Toho Kingdom

This seemed like the best forum to ask this in.
So... Bagan. Easily one of the most divisive topics in the whole fandom. Personally, I like Bagan. Is he overhyped? I think so, but I also feel some people exaggerate just how overrated he is.
But that's just me. What do you think about him?

I was just okay with him when I was little, he felt like a fitting final boss for the medium he appeared in. I missed out on the Bagan-fanfic hype train that it seems a lot more modern fans are familiar with (or at least the ones in this forum), so I never saw him as the strongest monster of all time. But, I've come to appreciate him far more after researching him. His ties with Toho and in particular Tomoyuki Tanaka have captured my interest wholly.

It's too bad his personality, origins, and even design have been torn apart and scattered across so many monsters; there's a little piece of him all over the Heisei era post-Biollante.

GigaBowserG wrote: But, I've come to appreciate him far more after researching him. His ties with Toho and in particular Tomoyuki Tanaka have captured my interest wholly.

It's too bad his personality, origins, and even design have been torn apart and scattered across so many monsters; there's a little piece of him all over the Heisei era post-Biollante.

Ok, you've piqued my interest. Can you please explain more?

Hate him.

GodzillavsRayquaza wrote:Ok, you've piqued my interest. Can you please explain more?

I don't want to spoil much yet, since he'll be getting his update eventually on the main site. But,

Dont really like him.

I think he's ok, but nothing more, if he ever gets to be in any movie, I would see him just as Albino Destoroyah.

Dollar store destroyah

GodzillavsRayquaza wrote:I think so, but I also feel some people exaggerate just how overrated he is.

He can be overrated and overplayed, such as him being "the actual devil". A rather annoying fan title that sticks to Destoroyah as well. Going by what we know in game, Bagan is an actual powerhouse which you can't argue against. Capable of tremendous speed and strength despite his size and bulk. However this is only limited to his universe and it's difficult to gauge his and Godzilla's feats outside of the confines of the game.

I did roughly spit ball that Bagan was AT LEAST as strong as Mechagodzilla 2 going by how fast he kicks your arse and comparing it to MG2. Godzilla was possibly as strong as pre-revive RadoGoji.

In short, Bagan is strong but only as strong as you want him to be. Same goes for any monster really. He's a powerhouse that fits well in the Heisei continuity but he definitely cannot take the the entire Heisei universe and win. That's just crazy.

Kinggoji1962 wrote:Dollar store destroyah

So he would be a dollar store version of an already dollar store kaiju?

I really like Bagan. He's got a really neat design. In fact I created a whole line of characters based around the idea of Bagan. Still as a video game only character there's not much out there to work with. Still just cause he was only in a game doesn't take away from him in any way. My favorite analog is Hatchiyack from the Dragonball Z game Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans. Though at least he has the luxury of having appeared in animated form a few times.

Bagan is a interesting topic all around. But I personally think there is a bit too much love for the guy in all sincerity. The only way I think Bagan can ever live on is through the eyes of his fans when it comes to fan films, fiction, and art.

I think that overall Bagan as a character is a one off and has contributed nothing to the overall lore of Godzilla. He should not have been given as much credence as he has and I do not understand the fervor and appeal he draws from the fandom. He was a random villian from one video game title in the 90's and yet we treat him like the dark prince of Godzilla villians. Oh and speaking of one off characters, how come there is so much love for Bagan but very little has been set aside for other one off characters like cybersaur, the all-tarrantula, Gekido-Jin and Bagorah?

Panther10 wrote:I think that overall Bagan as a character is a one off and has contributed nothing to the overall lore of Godzilla. He should not have been given as much credence as he has and I do not understand the fervor and appeal he draws from the fandom. He was a random villian from one video game title in the 90's and yet we treat him like the dark prince of Godzilla villians. Oh and speaking of one off characters, how come there is so much love for Bagan but very little has been set aside for other one off characters like cybersaur, the all-tarrantula, Gekido-Jin and Bagorah?

Guess people like his design and his obscurity. Other than that, I got nothing.

He's the best kaiju ever bar none and anyone who disagrees just doesn't understand Tanaka's vision.






Jk, but I think he's pretty cool. The desire to make him the toughest Godzilla foe of all time clearly extends from the fact that most contenders for that title are really wimpy when you get right down to it, so having this one kaiju who's so shrouded in myth that any claim about his strength sounds plausible comes in handy.

Ivo-goji wrote: The desire to make him the toughest Godzilla foe of all time clearly extends from the fact that most contenders for that title are really wimpy when you get right down to it,

Can you please explain that a bit more? I'm curious as to why you think that.

I mean...

Its cool and all but he's turned into a joke to the point where I'm sick of hearing about it. I like the hybrid concept more than the generic lesser Destroyah type creature.

GodzillavsRayquaza wrote:

Ivo-goji wrote: The desire to make him the toughest Godzilla foe of all time clearly extends from the fact that most contenders for that title are really wimpy when you get right down to it,

Can you please explain that a bit more? I'm curious as to why you think that.

Well the main thing is probably the kaiju fandom's obsession with melee combat ability as the sole decisive factor in gauging how strong a monster is, and heroic monsters have a monoply on that front. Like, Ghidorah, Hedorah, Destoroyah, and Orga are all built up in their films as serious powerhouses, but in debates fans usually dismiss them on the grounds of "too slow, can't hand-to-hand" "beam spammers are trash". (Not all the time though; Heisei Mechagodzilla is a floating gun platform but he's generally recognized for how strong he is) The one or two Godzilla rogues that are legitimately good at melee have other flaws- Millennium Gigan was made of plasticine and his Showa counterpart was a coward, Ebirah was barely a threat to Godzilla, Kumonga was too flammable, etc. Again, not a universal thing, but a trend I see in discussions a lot.
Then there are other Godzilla enemies who more or less get their due in terms of how fans rate their power level, but they lack that 'ultimate final boss' vibe that makes them seem like they could be the strongest ever. Titanosaurs for example; he has the melee skills, he has the durability, he has the speed, but is he likely to top anyone's list for 'Godzilla's greatest nemesis of all time'?
So in that context, there's Bagan. He's never been in a movie so he's never been portrayed by a man in a suit, so instead of complaining about how stiff and immobile he is fans are free to asume he's the most agile kaiju ever. And since he's literally the final boss of a video game he has the prestige to make it seem like he can stand shoulder to shoulder with other heavyweights in the Godzilla series. Plus he was so tough Godzilla had to go Super Saiyan to defeat him, so he has that perception of being beyond anything the monster king had ever faced before or since...
That's my take on it at least.

Ivo-goji wrote:

GodzillavsRayquaza wrote:

Ivo-goji wrote: The desire to make him the toughest Godzilla foe of all time clearly extends from the fact that most contenders for that title are really wimpy when you get right down to it,

Can you please explain that a bit more? I'm curious as to why you think that.

Well the main thing is probably the kaiju fandom's obsession with melee combat ability as the sole decisive factor in gauging how strong a monster is, and heroic monsters have a monoply on that front. Like, Ghidorah, Hedorah, Destoroyah, and Orga are all built up in their films as serious powerhouses, but in debates fans usually dismiss them on the grounds of "too slow, can't hand-to-hand" "beam spammers are trash". (Not all the time though; Heisei Mechagodzilla is a floating gun platform but he's generally recognized for how strong he is) The one or two Godzilla rogues that are legitimately good at melee have other flaws- Millennium Gigan was made of plasticine and his Showa counterpart was a coward, Ebirah was barely a threat to Godzilla, Kumonga was too flammable, etc. Again, not a universal thing, but a trend I see in discussions a lot.
Then there are other Godzilla enemies who more or less get their due in terms of how fans rate their power level, but they lack that 'ultimate final boss' vibe that makes them seem like they could be the strongest ever. Titanosaurs for example; he has the melee skills, he has the durability, he has the speed, but is he likely to top anyone's list for 'Godzilla's greatest nemesis of all time'?
So in that context, there's Bagan. He's never been in a movie so he's never been portrayed by a man in a suit, so instead of complaining about how stiff and immobile he is fans are free to asume he's the most agile kaiju ever. And since he's literally the final boss of a video game he has the prestige to make it seem like he can stand shoulder to shoulder with other heavyweights in the Godzilla series. Plus he was so tough Godzilla had to go Super Saiyan to defeat him, so he has that perception of being beyond anything the monster king had ever faced before or since...
That's my take on it at least.

But for the sake of argument, isn't Burning Godzilla something of a "super saiyan" mode for Godzilla as well when he faced off against Destroyah? I mean in that movie his power levels were off the charts. Far higher than any iteration of Godzilla outside of shin. (Which is arguable since Shin Godzilla only used his atomic energy once. And for reasons I can't explain he decided to use all of this power against the military; which is basically the equivalent of using a 1000 lbs. UGB to kill a gnat) Burning Godzilla was also facing off an opponent that literally sapped him off all his strength by the end of the movie.

Panther10 wrote:

Ivo-goji wrote:

GodzillavsRayquaza wrote: Can you please explain that a bit more? I'm curious as to why you think that.

Well the main thing is probably the kaiju fandom's obsession with melee combat ability as the sole decisive factor in gauging how strong a monster is, and heroic monsters have a monoply on that front. Like, Ghidorah, Hedorah, Destoroyah, and Orga are all built up in their films as serious powerhouses, but in debates fans usually dismiss them on the grounds of "too slow, can't hand-to-hand" "beam spammers are trash". (Not all the time though; Heisei Mechagodzilla is a floating gun platform but he's generally recognized for how strong he is) The one or two Godzilla rogues that are legitimately good at melee have other flaws- Millennium Gigan was made of plasticine and his Showa counterpart was a coward, Ebirah was barely a threat to Godzilla, Kumonga was too flammable, etc. Again, not a universal thing, but a trend I see in discussions a lot.
Then there are other Godzilla enemies who more or less get their due in terms of how fans rate their power level, but they lack that 'ultimate final boss' vibe that makes them seem like they could be the strongest ever. Titanosaurs for example; he has the melee skills, he has the durability, he has the speed, but is he likely to top anyone's list for 'Godzilla's greatest nemesis of all time'?
So in that context, there's Bagan. He's never been in a movie so he's never been portrayed by a man in a suit, so instead of complaining about how stiff and immobile he is fans are free to asume he's the most agile kaiju ever. And since he's literally the final boss of a video game he has the prestige to make it seem like he can stand shoulder to shoulder with other heavyweights in the Godzilla series. Plus he was so tough Godzilla had to go Super Saiyan to defeat him, so he has that perception of being beyond anything the monster king had ever faced before or since...
That's my take on it at least.

But for the sake of argument, isn't Burning Godzilla something of a "super saiyan" mode for Godzilla as well when he faced off against Destroyah? I mean in that movie his power levels were off the charts.

Exactly, Destoroyah is supposed to be one of Godzilla's strongest opponents, but since he's a big thighed Heisei kaiju with limited articulation no one cares. He can reconstitute his body from microbes and is immune to anything other than extreme temperature weapons yet according to FM debaters any kaiju with basic melee skills will kick his butt. Take a look at any of the FM topics and you'll see what I mean.