The Official Star Wars Saga Thread

[Ivo-goji]

So on another forum we were debating the religious symbolism in Star Wars. The OP was arguing that while the original trilogy had a story rooted in a Christian worldview (love and personal sacrifice triumphing over man's fallen nature) while the prequel trilogy was built around a Buddhist paradigm (the world is impermenant and attachment to worldly things leads to suffering), suggesting that these differing themes resulted from a shift in George Lucas's own belief system over time. I argued on the contrary that

Episodes I-VI are essentially a Christian narrative. Luke redeems Vader from his fallen condition in the OT, and the PT chronicles the Fall. There are a lot of affinities with Buddhist thought throughout the series as well, but I don't really feel they were stronger in the PT than the OT. Luke seems to overcome some of his attachments between the events of Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi; consider his reaction to losing Ben and the danger of losing his friends on Bespin vs his relative tranquility at Endor, for example. You call his love for his father an attachment, but that's not absolutely true: one could take the perspective that he's reaching out to relieve another being of suffering out of compassion, a classic Buddhist virtue.

Conversely, I see Christian themes in the PT. Anakin is the Adam of the Star Wars universe, Padme is the Eve; practically innocent herself, her presence none the less tempts Adam/Anakin to disobey the commandment he'd been given (not to marry). Attack of the Clones even has them spending much of their time in paradisic Naboo as they fall in love. Anakin's love for Padme is not inherently bad, but it is what makes him vulnerable to the enticements of an Adversary, hidden in plain sight by a deceptive outward form, offering forbidden knowledge. Lucas has directly compared Sidious to Satan, and Sidious plays the role well. He beguils Adam/Anakin to accept the forbidden knowledge, claiming that Eve/Padme will not die, that this knowledge leads to immortality. The similarities between serpent tempting Eve to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge, "desirable to make one wise", and the scene where Palpatine tempting Anakin with his Tragedy of Plagueis the Wise are no coincidence. And like in the Genesis narrative, by partaking of the Dark Side for a false immortality, Anakin loses his access to true eternal life, which Obi-Wan and Yoda have learned from Qui-Gon (becoming one with the Force), as Adam was cut off from the Tree of Life. The consequences of Anakin's transgression are that the Man "dies" (becoming a machine, a walking tomb), and the entire world spiritually dies with him (the Jedi killed, the Republic swept away), and Satan has power over the Man. Only from the hope of a future redemption by the 'son of Man', when Satan is cast into a pit and the dead Man can live again, will he have the opportunity to gain eternal life once more (joining Yoda and Obi-Wan in the Force).

And then of course there's the obvious stuff like Anakin being born of a virgin and being the Chosen One and what not.
On that score, it's curious how Luke and Anakin split the Christ parallels between them; Anakin gets the virgin birth, but Luke gets the adoration of the Magi, escapes from the Massacre of the Innocents, and is secreted to Egypt; Luke offers himself as a sacrifice, but it's Anakin who dies and is resurrected; Luke resists the devil's temptation, while Anakin throws the devil down. There's a ton of Christian symbolism going on the PT though.

This is a really interesting topic.

[Zarm]

I would agree. And Lucas' more recent definitions of 'balance to the Force,' essentially the eradication of evil and the restoration to its originally-intended, only-light condition (whereas most people had assumed a sort of yin-yang 'good and evil are equal, so why would the Jedi want that to happen?' paradigm) definitely points in that direction as well. I think that a number of elements from Eastern philosophy have definitely been infused... but for the overall story structure and the symbolism in it, I think you're right on point.

[kamilleblu]

The Last Jedi has been rejected by Chinese audiences. It had an abysmal debut over the weekend and is already being pulled from most theaters. Looks like those early estimates of a $1.6 billion total gross are out of the question and it'll run out of gas somewhere around the $1.3 billion mark. Interestingly enough, that's what Rogue One was expected to make before stopping at $1.056 billion.

[ShinGi]

The Last Jedi has been rejected by Chinese audiences. It had an abysmal debut over the weekend and is already being pulled from most theaters. Looks like those early estimates of a $1.6 billion total gross are out of the question and it'll run out of gas somewhere around the $1.3 billion mark. Interestingly enough, that's what Rogue One was expected to make before stopping at $1.056 billion.

Well Chinese audience never really liked SW, Rogue One bombed as well there, they just dont have a connection to the franchise as Western audiences have, though i do agree that Disney has to be a little dissapointed at the gross, from what i read they expected a 1,7 billion gross

[miguelnuva]

Disney shouldn't be upset after what happened with Justice League. That should show them had bad things get. Also according to sources they made back the money they spent on Star Wars so going forward unless theirs a flop Star Wars is in the black.

[Loganrules115]

Disney shouldn't be upset after what happened with Justice League. That should show them had bad things get. Also according to sources they made back the money they spent on Star Wars so going forward unless theirs a flop Star Wars is in the black.

What does Justice League have to do with Star Wars?

[miguelnuva]

Disney shouldn't be upset after what happened with Justice League. That should show them had bad things get. Also according to sources they made back the money they spent on Star Wars so going forward unless theirs a flop Star Wars is in the black.

What does Justice League have to do with Star Wars?

Justice League was a large tentpole film that should have made a billion dollars but word of mouth killed it. Last Jedi has had to fight off word of mouth as well and it was mostly unaffected.

[MandaSaurus]

Spoiler:

Some of us were worried that the Elite Praetorian Guards would just stand around like the Emperor's Royal Guards - no worries! After Kylo Ren offed Snoke, the Praetorians were all over Kylo and Rey like white on rice! True, Kylo and Rey managed to kill them all, but they almost got killed themselves in the process! The Elite Praetorian Guards did NOT stand around like wall decorations, and were NOT pussies! I hold them in the same regard as the ERGs - if not higher...

[UltramanGoji]

...You know there’s a spoiler tag feature, right?

[Zarm]

Some of us were worried that the Elite Praetorian Guards would just stand around like the Emperor's Royal Guards - no worries! After Kylo Ren offed Snoke, the Praetorians were all over Kylo and Rey like white on rice! True, Kylo and Rey managed to kill them all, but they almost got killed themselves in the process! The Elite Praetorian Guards did NOT stand around like wall decorations, and were NOT pussies! I hold them in the same regard as the ERGs - if not higher...

I'm not sure if Snoke would hold them in that high a regard- but at least, after totally failing at their job, they made a game effort of avenging the master they'd failed...

[kamilleblu]

Disney shouldn't be upset after what happened with Justice League. That should show them had bad things get. Also according to sources they made back the money they spent on Star Wars so going forward unless theirs a flop Star Wars is in the black.

What does Justice League have to do with Star Wars?

Justice League was a large tentpole film that should have made a billion dollars but word of mouth killed it. Last Jedi has had to fight off word of mouth as well and it was mostly unaffected.

If I were Bob Iger or a Disney shareholder I would be very concerned about the financial performance of The Last Jedi. After its tremendous opening weekend (only $20 million less than The Force Awakens), it has been falling short of expectations ever since. It suffered the largest first weekend to second weekend drop ever and has already fallen behind the daily intakes Rogue One was enjoying at this point in its run. Even after that disastrous second weekend it was still expected to gross over $1.6 billion worldwide and will likely miss that number by $300 million now that it flopped in China. And this was after reducing it from initial $1.7-$1.9 billion estimates. That raises the question of how well would it have done had Disney not strong-armed theater chains into exclusively dedicating their primary screens to this movie for 4 weeks.

In the shadow of the biggest movie of the year and faced with the aforementioned screen count disadvantage, Jumanji quickly proved itself serious competition and is well on its way towards becoming one of the highest grossing films of 2017. I could see it displacing GotG 2, Wonder Woman, Thor: Ragnarok, and Spider-Man: Homecoming depending on how it does in Asia and how strong its legs prove overall. Disney's negotiating power with theaters when it comes to Star Wars has definitely taken a hit and Sony has proven the brand can be successfully counter-programmed. Elsewhere, Solo: A Star Wars Story was essentially entirely reshot over the summer and is allegedly undergoing further reshoots. With only four months to go before its release, how is it not receiving more attention?

[Rody]

Hey, I made a valiant effort to turn the conversation towards the cinematography of Empire, but nobody was really biting.

Too intimidating. You sound knowledgeable enough that anything we'd contribute would just make us sound like dummies by comparrison.

Yeah, sadly, I know nothing about the technicalities of cinematography - although I should probably seriously consider reading up, or something. The visual presentation of a cinematic story is one of the big things I've been trying to pay attention to in movies these days.

I'm curious, eabaker: what is your go-to copy of Empire (or any of the original trilogy) for viewing? The films have been released so many times (officially and unofficially) on home video - and again, my technical knowledge of cinema is so poor - that I have no idea what the best way to watch them more than casually is.

[eabaker]

Hey, I made a valiant effort to turn the conversation towards the cinematography of Empire, but nobody was really biting.

Too intimidating. You sound knowledgeable enough that anything we'd contribute would just make us sound like dummies by comparrison.

Yeah, sadly, I know nothing about the technicalities of cinematography - although I should probably seriously consider reading up, or something. The visual presentation of a cinematic story is one of the big things I've been trying to pay attention to in movies these days.

I'm curious, eabaker: what is your go-to copy of Empire (or any of the original trilogy) for viewing? The films have been released so many times (officially and unofficially) on home video - and again, my technical knowledge of cinema is so poor - that I have no idea what the best way to watch them more than casually is.

Honestly, I know there are better ways to watch them than any I currently have easy access to. I'm not savvy enough with the tech stuff to have downloaded the Despecialized Editions and made them playable on my TV or anything, so I'm pretty much stuck with my DVD copies, and theatrical cut released on DVD isn't even anamorphic.

[Rody]

I've heard about the Despecialized Editions before; I should probably look into that. In the meantime, I guess I'd better keep my eyes on Amazon/eBay for those DVDs...

I forget, who has how much say on the theatrical editions these days? One slight hope I had with Disney buying Fox was maybe we were a step closer to those cuts seeing official light of day again.

[eabaker]

I've heard about the Despecialized Editions before; I should probably look into that. In the meantime, I guess I'd better keep my eyes on Amazon/eBay for those DVDs...

I forget, who has how much say on the theatrical editions these days? One slight hope I had with Disney buying Fox was maybe we were a step closer to those cuts seeing official light of day again.

What I'd really like to see would be remasters of the 1996 LaserDisc versions. They were basically the theatrical cuts (although the original had the A New Hope title), but with cleaned up compositing.

[UltramanGoji]

I forget, who has how much say on the theatrical editions these days? One slight hope I had with Disney buying Fox was maybe we were a step closer to those cuts seeing official light of day again.

Fox had distribution rights (theatrical and home video) for the first six films (bar ANH) until 2020. They had A New Hope indefinitely.

It's speculated that this was another big factor in Disney placing a winning bid on the Fox library aside from the Marvel properties. Had Comcast/Universal won the rights, they'd own those films and characters, making Disney unable to profit from home video releases.

As far as who owns the original theatrical cuts? Nobody really knows. There's rumors that George Lucas had a clause in his sale with Disney that they couldn't touch those, but those are mostly unfounded.

[g2vd]

The Last Jedi was the biggest disappointment of the year

[darthzilla99]

Saw The Last Jedi twice. The most underrated SW film of all time (And SW has been in my family my whole life).

[eabaker]

Saw The Last Jedi twice. The most underrated SW film of all time (And SW has been in my family my whole life).

I would tend to agree with that. Previously, I'd have given the title to the flawed-but-interesting Revenge of the Sith.

The difference here, though, is that opinions are so much more divided; while TLJ has some vocal detractors, it's also receiving a hearty share of effusive praise.

[Tyrant_Lizard_King]

I know of several big Star Wars fans that absolutely adore TLJ. I didn't love it but I do really like it. It lacks the charm of the originals but that was somewhat to be expected. It's still worlds better than the prequels. For one it's competently acted and directed.