What Gets On Your Nerves 2, The Thread Without a Witty Subtitle!

[GigaBowserG]

You know, being a guy that doesn't like The Last Jedi, Infinity War, Star Trek Discovery, and Shin Godzilla in a world where a majority seem to view them as the best of their genres is just a tad *frustrating.* I wish I was better at not letting it annoy me.

But I did realize a common thread. In each case, it is less that I am annoyed over someone liking someone I don't (that doesn't bother me), but rather seeing them lack some essential quality that makes the franchise click for me, yet seeing them elevated over *other* entries that DO fully embody those qualities for me. In other words, its not the praise of what I don't care for so much as the comparative lack of praise accorded to something else I DO find laudable. It's less a tear-down of the new (a negative) and more a desiring-more-respect-for-the-old (a theoretically-positive) impulse at its core.

I don't know if that makes any difference to anyone. But it is an interesting epiphany to me. At least I know *why* it drives me so crazy, when I couldn't care less if a lot of people like, say, Harry Potter or Avatar. So that's cathartic, even if it's annoying that I can't simply turn off that part of my brain as easily as I'd like to.

I can absolutely relate. I suppose for the easy target, there's a particular Discord group I'm in where I can't bring up a civil discussion of Bagan, yet Godzilla 1998 - the monster/movie that about destroyed Godzilla's reputation in the US - constantly garners sympathy. It's extremely frustrating to see people I respect not willing to be open about certain monsters or movies, instead using them as the butt-end of jokes as if they're a disgrace to the living. Some days it feels like I can't enjoy my own interests openly without worrying about what sort of punchline it'll be used for.

...yet this is still not as bad as what I experienced in the Smash Bros. community, so there's that

[Zarm]

What does the Smash Bros. community get persnickety about?

[GigaBowserG]

What does the Smash Bros. community get persnickety about?

I can only hope things have changed in the last few years. But when Mewtwo is confirmed for Smash 4 DLC and one of the first things people do is go to war with each other over whether he should have a "male" VA (movie 1) or a "female" VA (movie 16), that's too fucking far. Can't even escape it in unrelated topics without stirring drama.

And of course the division between mostly Brawl, Melee, and Smash 4 fans over which is the best. And the people who have to constantly remind you which is their favorite and why the others are trash

[Spirit Ghidorah 2010]

You know, being a guy that doesn't like The Last Jedi, Infinity War, Star Trek Discovery, and Shin Godzilla in a world where a majority seem to view them as the best of their genres is just a tad *frustrating.* I wish I was better at not letting it annoy me.

At least you weren't attacked for your opinion.

Try being someone who didn't like G'14 when it first came out

[Zarm]

Sorry to hear that! I've definitely seen that same thing happening in the Star Trek and Star Wars circles, so I know how vicious fandoms can be. Much as I may complain about my aggravations here, honestly, this is the most civil fan base I've ever been involved in when it comes to diverging opinions (except, apparently, in 2014). So I know I'm quite fortunate in that regard.

[Spuro]

Sorry to hear that! I've definitely seen that same thing happening in the Star Trek and Star Wars circles, so I know how vicious fandoms can be. Much as I may complain about my aggravations here, honestly, this is the most civil fan base I've ever been involved in when it comes to diverging opinions (except, apparently, in 2014). So I know I'm quite fortunate in that regard.

I can't speak for Star Trek, but the Star Wars fanbase is particularly bad. When you dare to confess that you enjoyed any of the prequels, that fandom makes Sonic's looks like saints. It's nearly as bad when any discussion of the sequels – good or bad – crops up.

Shin also causes a lot of headaches. Speaking as someone who actually enjoyed the movie, Shin fans can be fucking obnoxious towards detractors, and it's really lowered my opinion of that film as a whole.

[Zarm]

Sorry to hear that! I've definitely seen that same thing happening in the Star Trek and Star Wars circles, so I know how vicious fandoms can be. Much as I may complain about my aggravations here, honestly, this is the most civil fan base I've ever been involved in when it comes to diverging opinions (except, apparently, in 2014). So I know I'm quite fortunate in that regard.

I can't speak for Star Trek, but the Star Wars fanbase is particularly bad. When you dare to confess that you enjoyed any of the prequels, that fandom makes Sonic's looks like saints. It's nearly as bad when any discussion of the sequels – good or bad – crops up.

Shin also causes a lot of headaches. Speaking as someone who actually enjoyed the movie, Shin fans can be skreeonking obnoxious towards detractors, and it's really lowered my opinion of that film as a whole.

Don't forget your stance on Legends/the EU vs. new canon, and the Clone Wars cartoon series. Yeah, I don't know what happened to poor old Star Wars; it used to be so civil.

But then, I think both Trek and Wars (especially with the newest entries) are both tied up in modern contentious social issues- and as always, discussions of politics inflame faster than anything else. So those fanbases have been carried on a tide of left vs. right vitriol. At least with Shin, the only politics are foreign to the majority of the English-speaking audience, and not particularly contentious regardless.

[Spuro]

Don't forget your stance on Legends/the EU vs. new canon, and the Clone Wars cartoon series. Yeah, I don't know what happened to poor old Star Wars; it used to be so civil.

But then, I think both Trek and Wars (especially with the newest entries) are both tied up in modern contentious social issues- and as always, discussions of politics inflame faster than anything else. So those fanbases have been carried on a tide of left vs. right vitriol. At least with Shin, the only politics are foreign to the majority of the English-speaking audience, and not particularly contentious regardless.

I actually think the politics of the sequels are being projected onto them by the fans more than anything in the films themselves. For the most part, I think there's a fairly vocal Alt-Right group claiming that the new movies are "ESJAYDOUBLEYOO" propaganda due the casting of people of color or women, but I don't think that holds up when you analyze the films themselves. Even the much derided Casino Planet subplot of TLJ was more of a message about war profiteering than capitalism.

Which I suppose leads to another thing about the Star Wars fandom that's gotten on my nerves recently: that Alt-Right presence that's all but taken over the online fandom. Star Wars has suddenly become not only toxic, but really misogynistic, and it makes me uncomfortable. A good example is the Poe and Holdo controversy: Both are flawed individuals who thought they were doing the right thing, but butted heads and ultimately made terrible mistakes that got people killed. Yet more often than not I've seen people shoulder 100% of the blame on Holdo, simply because she's a "pink haired man-hating feminazi" or whatever.

[Spirit Ghidorah 2010]

Which I suppose leads to another thing about the Star Wars fandom that's gotten on my nerves recently: that Alt-Right presence that's all but taken over the online fandom. Star Wars has suddenly become not only toxic, but really misogynistic, and it makes me uncomfortable. A good example is the Poe and Holdo controversy: Both are flawed individuals who thought they were doing the right thing, but butted heads and ultimately made terrible mistakes that got people killed. Yet more often than not I've seen people shoulder 100% of the blame on Holdo, simply because she's a "pink haired man-hating feminazi" or whatever.

On top of that, because of the presence of Rey and Finn, I noticed the alt-right accusing the newer movies (as well as Disney as a whole) of "pandering to the SJWs", despite the fact that black people and women filled prominent roles in Star Wars movies since the OT.

[Zarm]

I actually think the politics of the sequels are being projected onto them by the fans more than anything in the films themselves. For the most part, I think there's a fairly vocal Alt-Right group claiming that the new movies are "ESJAYDOUBLEYOO" propaganda due the casting of people of color or women, but I don't think that holds up when you analyze the films themselves. Even the much derided Casino Planet subplot of TLJ was more of a message about war profiteering than capitalism.

I agree! I think it is a complete projection; but people still argue vociferously over it because of what they have read into it. But I concur that an analysis of the films themselves really doesn't bear out the politics people are claiming to see in them!

Which I suppose leads to another thing about the Star Wars fandom that's gotten on my nerves recently: that Alt-Right presence that's all but taken over the online fandom. Star Wars has suddenly become not only toxic, but really misogynistic, and it makes me uncomfortable. A good example is the Poe and Holdo controversy: Both are flawed individuals who thought they were doing the right thing, but butted heads and ultimately made terrible mistakes that got people killed. Yet more often than not I've seen people shoulder 100% of the blame on Holdo, simply because she's a "pink haired man-hating feminazi" or whatever.

I... probably shouldn't get into this. I have very strong opinions on Poe and Holdo,

Spoiler:

and I do place 100% of the blame on her... but only because she inexplicably didn't tell anyone that a plan existed- not the details, mind you, but just confirming that there was a plan- when there was pre-existing evidence of catastrophically low morale. (And actually, Rose and Finn share the blame, as they screwed up twice- by double-parking what they knew was their getaway vehicle and stupidly getting themselves arrested, and by then by bringing BB-8 along in a bad, suspicion-causing disguise). Poe's the only one who did not actually affect anything to do with the Resistance's destruction; just like with the bomber pilots killed earlier (when Leia was in charge, and actually launched the bombers/didn't countermand them), he doesn't actually have the agency in any of the situations where he is blamed for something. Like, if Poe had sat on his hands the whole time in both situations, they would have turned out exactly identical; he had exactly 0% involvement in anything that got anyone killed*. So actually, I'd give Holdo 60%, Finn & Rose 40%, and Poe 0%.

...Buuuuuut, that is a rabbit-trail. Because I agree that making it a 'feminism' issue is just absurd, and blaming either side because of their gender politics is just... ridiculous. It has nothing to do with anything. That's not what any of the conflict is about.

Likewise, this vocal alt-right nonsense has really poisoned the well on all sides. It's introduced this toxic dialogue into the fanbase, for those that dislike the movie for actual script and character reasons, we know have to fight to separate our basic position (not liking the film) from their rhetoric and associations, and for those that do like the movie, it's given the impression that any dissent over the movie is based solely on those illegitimate reasons, lessening any desire for rational discourse (at least, if my Facebook community is any indication; my brother-in-law and I ended up in a huge fight, for instance, over his mocking all TLJ-haters as misogynists, because those were the only comments he was seeing; it had a ripple-on effect that ended up causing conflict between all three sides).



*Arguably except that DJ wouldn't have heard about transports over the comlink, but there was no way whatsoever for him to know an untrustworthy person was sitting in the cockpit with Finn and Rose! Plus, DJ never overheard about the cloaking shields, which he later magically knew about to tell the First Order, because bad scriptwriting.

Added in 8 minutes 39 seconds:

On top of that, because of the presence of Rey and Finn, I noticed the alt-right accusing the newer movies (as well as Disney as a whole) of "pandering to the SJWs", despite the fact that black people and women filled prominent roles in Star Wars movies since the OT.

Exactly! But I think Rey has also become wrapped up in the same politicking; some see her as a strong female role model for young girls, others as a very thinly drawn character lacking dimension, flaws, or believability. But because of the alt-right rhetoric, the left seems to see any criticism of Rey whatsoever as an attack on women in movies in general, while the right seems to see any defense of Rey whatsoever as a social-politic-agenda-driven willful blindness to obvious flaws... and with both sides reading an agenda into the other's position that isn't there, the narrative has become, on the right, 'they're pandering to SJWs (evidence: they're defending a character without merit, so politics is their only motivation)', and on the left, 'they're all misogynists (evidence: misogynistic rhetoric from some corners along with criticism of Rey; criticism of Rey from many corners- thus, misogyny from many corners!)'

So I think the status of Rey as (arguably) a poorly-written (hence widely criticized), yet charismatically-portrayed (hence widely loved) significant cultural icon in a touchstone series (which has coincidentally released three movies in a row with a female lead, and also coincidentally shabbily treated two legacy leads from the OT and one new lead, all of whom happen to be male) has just led to people attaching a lot of loaded significance to people cast in roles that is not intended. A series of unfortunate narrative coincidences and highly-polarized opinions over a character for understandable reasons on both sides have got people building a shadow-narrative and imparting imagined motivations on all sides, when there are really alternate explanations for why 'the other side' feels the way it does that having nothing to do with politics or agendas.

[BlankAccount]

You know, being a guy that doesn't like The Last Jedi, Infinity War, Star Trek Discovery, and Shin Godzilla in a world where a majority seem to view them as the best of their genres is just a tad *frustrating.* I wish I was better at not letting it annoy me.

At least you weren't attacked for your opinion.

Try being someone who didn't like G'14 when it first came out

Or indifferent. For some people just finding the movie okay but flawed is worse than outright loving it or hating it.

Added in 24 minutes 51 seconds:

I can absolutely relate. I suppose for the easy target, there's a particular Discord group I'm in where I can't bring up a civil discussion of Bagan, yet Godzilla 1998 - the monster/movie that about destroyed Godzilla's reputation in the US - constantly garners sympathy. It's extremely frustrating to see people I respect not willing to be open about certain monsters or movies, instead using them as the butt-end of jokes as if they're a disgrace to the living. Some days it feels like I can't enjoy my own interests openly without worrying about what sort of punchline it'll be used for.

...yet this is still not as bad as what I experienced in the Smash Bros. community, so there's that

Yeah fuck that noise, I'd rather talk about Bagan, I don't even hate G'98 anymore, it's just a sad chapter in the past and we finally have an American movie that respects the franchise going on to hopefully two+ more American films. It's the GINO fanboys I hate, Christ they won't stop harassing me. It's less I can't understand how any Godzilla fan can like that movie and more of they can't understand how any Godzilla fan doesn't like that movie and keep trying to convince me to change my mind.

Godzilla 98, GINO or Zilla or whatever the fuck you wanna call him is not gonna get another movie where he's the main character, the 98 movie already got it's sequel, the fucking cartoon and Godzilla acts more like, well, Godzilla. He's not getting another movie, they should just be glad he got what he did, mentions and cameos in GMK, GFW, roles in the IDW comics and anime prequel novels and playable in a few games. It's like they want him to replace the classic Godzilla, you know the character that has 63+ years worth of history behind it. To paraphrase what they love to say to others who dislike the 98 film, "it's been 20 years, he's not getting another staring role film, get over it."

They should be glad he got what he did after the 98 debacle, he could have been just ignored and left in the past like CDI Link. It's not like I even think the monster himself is lame, it works as another monster, just not as Godzilla.

End rant.

[Spirit Ghidorah 2010]

Or indifferent. For some people just finding the movie okay but flawed is worse than outright loving it or hating it.

I started off thinking the movie was just fine, but after getting inundated with every iteration of "You're an entitled Michael Bay fanboy with low IQ Down's Syndrome and should be banned from the fandom, posthumanism" my opinion quickly soured due to its association with such a wonderful and endearing fanbase.

[Spuro]

Or indifferent. For some people just finding the movie okay but flawed is worse than outright loving it or hating it.

I started off thinking the movie was just fine, but after getting inundated with every iteration of "You're an entitled Michael Bay fanboy with low IQ Down's Syndrome and should be banned from the fandom, posthumanism" my opinion quickly soured due to its association with such a wonderful and endearing fanbase.

That's my exact issue with Shin Godzilla. I liked the movie. I *want* to like the movie. But so many Shin fans act so smug and entitled about the movie and rudely mock anyone who dares criticize it, and I've found myself beginning to despise Shin Godzilla as a result.

[Godzillian]

Or indifferent. For some people just finding the movie okay but flawed is worse than outright loving it or hating it.

I started off thinking the movie was just fine, but after getting inundated with every iteration of "You're an entitled Michael Bay fanboy with low IQ Down's Syndrome and should be banned from the fandom, posthumanism" my opinion quickly soured due to its association with such a wonderful and endearing fanbase.

That's my exact issue with Shin Godzilla. I liked the movie. I *want* to like the movie. But so many Shin fans act so smug and entitled about the movie and rudely mock anyone who dares criticize it, and I've found myself beginning to despise Shin Godzilla as a result.

Disliking Shin because of rude fans is childish

[Mr_Goji_and_Watch]

I started off thinking the movie was just fine, but after getting inundated with every iteration of "You're an entitled Michael Bay fanboy with low IQ Down's Syndrome and should be banned from the fandom, posthumanism" my opinion quickly soured due to its association with such a wonderful and endearing fanbase.

Gatorzilla was so awful lol

[Jomei]

Imagine being so emotional that you stop liking a movie because someone disagrees with you on an internet forum.

It gets on my nerves when people can't handle vociferous disagreement and banter--or worse, try to construe criticism of their claims as somehow depriving them of the right to an opinion.

[Zarm]

Guys, this is... kind of embodying what he's talking about. Why is it necessary to talk down and sneer about someone else's feeling that people talking down and sneering is off-putting for the thing they're aggressively advocating? Why is there a need for such aggressive, angry defense of a movie? Why is someone else's disliking of it any business of yours to criticize? He hasn't called any of your reasons for liking it 'childish.' He hasn't mocked your reaction to opposition- even though one could easily say 'imagine being so emotional that seeing someone saying fan behavior to Shin Godzilla is offputting that you have to insult their emotional maturity'. Yet you've both insulted him, and mocked him. For saying that Shin fans tend to insult or mock those that disagree with them.

(And personally, I don't think all do. But clearly some.)

[Spuro]

Guys, this is... kind of embodying what he's talking about. Why is it necessary to talk down and sneer about someone else's feeling that people talking down and sneering is off-putting for the thing they're aggressively advocating? Why is there a need for such aggressive, angry defense of a movie? Why is someone else's disliking of it any business of yours to criticize? He hasn't called any of your reasons for liking it 'childish.' He hasn't mocked your reaction to opposition- even though one could easily say 'imagine being so emotional that seeing someone saying fan behavior to Shin Godzilla is offputting that you have to insult their emotional maturity'. Yet you've both insulted him, and mocked him. For saying that Shin fans tend to insult or mock those that disagree with them.

(And personally, I don't think all do. But clearly some.)

Not to mention the exact same things were being said about Godzilla 2014 and nobody batted an eye.

[Jomei]

Actually, Spirit Ghidorah mocked my defense of Godzilla 2014 (explaining how some critics have argued the film takes a "posthumanist" approach, de-emphasizing the importance of humanity in narrative) in his post. He's done this for years. He can mock if he likes. I'd be more interested in a counter-argument.

The point is not whether people dislike my or anyone else's posts or thinks they're too aggressive or whatever. It's the fragility that would make them stop liking a movie because of said posts. Sorry, but if that's the case, I do think you're too sensitive or maybe too invested in what others say.

[Spirit Ghidorah 2010]

Imagine being so emotional that you stop liking a movie because someone disagrees with you on an internet forum.

wut

I don't dislike G'14 because people disagreed with me (I wouldn't like ANY movie if that were the case). I dislike it because, among dozens of other reasons, its fanbase is also shitty.

But sure, if you'd like, we can just play it off as me being "emotional". Of all the things I've been called for disliking the movie, "emotional" is actually pretty nice.