The Sonic The Hedgehog thread

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Re: The Sonic The Hedgehog thread

Postby SomeknowmeasXeno » Wed Oct 26, 2016 4:57 pm

soulgodzilla wrote:
Godzilla165 wrote:Obviously the hedgehogs have been made out to be the strongest and fastest characters, and it's been that way for awhile now. Especially when it comes to Sonic.

I can understand if Sonic, Shadow and Silver are the strongest characters in the series. But what I rather not see is the Hedgehog race are the most fastest, strongest and most powerful mobian species in Mobius.

IT'S NOT MOBIUS, IT'S EARTH! EARTH! I'm sorry but I hate that confusion.
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Re: The Sonic The Hedgehog thread

Postby soulgodzilla » Wed Oct 26, 2016 5:01 pm

SomeknowmeasXeno wrote:
soulgodzilla wrote:
Godzilla165 wrote:Obviously the hedgehogs have been made out to be the strongest and fastest characters, and it's been that way for awhile now. Especially when it comes to Sonic.

I can understand if Sonic, Shadow and Silver are the strongest characters in the series. But what I rather not see is the Hedgehog race are the most fastest, strongest and most powerful mobian species in Mobius.

IT'S NOT MOBIUS, IT'S EARTH! EARTH! I'm sorry but I hate that confusion.

Okay, okay. Its earth. *gives Snickers*
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Re: The Sonic The Hedgehog thread

Postby SomeknowmeasXeno » Wed Oct 26, 2016 5:04 pm

Ivo-goji wrote:^Again, it only seems that way in like one game in the series, it's not true most of the time. Although Sonic himself is indeed very strong.

SomeknowmeasXeno wrote:
soulgodzilla wrote:So what you're saying is that Sonic, Shadow, Silver and Knuckles (and maybe Amy if possible) are the only characters that can gain access to their Super forms, yet Tails can also turn into Super Tails in Sonic 3.

Whilst I'd say Super Tails is non-canon I wouldn't say only Hedgehogs can go Super. No, Knuckles can clearly go Super as can some Robots like Mecha Sonic. I'd go as far to say that as long as they can use Chaos energy, anybody can go Super with the Chaos Emeralds: even humans. The Hedgehogs just get all the main focus and Sonic, Shadow and Silver are all very clearly the strongest characters.


Super Tails was in S3&K, Sonic Heroes, and the modern re-release of Sonic 2. He's definitely canon.

Also I'd rank Knuckles as stronger than Silver.

Added in 3 minutes 51 seconds:
Silver doesn't strike me as being particularly strong at all with regards to the rest of the cast. Add to that the fact that Shadow is an artificial lifeform... eh, Hedgehogs aren't especially strong, Sonic himself is the only strong 'normal' Hedgehog.

In the canon story of Sonic 2 and Sonic 3&K Tails was with Sonic the entire time as his partner, and Sonic used the Chaos Emeralds not Tails, Tails would never get the chance to go Super (He also apparently requires the Super Emeralds so Sonic 2 has no chance in hell of canonically having Super Tails): and in Heroes only Sonic goes Super: Tails and Knuckles just get power-up shields.

Added in 2 minutes 35 seconds:
In regards to Silver, whilst he's physically weak his Telekinesis is amazingly powerful and he has a natural connection to Chaos energy on par with Shadow, something Sonic had to earn through training and use.
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Re: The Sonic The Hedgehog thread

Postby Ivo-goji » Wed Oct 26, 2016 5:11 pm

SomeknowmeasXeno wrote:[in Heroes only Sonic goes Super: Tails and Knuckles just get power-up shields.

They are listed in the game's data as Super Tails and Super Knuckles.
SomeknowmeasXeno wrote:Added in 2 minutes 35 seconds:
In regards to Silver, whilst he's physically weak his Telekinesis is amazingly powerful and he has a natural connection to Chaos energy on par with Shadow, something Sonic had to earn through training and use.

Sonic managed to learn Chaos Control after seeing Shadow do it once, there was no training.
None of Silver's uses of Chaos Control suggest that he is even remotely close to Shadow's abilities. He basically picked it up like Sonic did.
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Re: The Sonic The Hedgehog thread

Postby SomeknowmeasXeno » Wed Oct 26, 2016 5:17 pm

Ivo-goji wrote:
SomeknowmeasXeno wrote:[in Heroes only Sonic goes Super: Tails and Knuckles just get power-up shields.

They are listed in the game's data as Super Tails and Super Knuckles.
SomeknowmeasXeno wrote:Added in 2 minutes 35 seconds:
In regards to Silver, whilst he's physically weak his Telekinesis is amazingly powerful and he has a natural connection to Chaos energy on par with Shadow, something Sonic had to earn through training and use.

Sonic managed to learn Chaos Control after seeing Shadow do it once, there was no training.
None of Silver's uses of Chaos Control suggest that he is even remotely close to Shadow's abilities. He basically picked it up like Sonic did.

They're listed in the game's data: not official sources. They also do not match their previous appearances or the physical traits of Super forms period.

Even after Sonic pulled off Chaos Control it took a lot out of him, and is probably why he canonically lost the fight to Shadow afterwards (Final Story shows the cannon was not destroyed and Eggman activated it without any problems, leading to Gerald's colony-drop scheme coming into effect) as he was still recovering. When Silver used Chaos Control, without ever seeing it demonstrated unlike Sonic, he was perfectly fine: it didn't put a strain on him at all.
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Re: The Sonic The Hedgehog thread

Postby Ivo-goji » Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:08 pm

SomeknowmeasXeno wrote:They're listed in the game's data: not official sources. They also do not match their previous appearances or the physical traits of Super forms period.

Is there an official source that says they aren't Super Tails and Super Knuckles?

Super Sonic's appearances changes all the time. His eyes used to be green, now they're red. His back spines used to point upwards, now they don't. In SA he had a gold sphere around him, now we don't see it. Classic Super Knuckles only has a slightly different appearance from his normal form, Heroes Super Knuckles isn't that big a change. Super Tails lacks his entourage of Super Flickies in Heroes, but that's easily explained as Flickies are absent in Heroes, and would serve no purpose in the boss fight since Metal Overlord is only vulnerable to Team Blast (that, and Super Tails isn't necessarily followed by Flickies all the time, they're not with him during Tails ending in S3&K for example). Without the Flickies Super Tails is pretty hard to distinguish from regular Tails; hence, adding the gold barrier isn't a big change. In either characters' case, the cosmetic update for Sonic Heroes is pretty minor, essentially the same kind of update Super Sonic received in SA.

After all, the way Team Sonic transforms in Heroes is the same as what happens at the end of Next Gen, and nobody questions if Super Shadow was Super Shadow.


SomeknowmeasXeno wrote:Even after Sonic pulled off Chaos Control it took a lot out of him, and is probably why he canonically lost the fight to Shadow afterwards (Final Story shows the cannon was not destroyed and Eggman activated it without any problems, leading to Gerald's colony-drop scheme coming into effect) as he was still recovering. When Silver used Chaos Control, without ever seeing it demonstrated unlike Sonic, he was perfectly fine: it didn't put a strain on him at all.

No, Sonic won that fight and stopped the cannon from firing.
Remember the Eclipse Cannon was already counting down to fire at the Earth when Sonic went to stop it. If he failed, the shot being prepped would have fired before anything else happened.
Also remember that Eggman only gets the final Chaos Emerald in the Hero story, while Tails and Amy are distracted by Sonic wrecking the Eclipse Cannon. If that didn't happen, Eggman wouldn't have gotten the Emerald at all.
Also, Shadow threatened to take Sonic's life. Obviously he didn't win if Sonic is still alive. Even the Dark story gives no indication that Shadow won, it just jumps to Eggman with the Emerald he got in the Hero story.

Sonic was only mildly dizzy for a few seconds after using Chaos Control to get away from the exploding escape pod (he's already under extreme stress when he first tried it; there's no particular reason to assume the technique itself caused his strain) and he was immediately able to perform Chaos Control effortlessly in the fight right after that.
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Re: The Sonic The Hedgehog thread

Postby SomeknowmeasXeno » Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:27 pm

Green-to-red eyes for Super Sonic can be explained as a retcon, as can the upturned back quills: Generations shows Classic Sonic's Super form looks like the SA-SA2 Super Sonic. The upturning of all of Sonic's quills in his Super form from Heroes onwards can be explained as him mastering the form and unlocking its potential, or even finding a state above regular Super, ala a Super Stage 2. Him providing Tails and Knuckles with 'Super Shields' in Heroes but Shadow and Silver with full-on Super forms in 06 can be explained as him learning how to better transfer the power. One thing is always kept consistent with Super forms: the fur color changes, to Gold for everyone but Knuckles, who gets pinks. Tails and Knuckles did not change color in Heroes, thus they were not truly Super, they were for all intents and purposes 'False Super'.

The countdown was going on with only 6 Emeralds, when Eggman got away with the 7th and put it into the power core that activated Gerald's colony drop because the ARK recognised the Eclipse Cannon had reached the requirements Gerald had programmed into the ARK to begin dropping itself to Earth and the guidlines he gave to Shadow to reach said goal: this means it was keeping track of the Eclipse Cannon's state, if the cannon was destroyed by Sonic that would have interfered with the system and cancelled Gerald's colony-drop requirements. Shadow not killing Sonic can be explained as their fight coming to an end just as Eggman got the 7th Emerald into the cannon: for all intents and purposes, Shadow had won regardless and so he wouldn't need to kill Sonic, they were all going to die anyway because the ARK was going to fall.
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Re: The Sonic The Hedgehog thread

Postby Ivo-goji » Wed Oct 26, 2016 7:15 pm

SomeknowmeasXeno wrote:One thing is always kept consistent with Super forms: the fur color changes, to Gold for everyone but Knuckles, who gets pinks. Tails and Knuckles did not change color in Heroes, thus they were not truly Super, they were for all intents and purposes 'False Super'.

Super Tails fur only flashes gold in S3&K. Super Sonic and Super Knuckles also flash with light in the 2D games, but Super Sonic's flashing was replaced with a static golden aura in the 3D games. Super Tails and Super Knuckles followed suit when updated for Sonic Heroes. Their powers are also functionally identical to Super Sonic's in both S3&K and Sonic Heroes- they were not therefore any weaker in the latter game. If the only differences the Heroes versions of Super Tails and Super Knuckles have from their older counterparts are cosmetic, it is not at all logical to conclude that these are 'false' super forms.
SomeknowmeasXeno wrote:The upturning of all of Sonic's quills in his Super form from Heroes onwards can be explained as him mastering the form and unlocking its potential, or even finding a state above regular Super, ala a Super Stage 2.

By the same token changes in other characters' super forms can be explained the same way.
Viz. Super Knuckles in S3&K doesn't defy gravity like Super Knuckles does in Sonic Heroes. The newer Super Knuckles is him mastering the form to hover all the time, but loses the pink fur in the process.

Actually, let's talk about that- Super Knuckles seems a lot stronger all around in Heroes compared to S3&K. It's mostly from gameplay differences, but still.
SomeknowmeasXeno wrote:if cannon was destroyed by Sonic that would have interfered with the system and cancelled Gerald's colony-drop requirements.

Saying the colony program would not initiate if the Cannon was damaged requires information not present in the game.
SomeknowmeasXeno wrote: Shadow not killing Sonic can be explained as their fight coming to an end just as Eggman got the 7th Emerald into the cannon: for all intents and purposes, Shadow had won regardless and so he wouldn't need to kill Sonic, they were all going to die anyway because the ARK was going to fall.

Incorrect, all of the cutscenes in SA2 tell a single story: if Sonic doesn't defeat Shadow and stop the ARK from firing, the scene with taking the last Emerald never happens, and the Final Story cannot play out.
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Re: The Sonic The Hedgehog thread

Postby soulgodzilla » Wed Oct 26, 2016 10:36 pm

God this is bringing me back memories of the moon being half destroyed.
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This isn't just the most stupidest idea that Eggman has ever made, It is the most suicidal idea he has ever made not just for him, but for all life on the planet! :facepalm:
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Re: The Sonic The Hedgehog thread

Postby SomeknowmeasXeno » Thu Oct 27, 2016 12:57 am

Hey, at least Eggman was a threat back then instead of the ass-clown Colors made him imto... I really hate Colors' story, actually I dislike Colors all around. It plays fine but it's story is a joke and too childish with no message behind it and it advertised itself as a 3D game when it was practicallu just a 2D game with a few 3D segments. When I get more legitimate enjoyment and fulfillment out of 06's story of all things, you're doing something wrong SEGA writers...
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Re: The Sonic The Hedgehog thread

Postby soulgodzilla » Thu Oct 27, 2016 2:55 am

SomeknowmeasXeno wrote:Hey, at least Eggman was a threat back then instead of the ass-clown Colors made him imto... I really hate Colors' story, actually I dislike Colors all around. It plays fine but it's story is a joke and too childish with no message behind it and it advertised itself as a 3D game when it was practicallu just a 2D game with a few 3D segments. When I get more legitimate enjoyment and fulfillment out of 06's story of all things, you're doing something wrong SEGA writers...

But he was this close, THIS close of destroying the moon. Which would have not only cause disasterous effect on the planet, but also bombard the place with chunks of the moon. And considering that the chunks of the half destroyed moon didnt fall on the earth or even made collison with the ARK I find bull crap.

Plus Eggman including Shadow and Rouge will now be on Nightmare Moon's poop list for an attempt to destroy the moon if she we're around here. Image
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Re: The Sonic The Hedgehog thread

Postby SomeknowmeasXeno » Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:09 am

Can, can we keep these two series seperate? Please? The Sonic franchise is trying to rebuild its reputation here.

Also, Eggman's a bad guy! Why would he care about the consequences of a destroyed moon when he's evil?

Added in 5 minutes 10 seconds:
Hell, destroying a portion of the moon is nothing in comparison to splitting the planet into multiple pieces.
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Re: The Sonic The Hedgehog thread

Postby soulgodzilla » Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:25 am

SomeknowmeasXeno wrote:Can, can we keep these two series seperate? Please? The Sonic franchise is trying to rebuild its reputation here.

Also, Eggman's a bad guy! Why would he care about the consequences of a destroyed moon when he's evil?

Added in 5 minutes 10 seconds:
Hell, destroying a portion of the moon is nothing in comparison to splitting the planet into multiple pieces.

Heres a line that I think not only heroes should remember, but as well as villains who have a goal to conquer the earth instead of severely damaging it that it becomes uninhabitable or destroying it.
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The planet should have been effected a bit and should be bombarded by falling chunks of the moon. I would be expecting if one of those pieces just happens to land on Eggman's base or worse, hitting the Antarctica and causing it to melt and flood the whole world.
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Re: The Sonic The Hedgehog thread

Postby Godzilla165 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:05 am

One thing I wished they did, was at least bring back Roger Craig Smith's voice from Colors, for Sonic. I personally liked that it was a bit deeper, but still had all on Sonic's attitude, care, and sarcasm. It'd fit in really well with the tone that (I guess and hope),they're trying to go for with Project Sonic.
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Re: The Sonic The Hedgehog thread

Postby Ivo-goji » Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:58 am

Personally I'm satisfied with all of Eggman's appearances in modern games. He's much more competent now than he was in the old games (pulled off massive scale plans in Unleashed and Colors that make his previous schemes look petty in comparison, almost won in Generations, turned the tables on both Sonic and the Deadly Six in Lost World). Eggman is a versatile character, not a dry generic villain with no personality, he can be comedic as well as menacing depending on situation. In Sonic Adventure he was perfectly capable of goofing around with his soldiers in Gamma's story and scaring the hell out of everyone as the last boss of Tails' story. That's a villain with flexibility.

soulgodzilla wrote:God this is bringing me back memories of the moon being half destroyed.
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This isn't just the most stupidest idea that Eggman has ever made, It is the most suicidal idea he has ever made not just for him, but for all life on the planet! :facepalm:

Causing planet-wide destruction isn't suicidal if you're in space :P
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Re: The Sonic The Hedgehog thread

Postby soulgodzilla » Thu Oct 27, 2016 6:14 am

Ivo-goji wrote:Personally I'm satisfied with all of Eggman's appearances in modern games. He's much more competent now than he was in the old games (pulled off massive scale plans in Unleashed and Colors that make his previous schemes look petty in comparison, almost won in Generations, turned the tables on both Sonic and the Deadly Six in Lost World). Eggman is a versatile character, not a dry generic villain with no personality, he can be comedic as well as menacing depending on situation. In Sonic Adventure he was perfectly capable of goofing around with his soldiers in Gamma's story and scaring the hell out of everyone as the last boss of Tails' story. That's a villain with flexibility.

soulgodzilla wrote:God this is bringing me back memories of the moon being half destroyed.
Image
This isn't just the most stupidest idea that Eggman has ever made, It is the most suicidal idea he has ever made not just for him, but for all life on the planet! :facepalm:

Causing planet-wide destruction isn't suicidal if you're in space :P

I agree with you on Eggman being comedic yet menacing at the same time. He and Metal Sonic we're probably the only entertaining characters in Sanic Boom: Rise of Lyric compare to everyone else.

But if you destroyed you're entire home planet, where will you go then? What will you do? What uncharted planet will you live in for the rest of you're life after destroying you're homeworld?
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Re: The Sonic The Hedgehog thread

Postby Ivo-goji » Thu Oct 27, 2016 7:44 am

^Well, Eggman has literally conquered other planets before, so that wouldn't be entirely out of character for him. But I'm sure his plan in SA2 was only to do so much damage that the Earth's nations wouldn't be able to resist him. He also probably figured he had enough control over the Eclipse Cannon that he didn't need to worry about collateral damage. More overconfident than anything else.
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Re: The Sonic The Hedgehog thread

Postby Godzilla165 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 8:56 am

Eggman split the Earth apart, and killed however many people by doing so, just to release an ancient entity and build Eggmanland. I think it's safe to say that the good doctor gives no shits.

Also, I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I actually liked how Eggman was portrayed in 06, design and all. He may have been a dumbass at certain points, but I liked the version overall.
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Re: The Sonic The Hedgehog thread

Postby SomeknowmeasXeno » Thu Oct 27, 2016 9:28 am

Godzilla165 wrote:Eggman split the Earth apart, and killed however many people by doing so, just to release an ancient entity and build Eggmanland. I think it's safe to say that the good doctor gives no shits.

Also, I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I actually liked how Eggman was portrayed in 06, design and all. He may have been a dumbass at certain points, but I liked the version overall.

I like 06's Eggman snarky personality, "Wouldn't the door have been easier?" is skreeonking brilliant, and his no-nonsense attitude: his redesign just bugs the skreeonk out of me: mostly due to the 4 golden nipples on his jacket. I'd still rather take realistic Eggman over that Pixar style of the humans in Unleashed though.
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Re: The Sonic The Hedgehog thread

Postby Ivo-goji » Thu Oct 27, 2016 10:22 am

Next Gen has a hundred things wrong with, but I love how the core cast is written in that game.
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