The Paleontology Thread

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Gerdzerl
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Re: The Paleontology Thread

Post by Gerdzerl »

Inferno Rodan wrote:
Gerdzerl wrote:TREY the Explainer sums up the whole "T. Rex feather debacle" thing pretty well in these two vids.
That Emus vs Kangaroos study is so dumb and doesn't apply in the least to the problems faced by a large animal with integument, yet every single supporter of feathered Rexes cites it. Shielding from outside heat is completely different from insulating body heat. Big animals don't really give a damn about the former, it's the latter they have problems with. And feathers do, in fact, insulate body heat. So yes, it remains stupid for a giant animal like a Tyrannosaurus living in a warm climate like Cretaceous North America to have a significant covering of feathers.
Someone I know wrote:The study clearly showed that emu feathers are more effective for thermoregulation in extremely hot environments than the kangaroo's fur, so arguing that feathers are somehow not good for that purpose is fallacious. This response also ignores the very different physiologies of large theropods compared to modern giant mammals, specifically that theropods have much larger surface areas, huge mouths to vent heat from, different metabolic rates, the fact that most giant modern mammals constantly have fermenting plants in their guts, which produce a lot of extra heat on their own, and also that dinosaurian respiratory systems are insanely good at expelling heat due to their extensive air sac systems. Couple that with the completely different thermodynamic properties of feathers as compared with hair, and basically all the reasons that a large coelurosaur might completely lose its feathers disappear. Also, the Hell Creek ecosystem wasn't particularly hot. It was mostly temperate.

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Re: The Paleontology Thread

Post by NSZ »

That first video honestly lost some credibility points when it presented Concavenator as an example of a feathered dino when the evidence so far seems to be leaning, rather heavily, into the "not feathered" camp.
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Re: The Paleontology Thread

Post by Cybermat47 »

Do you guys think that Epanterias was it's own genus, an Allosaurus Amplexus, or a large Allosaurus Fragilis?
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Re: The Paleontology Thread

Post by Inferno Rodan »

Gerdzerl wrote:
Someone I know wrote:The study clearly showed that emu feathers are more effective for thermoregulation in extremely hot environments than the kangaroo's fur, so arguing that feathers are somehow not good for that purpose is fallacious. This response also ignores the very different physiologies of large theropods compared to modern giant mammals, specifically that theropods have much larger surface areas, huge mouths to vent heat from, different metabolic rates, the fact that most giant modern mammals constantly have fermenting plants in their guts, which produce a lot of extra heat on their own, and also that dinosaurian respiratory systems are insanely good at expelling heat due to their extensive air sac systems. Couple that with the completely different thermodynamic properties of feathers as compared with hair, and basically all the reasons that a large coelurosaur might completely lose its feathers disappear. Also, the Hell Creek ecosystem wasn't particularly hot. It was mostly temperate.
Most of those advantages over giant mammals are kinda balanced out by the fact that Tyrannosaurus is, y'know, a lot bigger than them.

And the temperate climate thing is pretty silly, and I think its common use in this discussion largely stems from misunderstanding of what the term means. Technically speaking, it's just the general term for climates in regions between the Tropic of Cancer and the Arctic Circle in the northern hemisphere, and the Tropic of Capricorn and the Antarctic Circle in the southern hemisphere. That's HUGE range of climates. Florida is considered to have a temperate climate. Most of Australia falls into the range as well, as does northern freaking Africa. And given the fact that a huge chunk of Cretaceous North America was covered by a warm, shallow sea, I think Florida would actually probably be a pretty good parallel for the climate Tyrannosaurus lived in.

And for the record, I'm not saying Tyrannosaurus was entirely bald. That would just be silly to think at this point. All I'm saying is that whatever feathers it did have would have been either sparse and filamentous (i.e. on the nape and tail for signaling) or, if a significant amount of its surface was covered, extremely short to the point of barely being noticeable.

http://orig13.deviantart.net/2cbd/f/201 ... a5uluk.jpg
http://orig12.deviantart.net/8bdf/f/201 ... 7eyfbd.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/or ... d0511b.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/or ... 7ab89a.jpg

The first two make sense (I particularly love the TSL Rex). The latter two are pants-on-head ridiculous featherwankery.
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Re: The Paleontology Thread

Post by Tyrant_Lizard_King »

I'd imagine Rex had some sort of feathers on the arms for signaling or mating displays, stuff like that. But you're right the last 2 pics are going a little overboard. For a Rex anyhow.
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Re: The Paleontology Thread

Post by Jiragozira14 »

NSZ wrote:That first video honestly lost some credibility points when it presented Concavenator as an example of a feathered dino when the evidence so far seems to be leaning, rather heavily, into the "not feathered" camp.
There was a study at SVP last November that seemed to indicate that the ulna marks are quill knobs, but that's not published yet.
Inferno Rodan wrote: Most of those advantages over giant mammals are kinda balanced out by the fact that Tyrannosaurus is, y'know, a lot bigger than them.
Tyrannosaurus also has a much larger surface area to radiate heat then large mammals tend to have. Plus, feathers, even those of a filamentous nature, are known to be better at heating and cooling animals then fur, so using large mammals like elephants to compare to large dinosaurs is a bad argument for T.rex having a sparse coat. Giraffes are closer; but even then, they aren't as efficient as dinosaurs at thermoregulation.
And given the fact that a huge chunk of Cretaceous North America was covered by a warm, shallow sea, I think Florida would actually probably be a pretty good parallel for the climate Tyrannosaurus lived in.
Maybe it is, but size isn't a preclusion to having a decent amount of integument. We have 30-foot dinosaurs with near-complete coverings of feathers from decently similar climates, after all.

In terms of artistic representations; as of current, the T.rex from Saurian is the closest to the current evidence, even with the frustratingly-vague Bell paper in mind;
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Re: The Paleontology Thread

Post by Inferno Rodan »

Jiragozira14 wrote:Tyrannosaurus also has a much larger surface area to radiate heat then large mammals tend to have. Plus, feathers, even those of a filamentous nature, are known to be better at heating and cooling animals then fur, so using large mammals like elephants to compare to large dinosaurs is a bad argument for T.rex having a sparse coat. Giraffes are closer; but even then, they aren't as efficient as dinosaurs at thermoregulation.
And again, Tyrannosaurus is a far larger creature to balance out its greater surface area. If it was the same size, you'd have a point. But Tyrannosaurus is several tons heavier than any giant mammal that isn't/wasn't practically bald.
Maybe it is, but size isn't a preclusion to having a decent amount of integument. We have 30-foot dinosaurs with near-complete coverings of feathers from decently similar climates, after all.
Average annual temperature of 50 F is hardly what I'd consider "decently similar."
In terms of artistic representations; as of current, the T.rex from Saurian is the closest to the current evidence, even with the frustratingly-vague Bell paper in mind;
Too damn fluffy.
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Re: The Paleontology Thread

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Inferno Rodan wrote:
And the temperate climate thing is pretty silly, and I think its common use in this discussion largely stems from misunderstanding of what the term means. Technically speaking, it's just the general term for climates in regions between the Tropic of Cancer and the Arctic Circle in the northern hemisphere, and the Tropic of Capricorn and the Antarctic Circle in the southern hemisphere. That's HUGE range of climates. Florida is considered to have a temperate climate. Most of Australia falls into the range as well, as does northern freaking Africa. And given the fact that a huge chunk of Cretaceous North America was covered by a warm, shallow sea, I think Florida would actually probably be a pretty good parallel for the climate Tyrannosaurus lived in.

And for the record, I'm not saying Tyrannosaurus was entirely bald. That would just be silly to think at this point. All I'm saying is that whatever feathers it did have would have been either sparse and filamentous (i.e. on the nape and tail for signaling) or, if a significant amount of its surface was covered, extremely short to the point of barely being noticeable.

http://orig13.deviantart.net/2cbd/f/201 ... a5uluk.jpg
http://orig12.deviantart.net/8bdf/f/201 ... 7eyfbd.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/or ... d0511b.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/or ... 7ab89a.jpg

The first two make sense (I particularly love the TSL Rex). The latter two are pants-on-head ridiculous featherwankery.
The last two aren't Tyrannosaurus, the king of the dinosaurs. They are actually pictures of a closely related species- Trannysaurus, the drag queen of the dinosaurs.

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Re: The Paleontology Thread

Post by Kaijunator »

Why do we put names of dinosaurs in italics? I've never understood why.
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Re: The Paleontology Thread

Post by JAGzilla »

^ It's because they're scientific names, just like Canis familiaris for the domestic dog, or Elephas maximus for the Asian elephant, or what have you. Dinosaurs don't generally get what are called common names, but are just known by their scientific names, and those are traditionally italicized no matter what type of animal we're dealing with.
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Re: The Paleontology Thread

Post by Jiragozira14 »

And keep in mind, these T.rex scales look like this;
Image

Where else have I seen those types of scales?
Image

They''re almost certainly reticula; which are secondarily derived from feathers. So even if T.rex was mostly covered in these, that's still not "true" scales, like those of snakes and lizards.
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Re: The Paleontology Thread

Post by Inferno Rodan »

Jiragozira14 wrote:They''re almost certainly reticula; which are secondarily derived from feathers. So even if T.rex was mostly covered in these, that's still not "true" scales, like those of snakes and lizards.
They look the same as every other dinosaur skin impression that's been found, so unless you're suggesting things like hadrosaurs, sauropods, and ankylosaurs didn't have "true" scales either, I really don't see your point here aside from just grasping at straws and looking for a loophole to not call dinosaurs scaly.


Unrelated:

I've said my piece on this in the past (though I don't think in this thread), but seeing it in the Saurian demo triggered me again: The Raptor Prey Restraint theory for dromaeosaurs is completely stupid and doesn't make any actual sense on numerous levels.

First, the entire premise behind why it was thought up in the first place is... deeply flawed, to put it nicely. From what I remember, it was basically used to explain how flapping developed in birds as well as provide an explanation for how dromaeosaurs killed prey because they were "poorly equipped" to do so otherwise. I don't think I even need to explain how flat-out stupid the second half of that is. The flapping part is just as problematic. Aside from the fact that powered flight via flapping developed independently in two other vertebrate groups (pterosaurs and bats) without being a method of maintaining balance while restraining prey, there's two other big issues with it. The most blatant is that birds were around before dromaeosaurs. The second is that the earliest dromaeosaurs were small tree dwellers that wouldn't have needed to hunt that way in the first place because they would have eaten bugs and small lizards and such.

Secondly, it doesn't make sense from a mechanical standpoint. Contrary to what the paper proposing the theory suggests, dromaeosaur feet simply aren't built like those of modern birds of prey. Yes, dromaeosaurs could indeed flex their toes to grasp very small prey items like lizards and small mammals. They could not, however, use them to grip prey of any decent size like what would require the "ride to exhaustion" technique of the RPR theory. The reason modern birds of prey can do this is because 1) they have four toes which articulate in opposition to each other and 2) all four of said toes have long, sharp claws designed for piercing. Dromaeosaur feet had neither of these adaptations. Without the fourth toe to work in opposition to the other three, the toes would be unable to securely grip an object or animal larger than what those three toes could fully envelop. On top of that, only one of the three usable toes of a dromaeosaur's foot had a claw designed for piercing. So if a dromaeosaur leapt onto the back of a prey item large enough to struggle against its body weight and attempted to ride out said struggling, it would promptly lose its grip and probably fall flat on its face. Not only would it only have a total of two claws to pierce the prey instead of the eight of a modern bird of prey, but those two claws wouldn't even be able to pierce as deeply in the first place because of the aforementioned lack of opposing force from other toes.

Thirdly, it doesn't fit with the physiology of the rest of the dromaeosaur body. Specifically the hand claws. The hand claws of most dromaeosaurs are comparable in size to their famed sickle claws. And yet this theory proposes that they were used for... absolutely nothing? That's pretty absurd. Not only would it be wasteful to not make use of these claws, but their presence would be flat-out detrimental to the RPR method. Birds lost their hand claws for a reason: they make flapping harder because they add weight to the wing.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, we have direct fossil evidence of a dromaeosaur not utilizing this method while attacking a large prey item. Now I'm not saying that situation was a typical one by any means. The fact that the Protoceratops had the Velociraptor's arm in its mouth is proof enough that the hunt hadn't gone as intended. But it goes back to my previous point. The fossil clearly shows the Velociraptor using its hands to grip onto the Protoceratops and using only its sickle claw to stab while the other two toes on its foot are curled back out of the way. Furthermore, the fact that its arm is in the Protoceratops's mouth is evidence that it was using its hands offensively, because if it was just using them to flap to maintain balance, its arm wouldn't have been anywhere near the Protoceratops's mouth in the first place.

So yeah. Basically nothing about the Raptor Prey Restraint theory makes any sense, and there's no actual evidence to support it in any way. Why it's gained so much support in the paleontological community genuinely baffles me.
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Re: The Paleontology Thread

Post by Omegamorph »

Gonna chime in on the T.rex feathers thing

All of those skin patches have been known for years by paleontologists, what you see just about everywhere right now is basically this. The paper itself even says:
Image


Patches of scaly skin on certain parts of the body -- and small ones at that-- do not provide the full body covering, just portions of it. Based on phylogenetic bracketing Tyrannosaurus and its close relatives most likely had a form of feather covering, just not as extensive as Yutyrannus's as evidenced by the skin patches that show scales in parts of the body that were feathered in Yutyrannus. For the record, this chart shows WHERE the patches were on the animal, and to scale:

Image


Theropods like modern birds had three areas of integument: scales, naked skin, feathers (+ reticulata which are the small scales on birds feet and the scutes on the toes, both derivates of ancestral feathers). There's plenty of examples of modern birds with the three areas well evidenced and with the three integument types coexisting in the same area of the body -- ostrich, cassowary, marabou stork, vulture, etc you name it. The same is true for certain theropods (Kulindadromeus).

Overheating was also not an issue for Tyrannosaurus because it didn't live in that hot a climate and feathers are designed to compensate for that. With that said yes, there is the possibility that Tyrannosaurus lost an extensive feather covering in favour of elephant-like sparse covering, but there's hardly confirmation of that hypothesis. Clues and proof are not synonimous.

All this pressuring towards T.rex being wholly scaly is just denial to accept the new more scientifically accurate view of these animals at large. I get the fact that a scaly dragon from aeons past is a cooler idea and the Jurassic Park version is sexy as hell but these aren't movie monsters/characters, they're not dragons or power fantasies, they're animals and they don't follow our sense of aesthetic they follow whatever the fuck they were selected to be. Until there is proof that T.rex's feather covering was secundarily lost or evolved into sparse filamentous feathers like elephant hairs, the scientific consensus is still that it had a partial feather covering.


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Re: The Paleontology Thread

Post by Gerdzerl »

Found some nice, non-shrinkwrapped depictions of Entelodonts:

http://img01.deviantart.net/59b6/i/2016 ... amboqr.jpg

https://68.media.tumblr.com/2063fa066ac ... o1_500.png

https://68.media.tumblr.com/be0fa332e08 ... 9_1280.png

http://img12.deviantart.net/cc02/i/2016 ... ajrpya.jpg

http://img00.deviantart.net/e256/i/2016 ... 9naetw.jpg

I enjoy the traditional, more reptilian/fantasy-creature looking versions too, but it's nice to see some actually mammalian-looking depictions for once.

Oh, and for those not already aware, Entelodonts aren't considered to be pigs or pig relatives anymore, they're now thought to be relatives of hippos and whales.
Last edited by Gerdzerl on Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Paleontology Thread

Post by Tyrant_Lizard_King »

Gerdzerl wrote: Oh, and for those not already aware, Entelodonts aren't considered to be pigs or pig relatives anymore, they're now though to be relatives of hippos and whales.
Yeah I can see that. Makes sense to me.
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Re: The Paleontology Thread

Post by Inferno Rodan »

Gerdzerl wrote:Oh, and for those not already aware, Entelodonts aren't considered to be pigs or pig relatives anymore, they're now thought to be relatives of hippos and whales.
Yeah, but let's face it: Hell Pig sounds waaaaay cooler than Hell Hippo.

On that note, though, is there any reason Andrewsarchus hasn't been reclassified as a full-on Entelodont at this point? I mean, all we have of it is a skull, and said skull looks pretty indistinguishable from an Entelodont as far as I'm aware.
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Re: The Paleontology Thread

Post by GodzillaFan1990's »

Inferno Rodan wrote:Yeah, but let's face it: Hell Pig sounds waaaaay cooler than Hell Hippo.
Dude! Hippos are skreeonking scary! They're mean buggers and probably the most but if not one of the most dangerous animals you'd want to encounter. Don't let their "cute" cuddling appearance that media tends to portray them fool you nor their "overweight" and stubby legs as they can actually easily outrun you. :shock:

Considering their reputation, I'm honestly surprised a horror movie hasn't been done on one yet...

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Re: The Paleontology Thread

Post by JAGzilla »

I took Tyrant_Lizard_King's recommendation and ordered The Princeton Field Guide to Dinosaurs, and it got here today. The introductory first few pages already taught me a few things, or reminded me of things I'd forgotten, so it looks to have been a good suggestion. Thanks!
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Re: The Paleontology Thread

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You're welcome! :)
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Re: The Paleontology Thread

Post by Jiragozira14 »

Chris55 wrote:
JVM wrote:Bagan should come back, but not in a movie.
Then how? Game? Books? His own line of condoms?
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