Official News topic

[wataru]

Following someone isnt a use of force. Also, it's been stated by Zimmerman's side that Trayvon attacked him and actually swung and hit him.

Who do I believe? I believe both sides have their take of the story. But I believe Zimmerman followed a hooded black male after profiling him and Trayvon saw him, said some colorful shit and they got into it, resulting in a pew pew pew and a dead black boy.

Also, 911 dispatchers are not officers of the law. You are not required to follow their orders/advice. They're normal people hired off the street and not even deputized.

[Jomei]

Following someone isnt a use of force.

Didn't say it was. Read the words. I said he loses his defense if he "provokes" the use of force. That's the language in the law. Stalking someone at night certainly seems like one way to provoke a conflict.

By the way, in case you missed my edit, I pointed out that the shooting was on February 12, whereas you said Trayvon was suspicious for wearing a hoodie in the "spring/summer." I'm sure it's warmer in Florida than it is in the midwest in February, but I was in Orange County, California in March, and it was plenty cool for a hoodie, especially at night.

[wataru]

Following someone isnt a use of force.

Didn't say it was. Read the words. I said he loses his defense if he "provokes" the use of force. That's the language in the law. Stalking someone at night certainly seems like one way to provoke a conflict.

By the way, in case you missed my edit, I pointed out that the shooting was on February 12, whereas you said Trayvon was suspicious for wearing a hoodie in the "spring/summer." I'm sure it's warmer in Florida than it is in the midwest in February, but I was in Orange County, California in March, and it was plenty cool for a hoodie, especially at night.

Here's your arguement:

"When he (Zimmerman) said 'I'm following him', he lost his defense."

Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless

he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger

#1 there is no 'defense' to lose. Zimmerman is a private citizen. It is not illegal to profile someone, or follow them.

#2 - following someone isnt force. If Trayvon saw Zimmerman following him, it's not illegal. If Trayvon felt threatened, he should've followed [b]/

#3 - Reasonable means to escape implies that Trayvon presented a threat. Suspicious activity =/= threat. Trayvon most likely presented himself as one by what I stated previously - Im sure some altercation took place and Im more likely to believe some pushing and loud shouting starting.

I dont believe Zimmerman followed then gunned down Trayvon in cold blood. I believe he followed Trayvon, Trayvon saw him, started yelling, Zimmerman yelled back, some laying of hands happened and Trayvon was shot.

The saddest part of all of this is if Zimmerman had been black, this wouldnt have been more then a 60 second news blip. "Black man shoots younger black man in Sanford. Suspect name is <blah>, victim's name is <blah>. Police investigating." Then you'd never hear about it again.

[Jomei]

No, here's my argument. The quote from the law itself is just to show you the exact language that I'm basing it on.

It's actually not on his side if he provoked the use of force against himself, as one version of the story--backed by evidence--seems to suggest. At that point, he forfeits his claim to merely standing his ground and must make every attempt to flee before using lethal force. In fact, one of the sponsors of the Florida law is quoted as saying, "When he (Zimmerman) said 'I'm following him', he lost his defense."

Let me try to make this simpler.

1) If Zimmerman provoked Martin to use force against him, then he cannot claim defense under "stand your ground" unless he tried his hardest to run away before shooting. (I quote the law to back this point up--the law does not give people a right to go following any person they find suspicious and then shoot them if they resist your AUTHORITAH)

2) If following someone at night, armed with a gun, and harassing them about what they're doing without any authority to do so can be called "provoking" a conflict, then Zimmerman did provoke the incident.

Therefore, I'm not sure Zimmerman can claim he was only "standing his ground" if we follow the letter of this law. The question is what counts as provoking the use of force, but that's where I quote the sponsor of the actual bill who had the above quote to say on the matter.

[wataru]

If you're face-to-face with someone Jerry Springer style, telling the other person to hit you ("cmon man, do it! Punch me. Hit me muthafucka!) and the other person does - it's not called provoking force - it's called assault and battery. Someone in your face, or across the street or 10' away or wherever telling you to go skreeonk your mother, you POS cocksucker blah blah doesnt give the other person the right to attack them.

As far as I know, Zimmerman wasnt brandishing his firearm willy-nilly when he was "harassing" him about what he was doing. BTW you can question anyone you want, and their activities. He doesnt mean the other person has to answer.

Here's what I think happened...

Zimmerman saw a hooded black person at night and followed him, maybe profiling him (living near Sanford and my gf living in Sanford, a black person in a hoodie at night really is somethining to be aware of if you're also out and about). He called the police. The operator said not to follow him. Zimmerman does NOT have to follow this advice (if it had been an officer, then yes he would've had to). Zimmerman went upto Trayvon and questioned him, most likely in an aggressive manner (loud, boisterous manner), and Trayvon probably got in his face. As it was stated by Zimmerman's camp, Trayvon DID physically attack Zimmerman (and I believe this) and a row commensed ending in Zimmerman shooting and killed Trayvon.

Is this 2nd degree murder? No. If Zimmerman pulled the gun in the heat of the fight and shot Trayvon, I would call it self defense. Both Zimmerman and Trayvon acted a bit stupid but I dont think he set out following Trayvon to kill him.

[Jomei]

You're still not getting it. I'm not saying that attacking someone who provokes you isn't assault. We're talking about the stand your ground law. If you provoke someone, and they attack you, you don't have a right to shoot them under this law unless you HAVE to in order to save your life.

Normally under stand your ground laws if you are attacked, you DON'T have to try to retreat before using deadly force--hence the name "stand your ground." But if you provoke the attack (perhaps by following someone in the streets at night), you have to try to escape from the conflict before you're justified in using deadly force.

[wataru]

You're still not getting it. I'm not saying that attacking someone who provokes you isn't assault. We're talking about the stand your ground law. If you provoke someone, and they attack you, you don't have a right to shoot them down unless you HAVE to in order to save your life.

And you're not reading my words.

Following someone isnt provoking.
Questioning someone isnt provoking.
Getting in someone's face and going off isnt provoking them.
^^ and this one, if this DID happen, the first person to actually put hands on the other committed an act that moves beyond he stand your ground law.

The stand your ground law fails in the heading into the threat area. Which is why is needs to be examined.

[Jomei]

I'm not sure it's clear what counts as provocation. I did quote the sponsor of the bill, though, and he said that Zimmerman lost his "stand your ground" defense by following Martin. It's possible that he's wrong, but unless you have a source showing what does count as "provoking an attack," then that's the best indication we have.

[wataru]

The author of the bill was a tosser anyway because it needs retooling.

If following someone is provoking an attack, then you better tell all security officers, AP officers, private investigators and bounty hunters that they're provoking attacks by those theyre following they find suspicious! I followed a guy 4 days ago across the parking lot to ask what he was doing there.

[miguelnuva]

If Trevon attacked Zimmerman then were was the blood and the wounds on Zimmerman?

And following is provoking how many people want someone following them.

[Living Corpse]

And following is provoking how many people want someone following them.

*Raises hand*

I've been in a really sour mood the past few days and would love nothing more then a good excuse to punch someone right now. But that's just me.

[miguelnuva]

What I'm trying to say is if your walking down the street and someone is following you, your not going to feel your life is in danger?

[Living Corpse]

What I'm trying to say is if your walking down the street and someone is following you, your not going to feel your life is in danger?

Had it happen a few times, usually just people walking who just happen to be walking the same dieraction as me. The few times I DO have some punk teens following me calling out "hey faggot" and "come here so I can beat your ass" and trying to scare me I just turn right around and walk right to them and the little chicken shits show that they're all bark and no bite by turning around and walking away once I get close.

Kids in my town are skreeonk pussies, can't back up the talk.

[wataru]

Francis Bean Cobain says Twitter should ban her mother, Courtney Love:

http://www.aol.com/video/francis-bean-c ... ards-image

I agree with Francis. Courtney Love might have a hugely popular band, but it's NO WHERE near as huge as Nirvana was/is and I still think that eats at her every single day. So she resorts to this shock name-drop shit. Another reason I will never buy a Hole album.

[Showa Gyaos]

A bounty of $16 million has been placed on the heads of Bush and Obama.

[UltramanGoji]

A bounty of $16 million has been placed on the heads of Bush and Obama.

*sigh*

[Sydney Aradi]

really a 16 million dollar bounty on Bush & Obama's heads heads?

[Crocodile]

A bounty of $16 million has been placed on the heads of Bush and Obama.

Wow, Parliament must be so embaressed.

[Kiryu2012]

...Who the hell would hunt for Obama and Bush?!? Granted it might be Mr. Black, but any human would have to be retarded beyond belief to place a bounty on Obama and Bush's heads.

[Godzilla 1995]

...Who the hell would hunt for Obama and Bush?!? Granted it might be Mr. Black, but any human would have to be retarded beyond belief to place a bounty on Obama and Bush's heads.

Terrorists. I figure every American president for the next couple terms is gonna have a bounty on their heads, no surprise to me Bush and Obama are marked.