strength lies. Her strength lies in the fact that she has super-fast, invisible weapons that can deal immense damage in several ways, and few opponents have any means of countering them. Shields are mostly irrelevant to begin with, since they can't see the vectors and don't know to block in the first place. Even if a shield is put up, the vectors can simply pass through it and strike anyway. Extremely heavy armor is only temporary protection, since Lucy'll eventually just decide to bypass it and attack her opponent internally. She's also fast and agile enough to somewhat mitigate her relative physical frailty.

First, there is zero evidence that she can phase her vectors through an energy field. Second, as I proved last time we had this argument, you overrate Lucy's ability to dodge things by a ridiculous amount. The only thing she ever dodged was other vectors, which do not move nearly as fast as any beam weapon in this match. She only just barely dodged those as well.

Zeruel and Ramiel can just be stationary gun turrets. Although the cross beam is kinda a non-factor because Zeruel never uses it in combat.

Umm, are you forgetting the infamous scene where he blows off Eva-01's arm? Or again when he tries blasting the awakened Unit-01 in the face?

[Primevalgodzilla V2]

That was evolved Zeruel. Not once did normal Zeruel use his beam against Eva 00 or 02

[Inferno Rodan]

You must have a different version of "crazed and mindlessly hurling itself" because what the Guyver did was anything but that.

~19:00
http://www.hulu.com/watch/136657/guyver ... c-enzyme-2

And you better hope Lucy doesn't go for the Guyver's brain, because once it is in self-defense mode it does not care about friend or foe... aka the Gigantic will kill everyone with its Mega Smasher.

Lolz, guess I was thinking of when Enzyme ripped out his Control Metal. Nvm then.

Yeah, I already watched that to brush up on Forte. All the video has is him jumping around in one fight, and he doesn't dodge jack crap. Jumping around in a fight =/= being able to avoid beams and other ranged weapons.

I never said he would be actively trying to avoid anything. But the fact that he can be so mobile AND has heavy armor on top of that means there's little any of Stuckey's team can do to stop him from getting close.

Forte actually stood there and took every sonic blast shot at him.

...Well duh. Why waste energy trying to avoid something you're immune to in the first place?

Good rebuttal.

Well that's really all that needed to be said.

It was quite a bit more than "a few inches."

No, it really wasn't. Most of the distance between them was from ZX-Tole "staggering" back after the punch connected, not from the force of the blow itself.

And like I said earlier, a single punch made ZX-Tole flee to use the Final Tempest. Tell me IR, if the punch wasn't all that impressive then how did just one hit make ZX-Tole run scared to orbit in a last ditch attempt to kill him?

I never said the punch wasn't impressive, dude. It IS impressive. It's just nothing that Forte can't take, and it's certainly nothing he can't dish out severalfold. It's also funny because Lucy can throw a punch just as hard as Forte, if not harder, with her vectors when she wants.

Also, it wasn't really an act of desperation on ZX-Tole's part. He knew he was gonna die soon anyway thanks to his rushed optimization, so he wanted, and I quote, to "go out with a bang." Was pretty much intended as a big middle finger to Guyver, Aptom, and Chronos.

I'm not even going to quote the rest because it is irrelevant. Everything I said was, *gasp*, in the anime. Sho created the Guyver Gigantic to combat Archanfel after he defeated both Guyver I and III in overwhelming fashion. Or maybe the whole "I need power" scene with flashes of Archanfel over and over wasn't a clue in episode 25:
~13:25
http://www.hulu.com/watch/136905/guyver ... s-p1-so-i0

...K? The fact of the matter is Guyver Gigantic hardly does anything in battle. That he "didn't need to exert any real combat skills" is irrelevant. We can only really go by what he was was shown doing on-screen. And he hardly did anything.

First, there is zero evidence that she can phase her vectors through an energy field.

Whoa whoa whoa. Back up. You're one of the loudest proponents of Lucy being unable to block energy weapons. That means you think energy passes through them with no effect. Thus, you should think that they would pass through energy with no effect. You can't have it both ways.

And quite frankly, if they can phase through solid matter, there's no reason to believe they couldn't do the same with energy.

Second, as I proved last time we had this argument, you overrate Lucy's ability to dodge things by a ridiculous amount. The only thing she ever dodged was other vectors, which do not move nearly as fast as any beam weapon in this match. She only just barely dodged those as well.

And as YOU so conveniently ignored last time, while the vectors may be slower than a beam once it's been fired, I think it goes without saying that dodging an INVISIBLE and STILL FAST attack proves she's MORE than capable of getting out of the way of something that has an obvious and lengthy charge time.

[RedZillaKing]

But energy isn't solid matter... it's something entirely different.

That being said, I'm certain that her vectors could block an energy attack that was weaker than an anti tank weapon. I feel like almost everything she'll be hit with will be stronger than that in this crowd...

[Stuckey]

BF stomped LZ's ass in two encounters before LZ's Organoid System kicked in and gave LZ the advantage. Not to mention BF was being hindered by Vega operating at less than 50% capacity by the time the final battle against LZ came around.

Just re-watched the final two episodes of Zoids NCZ. When the BF didn't have his armor on he beat the Jaeger, but the fighting style of the BF is so completely different when he doesn't have his armor on that you told me that you've thought about adding an additional stat to the Archives for it. So I don't think that battle counts too much. Second battle is when the Liger had the Panzer armor on and is about as mobile as a snail so obviously he wasn't going to be hitting the BF.
Now onto Vega only operating at about 50% of his capacity. At the beginning of the final episode the only thing he had wrong with him was a slight lactic acid buildup but the BF had a combat motivation exceeding 120%. After firing his TCPC Vega dropped to 50% of his capacity, leading me to believe that he wouldn't be able to fire many off without severe consequences for himself. It should be noted that Bit had been fighting in just as many battles as Vega and had wrecked all but the Zero armor, so he was fatigued as well. In fact, he was shown panting heavily during the whole final battle.
Once the Liger it's Zero armor back on he completely trashed the BF. The BF didn't even get in a single hit, not even with it's combat motivation over 200%. It was literally a one-sided fight.

Once the Liger takes out the Fuhrer, the Gigantic takes out Neo ZX-Tole, and Lucy gets taken down by whomever, there isn't going to be any hope for IR's team. And don't try to say that maybe the BF won't go for the Liger. The BF rejected Vega's controls just to turn around to fight the Liger again.

Ah, I almost forgot that the only things that have a chance at killing Zeruel are the Triple Charged Particle Cannons and Ramiel's particle cannon. Zeruel took an N2 mine to the stomach, without his AT Field, and it didn't even scratch him. Ramiel is going to have to do a whole lot of geometric shifting to be get a beam strong enough to kill him, which happens to take a rather long amount of time.

[Primevalgodzilla V2]

Well, there's still Forte, who can defeat the majority of your team thanks to Psycho Glory.

As for Zeruel, while it takes a long time for Ramiel to charge his mountain buster, its not like Zeruel's particularly responsive, or hell, makes an attempt to dodge anything. He just tries to flatten/block stuff with his AT field half the time. So when/if the mountain buster comes he won't be able, or rather just plain won't make any attempt to stop it except to concentrate his AT field.

In any case, thanks to their fighting style, EX Gomora, Armored Darkness and Guyver Gigantic (and probably Liger Zero) are going to get in close. This won't end well for the former two, who will be mowed down by Ramiel, Empera and Berserk Fury. In contrast on the other side, only Bio-Volcano (Zeruel if you count his AT field play) likes to use ranged combat, alowing, say, Forte to move in. Zeruel isn't even a particularly offensive fighter. He just stood there and extended his AT field for the majority of the fight.

Guyver Gigantic may be the technical strongest fighter in this match, but his fists aren't going to cut it with Empera, Ramiel or even Neo-ZX-tole. May batter them but defitniely can't kill them, especially Empera. Unless everyone from IR's side takes to space, the Giga Smasher has a high chance of killing everyone else including himself when he fires it, hence making it more or less a non-factor. Zeruel could murder en masse if he spammed his eye beams- unfortunately, he's one of the least active fighters here. His arm blades are deadly but rarely used and I think Empera and ZX-tole could tank 'em, considering the former has blocked blades just as impressive with his bare hand.

[Inferno Rodan]

Once the Liger it's Zero armor back on he completely trashed the BF. The BF didn't even get in a single hit, not even with it's combat motivation over 200%. It was literally a one-sided fight.

BF's movements were downright sluggish by the time he started fighting LZ. He literally couldn't even keep up with LZ, and the shots from his beam cannon outright missed LZ even though Vega displayed freakishly precise aim prior to that. There's no way you can say BF wasn't severely hindered in that fight.

And btw, BF did get a hit in on LZ. Toward the very end. He countered LZ's lunge with a tail whip that sent LZ flying. His Organoid System had begun to adapt and counter LZ, despite his pilot being completely unconscious at that point. It took LZ two prior ass-whoopings for its Organoid System to effectively counter BF. BF's Organoid System adapted to being overwhelmed and began countering what was countering him within just a few minutes. His System is far superior.

Needless to say, if both had been fresh when they started fighting, as they would be here, LZ would hardly even be a challange for BF.

[Stuckey]

Why would the Gigantic kill himself when firing the Giga Smasher?

BF did get a hit in on LZ.

You're right, I missed that the first time around. Doesn't change the fact that even when the BF's combat motivation was 200% and it's speed increased again, probably due to it's Organoid system, that the Liger still trashed it.
And as this battle uses the Liger and BF from the end of Zoids the Liger is going to have all the experience fighting the BF that he had when he trashed it.

It took LZ two prior ass-whoopings for its Organoid System to effectively counter BF.

Again, the first time was against an armor-less Fuhrer that fights completely different than an armored Fuhrer, and the second time was when the Liger couldn't even move and ended up taking a single hit, possibly two.

[Primevalgodzilla V2]

Being at the ground zero from the explosion wrought by his own beam.

[GojiFan]

I never said he would be actively trying to avoid anything. But the fact that he can be so mobile AND has heavy armor on top of that means there's little any of Stuckey's team can do to stop him from getting close.

There is literally zero ranged weapons in Betterman close to the power that several of the members of Stuckey's team have. Implying that Forte could tank a beam from Zeruel or Bio-Volcano is just foolish. A beam from one of those two would at the least severely injure him, if not kill him.

No, it really wasn't. Most of the distance between them was from ZX-Tole "staggering" back after the punch connected, not from the force of the blow itself.

The anime does a typical freeze frame when the punch lands, and then afterward ZX-Tole flies backward. Unless you are trying to tell me ZX-Tole and the Gigantic just stood there holding their pose for 2 or so seconds before deciding to fight again.

Also, it wasn't really an act of desperation on ZX-Tole's part. He knew he was gonna die soon anyway thanks to his rushed optimization, so he wanted, and I quote, to "go out with a bang." Was pretty much intended as a big middle finger to Guyver, Aptom, and Chronos.

Except that isn't how it goes down. ZX-Tole screams in pain when he gets punched, and then is seen holding his mid-section and struggling with his speech.

It wasn't like he just went "oh darn, that was a good punch. Well, time to fly to space." One punch from the Gigantic hurt him so badly that ZX-Tole knew instantly he could not win.

...K? The fact of the matter is Guyver Gigantic hardly does anything in battle. That he "didn't need to exert any real combat skills" is irrelevant. We can only really go by what he was was shown doing on-screen. And he hardly did anything.

He hardly did anything because the fight only lasted all of 5 seconds , IR. I can't believe how you can't seem to grasp that concept. According to Stuckey, it sounds like Sho is in control of the Gigantic. We know how Sho fights, and he is not an inactive fighter.

Whoa whoa whoa. Back up. You're one of the loudest proponents of Lucy being unable to block energy weapons. That means you think energy passes through them with no effect. Thus, you should think that they would pass through energy with no effect. You can't have it both ways.

And quite frankly, if they can phase through solid matter, there's no reason to believe they couldn't do the same with energy.

Do you know why I said she can't block them IR? Because energy weapons generally are constant streams instead of a small, solid projectile. Because energy weapons "flow" around physical barriers. Because a lot of energy weapons either explode when they hit something, or have pretty insane amounts of kinetic energy behind them as well. She can put her vectors up and they will hit them first, but they will kill her regardless because of the nature of them being energy and how frail she is.

And no it doesn't. Energy may be just another "form" of matter, but it behaves extremely differently than solid matter does.

And as YOU so conveniently ignored last time, while the vectors may be slower than a beam once it's been fired, I think it goes without saying that dodging an INVISIBLE and STILL FAST attack proves she's MORE than capable of getting out of the way of something that has an obvious and lengthy charge time.

Regular humans were dodging the vectors at times. And it is made quite clear through out the series that Dicloni don't really have any sort of issues with seeing each others vectors, as Mariko easily "caught" Lucy's vectors.

And I said this before IR. Lucy doesn't know what is going on when something charges a beam. The viewer of those monsters/zoids/whatever do, and the people within those universes do as well, but Lucy doesn't. She has zero experience with such weapons, and zero idea what to do when fired at her. She more than likely will try blocking them like she does with bullets, which as I explained before would be the death of her.

Well, there's still Forte, who can defeat the majority of your team thanks to Psycho Glory.

Can he? Yes. Will he? More than likely no.

As for Zeruel, while it takes a long time for Ramiel to charge his mountain buster, its not like Zeruel's particularly responsive, or hell, makes an attempt to dodge anything. He just tries to flatten/block stuff with his AT field half the time. So when/if the mountain buster comes he won't be able, or rather just plain won't make any attempt to stop it except to concentrate his AT field.

Which might be a problem if it didn't take two Eva's just to get through his AT Field, and if his body wasn't durable enough to take a point blank N2 mine without the smallest bit of damage.

In any case, thanks to their fighting style, EX Gomora, Armored Darkness and Guyver Gigantic (and probably Liger Zero) are going to get in close. This won't end well for the former two, who will be mowed down by Ramiel, Empera and Berserk Fury. In contrast on the other side, only Bio-Volcano (Zeruel if you count his AT field play) likes to use ranged combat, alowing, say, Forte to move in. Zeruel isn't even a particularly offensive fighter. He just stood there and extended his AT field for the majority of the fight.

First, the Gigantic doesn't "charge" anything. The closest thing he did to charging someone was when he flew up in the air to see ZX-Tole face-to-face. He more than likely will end up sheilding his teammates from anything shot at them to start the match. EX Gomora and AD are also more than capable of closing the distance to the BF if he decides to charge the CPC. But that is assuming he does, since he never used his CPC to start a fight except against the Genosaurers.

Guyver Gigantic may be the technical strongest fighter in this match, but his fists aren't going to cut it with Empera, Ramiel or even Neo-ZX-tole. May batter them but defitniely can't kill them, especially Empera. Unless everyone from IR's side takes to space, the Giga Smasher has a high chance of killing everyone else including himself when he fires it, hence making it more or less a non-factor. Zeruel could murder en masse if he spammed his eye beams- unfortunately, he's one of the least active fighters here. His arm blades are deadly but rarely used and I think Empera and ZX-tole could tank 'em, considering the former has blocked blades just as impressive with his bare hand.

Please tell me you are joking with the bold. The Gigantic landed a single punch on ZX-Tole that made him scream in pain and clutch his midsection. ZX-Tole is utterly screwed if he fights the Gigantic first, which he more than likely will due to his natural hate for the guyvers. And no, he doesn't need to fire it from space and he won't die if he doesn't. He is more than capable of firing it from an even level as the other fighters and wipe out everything that gets caught in it.

Zeruel's arm blades more than likely can damage anything on the other team. Keep in mind, they easily chopped through Eva-02. The Evas, even without AT Fields, are pretty damn hard to damage.

BF's movements were downright sluggish by the time he started fighting LZ. He literally couldn't even keep up with LZ, and the shots from his beam cannon outright missed LZ even though Vega displayed freakishly precise aim prior to that. There's no way you can say BF wasn't severely hindered in that fight.

They were sluggish because the BF couldn't keep up with the Liger. Yes Vega was tired, but Bit was just as tired himself as Stuckey said.

It took LZ two prior ass-whoopings for its Organoid System to effectively counter BF. BF's Organoid System adapted to being overwhelmed and began countering what was countering him within just a few minutes. His System is far superior.

Except Vega had prior experience dealing with Bit and knew how to adjust his strategy to deal with him, where as Bit did not. Even in the first fight, you can see that Bit had already begun to adapt the Liger to Vega and the BF, even though Vega had the advantage of knowing the pilot of the Liger and how he fought. This does not include any possible information the Back Draft gave Vega on Bit and the Liger Zero before they ever even met, which would further put the advantage in Vega's favor.

[Stuckey]

Let's not forget that the Gigantic has really good regeneration.

[Primevalgodzilla V2]

Can he? Yes. Will he? More than likely no.

Well, whoever he fights is pretty screwed, save for Zeruel or AD. He's extremely tough in his own right.

Which might be a problem if it didn't take two Eva's just to get through his AT Field, and if his body wasn't durable enough to take a point blank N2 mine without the smallest bit of damage.

The Evas were using pure melee, not a beam powerful enough to melt much of a mountain. Beast mode smashed through 6 or 7 layers by jumping into the AT field alone. Its not like Awakened Eva's blasts were much stronger than Ramiel's supercharged particle beam anyway, based on the level of environmental devastation.

First, the Gigantic doesn't "charge" anything. The closest thing he did to charging someone was when he flew up in the air to see ZX-Tole face-to-face.

Well, yeah. But that's the only case of him actually properly engaging in combat, so its the best measure of his fighting style.

EX Gomora and AD are also more than capable of closing the distance to the BF if he decides to charge the CPC.

Not really. They are too slow. Especially AD. Guy's gonna take an eternity to march across to the other side. EX Gomora may stand a chance of getting close but he will be massively injured by either Ramiel's or BF's firepower, and will be easy pickings for whoever he engages. Assuming Empera doesn't knock them both flat on their asses with a shockwave before they get close.

But that is assuming he does, since he never used his CPC to start a fight except against the Genosaurers.

Well, if it comes down to melee that's going to be quite interesting. Don't see anyone getting close to Ramiel, Empera or Zeruel though. Still, the most devastating attacks are the ranged ones and IR's team simply seems more willing to use it.

Please tell me you are joking with the bold. The Gigantic landed a single punch on ZX-Tole that made him scream in pain and clutch his midsection. ZX-Tole is utterly screwed if he fights the Gigantic first, which he more than likely will due to his natural hate for the guyvers.

There is a huge difference between battering and killing. I simply don't see Guyver getting rid of IR's tougher members with his bare hands alone. Neo ZX-tole may have been hurt but I seriosuly doubt Guyver would have been able to kill him without the Giga Smasher.

And no, he doesn't need to fire it from space and he won't die if he doesn't. He is more than capable of firing it from an even level as the other fighters and wipe out everything that gets caught in it.

Well duh. I'm not saying he can't fire a beam from the ground. But it happened that Neo ZX-tole had the convenience of being in space when he was hsot, preventing Guyver from suffering the impact of his own blast.

Zeruel's arm blades more than likely can damage anything on the other team. Keep in mind, they easily chopped through Eva-02. The Evas, even without AT Fields, are pretty damn hard to damage.

Zamshaa split a 7 km comet into half in one slash. Hikari, in his basal form (he battled Empera in Aabu Armor Mode, which is much stronger) basically split clean in half, no fuss, a monster which had previously withstoof Mebium Beams, Specium Missiles and the Gatling Detonator without so much as a scratch. Empera blocked both blades with his bare hand.

But those blades would tear up everyone else pretty bad though.

[GojiFan]

Well, whoever he fights is pretty screwed, save for Zeruel or AD. He's extremely tough in his own right.

Which implies he would either:

A) Make it through what would effectively become a no man's land as beams from both sides get used.
or
B) Uses it before he himself gets killed.

The psychoglory is all well and good, but Forte never used it until his enemy was basically finished. He never used it early in a fight.

The Evas were using pure melee, not a beam powerful enough to melt much of a mountain. Beast mode smashed through 6 or 7 layers by jumping into the AT field alone. Its not like Awakened Eva's blasts were much stronger than Ramiel's supercharged particle beam anyway, based on the level of environmental devastation.

Except both were actively trying to neutralize Zeruel's AT Field as well. As I have said before, using one AT Field to penetrate another makes a world of difference in trying to harm the Angel/Eva.

Well, yeah. But that's the only case of him actually properly engaging in combat, so its the best measure of his fighting style.

Not really. You can just as easily view it as him taking the battle away from his vulnerable friends.

There is a huge difference between battering and killing. I simply don't see Guyver getting rid of IR's tougher members with his bare hands alone. Neo ZX-tole may have been hurt but I seriosuly doubt Guyver would have been able to kill him without the Giga Smasher.

You are seriously wrong. As I said before, the Gigantic was created by Sho to defeat Archenfal. While Neo ZX-Tole is very powerful, he is nothing compared to Archenfal. If ZX-Tole decided to stand around and fight the Gigantic face-to-face he still would have gotten thrashed.

Well duh. I'm not saying he can't fire a beam from the ground. But it happened that Neo ZX-tole had the convenience of being in space when he was hsot, preventing Guyver from suffering the impact of his own blast.

Someone needs to watch the Guyver series. The mega smasher doesn't explode when it hits a target. It just keeps going. Plenty of times it had been used at an even level to the opponent without any harm what-so-ever to the Guyver. Instead, it vaporizes the target and leaves huge and deep trenches in the dirt in the direction it was fired in for quite a distance. Only if the Gigantic fired it straight down at the ground would it have to worry about any sort of damage to itself.

[Primevalgodzilla V2]

Which implies he would either:

A) Make it through what would effectively become a no man's land as beams from both sides get used.

The only party that will be using beams on IR's side is Bio Volcano. Clearly Ramiel, Berserk Fury and Empera won't shoot their ally, and Forte is more than capable of dealing with BV's firepower. Guyver doesn't start with a beam, Liger Zero is pure melee, Zeruel is enormously passive, and EX Gomie and AD are nearly entirely melee users.

B) Uses it before he himself gets killed.

I'm pretty sure he can at least go toe to toe with everyone here 'cept for Zeruel and AD.

The psychoglory is all well and good, but Forte never used it until his enemy was basically finished. He never used it early in a fight.

I believe he was in an armlock with the behemoth when he used it (albeit he did beat up the Behemoth abit before that).

Except both were actively trying to neutralize Zeruel's AT Field as well. As I have said before, using one AT Field to penetrate another makes a world of difference in trying to harm the Angel/Eva.

Its still punches and bites vs mountain-melting beam.

Also, Eva Awakened's beams all but ripped apart an even stronger form of Zeruel, and frankly those don't seem much, if any, stronger than Ramiel's best shot.

Not really. You can just as easily view it as him taking the battle away from his vulnerable friends.

Its far from definiteive, but its still the only measure we got.

You are seriously wrong. As I said before, the Gigantic was created by Sho to defeat Archenfal. While Neo ZX-Tole is very powerful, he is nothing compared to Archenfal. If ZX-Tole decided to stand around and fight the Gigantic face-to-face he still would have gotten thrashed.

Whatever he was created to defeat, its not like he punched a hole into ZX-tole's armor or anything. If he had managed to do so, then yeah, maybe he can kill Neo ZX-tole (I'm not denying he can defeat him).

Someone needs to watch the Guyver series. The mega smasher doesn't explode when it hits a target. It just keeps going. Plenty of times it had been used at an even level to the opponent without any harm what-so-ever to the Guyver. Instead, it vaporizes the target and leaves huge and deep trenches in the dirt in the direction it was fired in for quite a distance. Only if the Gigantic fired it straight down at the ground would it have to worry about any sort of damage to itself.

Referring to Giga-smasher. While we don't actually see the big boosh due to random cutaways and such, there is an enormous circle in the clouds after GG defeats ZX-tole. If that wasn't caused by an explosion I don't know what did.

[Stuckey]

While we don't actually see the big boosh due to random cutaways and such, there is an enormous circle in the clouds after GG defeats ZX-tole. If that wasn't caused by an explosion I don't know what did.

It wasn't caused by an explosion. It was caused by the velocity of which the beam was traveling to disperse the clouds and such. Happens a lot in anime, DBZ is a pretty good example of this.
And the Gigantic has more than just his punches and Gigasmasher. He's also got the forehead beam and, apparently, his high frequency blades. Both of which are more than capable of taking out ZX-Tole. Not sure if he'd need to use them though, seeing as how he punched his way through a Zoalord's barrier and almost killed said Zoalord with punches in the manga. Yeah, yeah, I used a feat from the manga to explain his strength a little bit. Sue me.

[GojiFan]

^ Which really isn't that big of an issue since the anime was almost 100% accurate to the manga, and the creator, Yoshiki Takaya, was directly involved with the anime on numerous occasions. The whole idea that the Gigantic is an inactive fighter or wouldn't have thrashed ZX-Tole without the Giga Smasher is laughable. It is essentially a larger and far more powerful version of the original Guyver.

The only party that will be using beams on IR's side is Bio Volcano. Clearly Ramiel, Berserk Fury and Empera won't shoot their ally, and Forte is more than capable of dealing with BV's firepower. Guyver doesn't start with a beam, Liger Zero is pure melee, Zeruel is enormously passive, and EX Gomie and AD are nearly entirely melee users.

As I said before, the BF with Vega doesn't like to use it's CPC to start a fight. And considering that when Zeruel was presented with multiple enemies when he first arrived, and then used his beam to kill said enemies, it is not entirely out of the question he won't fire a beam sometime early in the match.

I'm pretty sure he can at least go toe to toe with everyone here 'cept for Zeruel and AD.

If you and IR keep underestimating how ridiculously powerful the Gigantic is then sure.... but that is the problem. You are both underestimating how ridiculously powerful the Gigantic is.

I believe he was in an armlock with the behemoth when he used it (albeit he did beat up the Behemoth abit before that).

Precisely. He had already been dominating the first Behemoth quite easily before he got a chance to use it. The time he used it on the second Behemoth was after it basically became paralyzed from the mushrooms (even though said mushrooms did not actually paralyze it).

Its still punches and bites vs mountain-melting beam.

Also, Eva Awakened's beams all but ripped apart an even stronger form of Zeruel, and frankly those don't seem much, if any, stronger than Ramiel's best shot.

*Sigh*

There is a reason that nothing short of the positron cannon and a few other rare examples were able to get through AT Fields without them being neutralized by the Eva first. They are very hard to get through. Not only was Eva 00 attempting to neutralize Zeruel's AT Field, but Rei was failing completely. Zeruel was actually starting to push the rocket back with its own AT Field, even with the attempts to neutralize it, when Unit 02 showed up and got through the rest of the field.

And you should go watch that scene again. Not only did Zeruel block the first beam, but the second beam created huge shockwaves after it hit the wall of the Geofront. The wall was quite possibly over a kilometer away given the size of the Geofront. The second beam was also powerful enough to not only rip through Zeruel's AT Field, but managed to physically harm it, which is something even a point blank N2 mine couldn't do.

Referring to Giga-smasher. While we don't actually see the big boosh due to random cutaways and such, there is an enormous circle in the clouds after GG defeats ZX-tole. If that wasn't caused by an explosion I don't know what did.

Please, go back and watch the scene, or the series in general. Both the Giga Smasher and the Mega Smasher do not create explosions when they hit anything. They completely vaporize what they hit. And in regards to the clouds, we see the beam still fully intact when it completely overpowers the Final Tempest. Next we see the beam fly off into space. There was no explosion what so ever.

[Primevalgodzilla V2]

^ Which really isn't that big of an issue since the anime was almost 100% accurate to the manga, and the creator, Yoshiki Takaya, was directly involved with the anime on numerous occasions.

Its still different material, and hence, his 'kill Zoalord with bare hands' feat doesn't count. And he has yet to use his high frequency blades and forehead beam in combat.

The whole idea that the Gigantic is an inactive fighter or wouldn't have thrashed ZX-Tole without the Giga Smasher is laughable. It is essentially a larger and far more powerful version of the original Guyver.

He is inactive based on what we see here. He is definitely larger and far more powerful, and can probably defeat Neo ZX-tole fairly easily, but I'm talking about killing here, for the umpteenth time. With his bare hands, I don't see how he's going to kill Neo ZX-tole, Empera (I'm sure he can knock those around , but kill?) or Ramiel (unless Sho's hiding an AT field in his pocket mere fists are useless).

If you and IR keep underestimating how ridiculously powerful the Gigantic is then sure.... but that is the problem. You are both underestimating how ridiculously powerful the Gigantic is.

Prob here is that he's only really got his (admittedly really strong, but nothing that extremely tanky people like Empera can't shrug off) fists here, and the Giga Smasher that almost everyone here can simply leap away, get behind Guyver or simply counterattack while Guyver starts obviously glowing like a Christmas tree.

Precisely. He had already been dominating the first Behemoth quite easily before he got a chance to use it. The time he used it on the second Behemoth was after it basically became paralyzed from the mushrooms (even though said mushrooms did not actually paralyze it).

Still, he had chosen to use it on the firts behemoth not on the multiple times the elephant was flat on its ass and squirming in pain but when they were both on even fighting ground (armlocking). Tells me something like that could happen here.

There is a reason that nothing short of the positron cannon and a few other rare examples were able to get through AT Fields without them being neutralized by the Eva first. They are very hard to get through. Not only was Eva 00 attempting to neutralize Zeruel's AT Field, but Rei was failing completely. Zeruel was actually starting to push the rocket back with its own AT Field, even with the attempts to neutralize it, when Unit 02 showed up and got through the rest of the field.

Its not like Unit 00 detonated the N2 mine onto the AT field. She was just pushing the field with the missile, which isn't particularly difficult for an average AT field to block. Beast mode was actually tearing through the field quite effectively until Zeruel sliced her arm and side off, and was actually almost through when Zeruel finally decided to retaliate.

And you should go watch that scene again. Not only did Zeruel block the first beam, but the second beam created huge shockwaves after it hit the wall of the Geofront. The wall was quite possibly over a kilometer away given the size of the Geofront. The second beam was also powerful enough to not only rip through Zeruel's AT Field, but managed to physically harm it, which is something even a point blank N2 mine couldn't do.

I actually just watched the scene yesterday. The first beam blasted apart some terrain and then all but obliterated Zeruel's AT field and sent him flying. The second first split him open, then all but decimated him in a massive explosion, nearly killing him. I'm inclined to think a beam that can vaporise the face of a mountain is going to be equally deadly to Zeruel.

Please, go back and watch the scene, or the series in general. Both the Giga Smasher and the Mega Smasher do not create explosions when they hit anything. They completely vaporize what they hit. And in regards to the clouds, we see the beam still fully intact when it completely overpowers the Final Tempest. Next we see the beam fly off into space. There was no explosion what so ever.

I stand corrected (the scene wasn't every clear with the cutaways and whatnot). I did know the Mega Smasher was more mana beam that spiral ray, but that scene with the Giga Smasher had seemd kinda ambiguous.

[Draglord]

Its still different material, and hence, his 'kill Zoalord with bare hands' feat doesn't count. And he has yet to use his high frequency blades and forehead beam in combat.

The Gigantic DID use its Power Head Beam in the anime. He used it on Citiciss (the bird Zoanoid that Purgstall sent to spy on the Neo ZX-Tole fight) and killed him (the manga shows him being blasted in half by the beam).

He is inactive based on what we see here. He is definitely larger and far more powerful, and can probably defeat Neo ZX-tole fairly easily, but I'm talking about killing here, for the umpteenth time. With his bare hands, I don't see how he's going to kill Neo ZX-tole, Empera (I'm sure he can knock those around , but kill?) or Ramiel (unless Sho's hiding an AT field in his pocket mere fists are useless).

The only reason why ZX-Tole even survived the punch is because of the way his armor is built to withstand gravity-based attacks like the Pressure Cannon and the Gigantic's Gravity Punch. Otherwise, ZX-Tole would've been skreeonk up by the Gigantic's Gravity Punch. Its gonna hurt the other members of IR's team more than it will on NZT.

ZX-Tole's VDF for reference: http://www.japan-legend.com/guyver_advo ... df-047.jpg

And an anatomy thingy of Neo ZX-Tole: http://www.japan-legend.com/guyver_advo ... df-054.jpg

I stand corrected (the scene wasn't every clear with the cutaways and whatnot). I did know the Mega Smasher was more mana beam that spiral ray, but that scene with the Giga Smasher had seemd kinda ambiguous.

The Mega/Giga Smasher are more like CPCs.

[GojiFan]

Its still different material, and hence, his 'kill Zoalord with bare hands' feat doesn't count. And he has yet to use his high frequency blades and forehead beam in combat.

I understand you guys don't want to use it (even though the anime is literally a near 100% adaptation of the manga's first 50 or so chapters). But I will address why it is important below (even though the info Draglord posted proves it anyway).

He is inactive based on what we see here. He is definitely larger and far more powerful, and can probably defeat Neo ZX-tole fairly easily, but I'm talking about killing here, for the umpteenth time. With his bare hands, I don't see how he's going to kill Neo ZX-tole, Empera (I'm sure he can knock those around , but kill?) or Ramiel (unless Sho's hiding an AT field in his pocket mere fists are useless).

You both need to stop saying he is inactive. As I have said several times, you both are claiming he "did nothing" even though the face-to-face fight didn't last long enough for him to do anything. It literally was over in seconds.

Now, this is why you both should take the manga into consideration. You don't even need to give him the other powers he demonstrated in the manga. He won't need them. Just look at his fighting style in the manga, and you will see it is ANYTHING BUT INACTIVE.

Prob here is that he's only really got his (admittedly really strong, but nothing that extremely tanky people like Empera can't shrug off) fists here, and the Giga Smasher that almost everyone here can simply leap away, get behind Guyver or simply counterattack while Guyver starts obviously glowing like a Christmas tree.

It isn't exactly easy to "leap" out of the way of the Giga Smasher. It travels pretty damn fast, and it is pretty damn wide. Also, you fail to realize that Sho tends not to use the mega smasher when the enemy can stop him from doing so (except in a few occasions where he gets surprised by an attack they have). Both Guyver units tend to use them when the enemy is distracted or where they are not in a position to stop it .

Also, if he were to fly up and shoot it down at the field... who exactly is going to stop him? Ramiel and ZX-Tole would be the prime examples, but he may very well be out of range of Ramiel and ZX-Tole would likely be dead.

Still, he had chosen to use it on the firts behemoth not on the multiple times the elephant was flat on its ass and squirming in pain but when they were both on even fighting ground (armlocking). Tells me something like that could happen here.

No, he chose to use it after the fight had basically already been decided. As I said before, there is no guarantee he will even last long enough to find himself in position to use it once.

Its not like Unit 00 detonated the N2 mine onto the AT field. She was just pushing the field with the missile, which isn't particularly difficult for an average AT field to block. Beast mode was actually tearing through the field quite effectively until Zeruel sliced her arm and side off, and was actually almost through when Zeruel finally decided to retaliate.

*Double sigh*

She not only was pushing it with the help of the missile's thrusters, but she was using her own AT Field to try neutralizing Zeruel's. As I have said several times, an AT Field that is being neutralized by another AT Field is much easier to penetrate than one that isn't. Zeruel's AT Field was strong enough to not only stop the missile and Rei, but was actually starting to push them back. And Beast Mode 02 was more than likely using its own AT field to help get through Zeruel's... which doesn't really matter, because it got whooped on before it ever did.

I actually just watched the scene yesterday. The first beam blasted apart some terrain and then all but obliterated Zeruel's AT field and sent him flying. The second first split him open, then all but decimated him in a massive explosion, nearly killing him. I'm inclined to think a beam that can vaporise the face of a mountain is going to be equally deadly to Zeruel.

You should watch it again.I'll even post a link of it for you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1Vu8-t_ ... re=related

The first beam did no such thing. The AT Field blocks it, yet the force still sends Zeruel flying back. You can see this in the next shot when the Eva shoots another beam and we see both Zeruel with no injuries (which means the first beam never got through the AT Field) and cutting through the AT Field. The beam also did not "decimate him." It causes a pretty nasty wound yes, but it did little more than just splitting his face mask-skull-thing in two and cutting through the protective plates over the S2 engine. Then you see the beam hit the geofront wall, which as I said looks to be well over 1 kilometer away, and create both a massive explosion and shockwave. Ramiel's "mountain melter" beam is certainly powerful, but it is not as powerful as the berserk Eva 01's beam.