Official News topic

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Zarm
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Re: Official News topic

Postby Zarm » Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:00 am

eabaker wrote:While I agree with much of what you say here, I would like to point out what reads to me as an element of unintended contradiction in your post. You write off a lot of contemporary perspectives as things that are only embraced by "a vocal half of the population," but then immediately refer to "things that everyone believed without controversy a mere decade ago;" but you're assuming that the vocal portion of the population a decade ago were representing universally held opinions then, rather that that a lot of people holding opposing perspectives did not feel free to speak out because of the cultural consequences that would befall them.


That is entirely possible; I can restate. In the former case, censure seems to come even if an issue is more-or-less evenly divided ('Half the people believe A, half the people believe B, but because of vocal/media support for A, B support will earn you censure despite the fact that there is nothing objective that makes B more valid than A in the ongoing debate.')

In the latter case, it might be more accurate to say that society has turned on previous social consensus to the degree that noncontroversial beliefs (particularly about human sexuality) of even a few years ago are now hate speech, or worthy of derision. In a way, it is the same phenomenon; an issue that is split with advocates on both sides, but one suddenly gains the power of social censure, bypassing debate and going straight to 'disagreement is grounds for condemnation with widespread ramifications for livliehood.'

Not only do we not discuss issues anymore, preferring to shut down or even threaten opposing viewpoints into silence, but in most issues, one side has just sort of claimed moral high ground status, and a frightening number of business-owners and public policies go along with enforcing it, choking off debate and making any discussion nigh0impossible for fear of the stick that the prevailing side wields to silence dissent.


eabaker wrote:"It feels unsafe to open your mouth at work" has been true for huge swathes of the population throughout the last century; it's just true for (some) different people now (while still also true for some of the same people it always was; working in sinful liberal [hahaha, as if] Hollywood, it's easy for me to forget that - just for example - in much of the country, my gay coworkers would put their jobs [and their safety] at risk by living out of the closet).


Where...?

eabaker wrote:I think the most widespread problem these days is a lack of nuance in people's perspectives and in how they express those perspectives. For instance, this notion that disagreement = hate? Probably most of the time it's better understood as "support of unmistakably hateful people, even if rooted in god intentions, is in practice no different than hate." But some people don't have the patience to express it that way, and even what it is expressed that way, some others aren't interested in hearing all the words or asking for further elucidation.


I don't think that's entirely accurate, though; because 'hateful people' are defined, via circular logic, as those with differing opinions. 'You can't disagree about X without being hateful' is reframed as 'Supporting hateful people is functionally equivalent to being hateful,' but 'hateful people' are still 'those who disagree about X.' I think we're generally at a point where someone has decided 'There simply can't be any debate on this topic, dissent is hate' on a lot of different issues, and a frighteningly-large segment of the culture and populace simply go along with that. (And I don't want to sound like a classic conservative shill by naming that 'someone' as a biased news media, but... ;) I do think news outlets on both sides are doing a little scarily too much to influence what the public 'should' think about an issue rather than just reporting the issue.) But I think that's a large part of the current political polarization; we've made it impossible to discuss any of the issues because our own position on the issue is so instrinsically-morally-right that disagreeing with it is automatically hate and bigotry and a desire to tear down all that is good.


eabaker wrote:I don't think people on any side of most issues spend enough time really investigating the perspectives of the other sides (there are never just two).


That is very, very true.

Added in 3 minutes 38 seconds:
Darth Kiryu wrote:And don't get me started on fact-checking. I've only recently started fact-checking myself in regards to stuff I agree with.


Yeah, i hear you. It can be surprisingly difficult to just... think of questioning the sources; to fall into the habit of just accepting claims as read. And it takes a force of effort to keep that mindset of 'check the facts before you let outrage carry you away on a tide of emotion.'
Last edited by Zarm on Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Official News topic

Postby eabaker » Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:15 am

Zarm wrote:Not only do we not discuss issues anymore, preferring to shut down or even threaten opposing viewpoints into silence, but in most issues, one side has just sort of claimed moral high ground status, and a frightening number of business-owners and public policies go along with enforcing it, choking off debate and making any discussion nigh0impossible for fear of the stick that the prevailing side wields to silence dissent.


And again, I'd say that this has always been true, not least of all the "one side has... claimed moral high ground status" aspect. I mean, Jerry Falwell literally named his organization "The Moral Majority."

Added in 5 minutes 57 seconds:
Zarm wrote:I don't think that's entirely accurate, though; because 'hateful people' are defined, via circular logic, as those with differing opinions. 'You can't disagree about X without being hateful' is reframed as 'Supporting hateful people is functionally equivalent to being hateful,' but 'hateful people' are still 'those who disagree about X.'


I disagree about the mechanism behind what we both agree is a problem. The starting point here is, "These specific officials support policies that hurt people." The unfortunate tendency is then to lump together an entire platform, to say, "Anyone who gets behind these people, and therefore any who gets behind anyone associated with these people, is hateful." But it doesn't begin with demonizing disagreement itself.

But I don't think we're gonna get on the same page on this one.
Last edited by eabaker on Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:23 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Official News topic

Postby Zarm » Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:24 am

eabaker wrote:
Zarm wrote:Not only do we not discuss issues anymore, preferring to shut down or even threaten opposing viewpoints into silence, but in most issues, one side has just sort of claimed moral high ground status, and a frightening number of business-owners and public policies go along with enforcing it, choking off debate and making any discussion nigh0impossible for fear of the stick that the prevailing side wields to silence dissent.


And again, I'd say that this has always been true, not least of all the "one side has... claimed moral high ground status" aspect. I mean, Jerry Falwell literally named his organization "The Moral Majority."


True- but I don't think the majority of businesses and public-policy-makers just rolled with it because he did so. That's what I feel like has changed in this last decade or two; people made the claims all the time. But now, people make the claims and, without question, some invisible cultural force declares them the instant winner for simply making the claim, and begins to enforce that victory with censure and threat and accusations of bigotry/ignorance/malfeasance/unpatriotism that have become the new baseline.

Basically, the claimants used to have the burden of proof that their moral high ground was actually morally and logically correct. Nowadays, it feels like the claim is considered the proof, and the burden of proof suddenly shifts to any dissenters. (Heck, I think it's the feeling of that exact phenomenon during the majority of the last decade, and resentful backlash against it, that put Donald Trump in the White House).

Added in 5 minutes 55 seconds:
eabaker wrote:
Zarm wrote:I don't think that's entirely accurate, though; because 'hateful people' are defined, via circular logic, as those with differing opinions. 'You can't disagree about X without being hateful' is reframed as 'Supporting hateful people is functionally equivalent to being hateful,' but 'hateful people' are still 'those who disagree about X.'


I disagree about the mechanism behind what we both agree is a problem. The starting point here is, "These specific officials support policies that hurt people." The unfortunate tendency is then to lump together an entire platform, to say, "Anyone who gets behind these people, and therefore any who gets behind anyone associated with these people, is hateful." But it doesn't begin with demonizing disagreement itself.

But I don't think we're gonna get on the same page on this one.


I think we're talking about two different things, in that case. (I think we're both trying to be vague enough to avoid a real-world political argument erupting, and in this case, that vagueness is working against us). I'm not talking about any particular officials, but more a general 'I treat anyone who has a different view as hateful because any differing view is hateful. If you argue with me or hold a different view, it can only be born of hatred.' A sort of assumption of bad faith combined with an automatic assumption that any differing viewpoint can only come from a place of hatred. (That, and its sibling-phenomenon seen heaviest on college campuses, where the very having of a differing opinion from the majority is treated as an act of hatred that must not get a chance to speak, much less make a case for its POV).

I think what you're talking about is more along the line of 'All Person-Y supporters are fanatics and bigots!' and 'Anyone takign person-Y's side in this debate could only be doing so because of their agenda'-style bad-faith politics in Washington?
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Re: Official News topic

Postby eabaker » Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:33 am

Zarm wrote:
eabaker wrote:
Zarm wrote:Not only do we not discuss issues anymore, preferring to shut down or even threaten opposing viewpoints into silence, but in most issues, one side has just sort of claimed moral high ground status, and a frightening number of business-owners and public policies go along with enforcing it, choking off debate and making any discussion nigh0impossible for fear of the stick that the prevailing side wields to silence dissent.


And again, I'd say that this has always been true, not least of all the "one side has... claimed moral high ground status" aspect. I mean, Jerry Falwell literally named his organization "The Moral Majority."


True- but I don't think the majority of businesses and public-policy-makers just rolled with it because he did so. That's what I feel like has changed in this last decade or two; people made the claims all the time. But now, people make the claims and, without question, some invisible cultural force declares them the instant winner for simply making the claim, and begins to enforce that victory with censure and threat and accusations of bigotry/ignorance/malfeasance/unpatriotism that have become the new baseline.

Basically, the claimants used to have the burden of proof that their moral high ground was actually morally and logically correct. Nowadays, it feels like the claim is considered the proof, and the burden of proof suddenly shifts to any dissenters. (Heck, I think it's the feeling of that exact phenomenon during the majority of the last decade, and resentful backlash against it, that put Donald Trump in the White House).


As an atheist and as someone who has spoken at length with many gay friends (ranging in age from their 20s to their 70s - or, actually, a couple [in both sense of the word] may be in their 80s by now) about their experiences in our society, my perception of the power and influence of the Moral Majority (both the organization and the broader social movement) doesn't line up with yours.

Witch hunts are nothing new. At least we no longer live in society where people can be tortured to death in response to "spectral evidence."

I'm also starting to think that we're getting a little too abstract for the "News" thread, so I'm out of this one.
Last edited by eabaker on Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Official News topic

Postby KManX89 » Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:20 pm

FBI is allowed to criminally prosecute Brett Kavanaugh for lying under oath to Senate.

The guy who claims he doesn't know Ford despite her dating one of his closest friends at the time, conveniently points to a calendar with all the names she named on it and lied about Keyser refuting her account on top of all his uncovered yearbook lies under oath can now be prosecuted or perjury ON TOP of the rape investigation (remember, there are no statue of limitations for rape/sexual assault in Maryland, so he can be criminally-prosecuted for that as well as being investigated).

Uh oh. Not looking too good for Cosbynaugh.
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Re: Official News topic

Postby Zarm » Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:56 pm

Edit: You know what? I don't want to throw my hat into this ring. I have regrained from posting about this news story several dozen times in the past few days. Suffice it to say, I have been getting a very different perspective, and suspect that the investigation may conclude rather differently. But I hope that it brings some clarity and finality to what has become a horrible circus and, I personally believe, has horribly used two quite-possibly-innocent victims (and one, either way, that most certainly is) in the cause of dirty politics.
Last edited by Zarm on Sat Sep 29, 2018 3:08 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Official News topic

Postby Greyshot151 » Sat Sep 29, 2018 3:34 pm

In regards to Ford/Kav deal,

Honestly, I tend to lead more so with Ford than Kavanaugh. I think for everyone, there is a piece of evidence that screams to innocence or guilt for this. Again, this is just for me, but here is the thing that makes me lean one way over the other:

The Therapist and dates - THIS is my biggest support of the claim. Again, people can come forth and lie, but the support of dates from previous sessions and what was said tend to give Ford a bit of credit here. Yes, his name wasn't said, but his profession was. As someone who is a friend with someone that experienced something akin to Ford, the name was never said just the general description of who they were. So again, its not hard evidence and totally biased on my past, but its what I homed in on the most.

I will say over the next week, it will be interesting to see what the FBI turns up.
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Re: Official News topic

Postby eabaker » Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:11 pm

Greyshot151 wrote:As someone who is a friend with someone that experienced something akin to Ford, the name was never said just the general description of who they were.


Yeah, it is not at all unusual for a victim of assault (sexual or otherwise) to be not just unwilling, but functionally unable to say the name of their assaulter for years afterward; sometimes it's a big breakthrough moment when they can say it and move on from that stage.
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Re: Official News topic

Postby Spirit Ghidorah 2010 » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:43 am

KManX89 wrote:FBI is allowed to criminally prosecute Brett Kavanaugh for lying under oath to Senate.

The guy who claims he doesn't know Ford despite her dating one of his closest friends at the time, conveniently points to a calendar with all the names she named on it and lied about Keyser refuting her account on top of all his uncovered yearbook lies under oath can now be prosecuted or perjury ON TOP of the rape investigation (remember, there are no statue of limitations for rape/sexual assault in Maryland, so he can be criminally-prosecuted for that as well as being investigated).

Uh oh. Not looking too good for Cosbynaugh.

And it seems Trump gave them "free reign" on Twitter. First of all, I hope Rosenstein or Wrey can actually confirm this, because I'm taking that claim with a truckload of salt. And secondly, considering how his Twitter is considered official government communications...does this mean the FBI will be allowed to defend themselves when he rebukes them for "stepping out of bounds"?

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Re: Official News topic

Postby Gawdziller1954 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:14 pm

Brett Kavanaugh confirmed for supreme court: https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/06/politics ... index.html
OH NO, IT'S GAWDZILLER!! :D

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Re: Official News topic

Postby MechaGoji Bro7503 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:22 pm

NASA just gave Godzilla his own constellation!!!!!!!
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... Kh&ampcf=1

SpaceGodzilla confirmed for everything!!!!! :lol:
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Re: Official News topic

Postby Dv-218 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:04 am

MechaGoji Bro7503 wrote:NASA just gave Godzilla his own constellation!!!!!!!
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... Kh&ampcf=1

SpaceGodzilla confirmed for everything!!!!! :lol:


Whoa, this is skreeonking awesome. I honestly thought it was a joke at first untill I read the article. Looks like Godzilla achieved a literal star level of popularity :lol:

Now where's that Ghidorah black hole at tho.

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Re: Official News topic

Postby kingkevzilla88 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:14 am

MechaGoji Bro7503 wrote:NASA just gave Godzilla his own constellation!!!!!!!
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... Kh&ampcf=1

SpaceGodzilla confirmed for everything!!!!! :lol:


Cool!

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Re: Official News topic

Postby Maritonic » Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:12 am

Potentially explosive "devices" found at the homes of the Clintons, Obamas, Time-Warner Building, CNN Building and The White House.
Last edited by Maritonic on Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Official News topic

Postby Spirit Ghidorah 2010 » Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:15 am

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Re: Official News topic

Postby Maritonic » Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:23 am

Think I misspoke; White House is incorrect, but one was sent to CNN.
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goji89 wrote:So.......are we gonna Kinkshame the skreeonking birds or what?

MandaSaurus wrote:I think a lot of you here don't exactly know what LOGIC actually means.

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Re: Official News topic

Postby Zarm » Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:52 am

Oh, no. The last thing we need is someone reviving the unabomber shtick; it's way too immitatable.

And politically-targeted, no less. How much more violence is it going to take before both sides realize something drastic is needed to reconcile this polarization before we tear ourselves apart? :(
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Re: Official News topic

Postby UltramanGoji » Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:53 am

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Re: Official News topic

Postby ApexOversteer » Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:54 am

Maritonic wrote:Think I misspoke; White House is incorrect, but one was sent to CNN.


White House "device" was reported, then retracted.
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Re: Official News topic

Postby Maritonic » Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:19 am

Two more devices. Brings the total now to 12.
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goji89 wrote:So.......are we gonna Kinkshame the skreeonking birds or what?

MandaSaurus wrote:I think a lot of you here don't exactly know what LOGIC actually means.


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