Does This Statement Hold any Truth with our Fanbase?

[hammysammy59]

While I think G3 definitely has some pacing and character issues, I still like it overall. It never came across as needlessly "dark'n'gritty" to me. I mean these are monster movies, some light horror elements don't seem so out of left field to me. I might just be partial to Irys and its creepy relationship with the girl. I liked how it mirrored Gamera's relationship with the other girl in the first movie, and I found the arc of Gamera redeeming himself to the girl and the public at large very satisfying. The weird nihilistic video game designer character and his ladyfriend were idiotic though.

[Tohosaurus]

I just would like to chime in that Gamera 3 is an example of making things dark for no reason whatsoever.

I would have to respectfully disagree. Ayana is driven by rage throughout the entire movie, and that is taken advantage of; moreover, she's in many ways unable to cope with the loss of her family, which again fuels her hatred of Gamera to the point of wanting to kill him. Having such lust for vengeance is a very dark thing, indeed. That makes the dark undertone pretty digestible to me. Now I have said before that despite the fact that I think a lot of Gamera 3, I do find it to be somewhat over-rated.

In August Ragone's segment on the MST3K DVD set, at one point he said some people cheered when all those people flew up into an explosion. Like seriously? Are people that desperate for their franchise to be taken seriously that they'll flip out over a good but nonsensical effect?

While I would hardly cheer at the sight of it, scenes like that can be appreciated because they depict the events on a human level, somewhat similar to Godzilla following the crowd of running people in G85. Too often we just see Gamera or whoever just walking along city streets and such. Clips such as these show that amidst the monster action we're watching, people are dying, their homes and businesses are being destroyed. It's very dangerous and, well, awful.

Yet people still ignore all that and call it the best Kaiju film since Godzilla '54 because its dark and has good effects. That's all. And it skreeonk disgusts me. Is this movie REALLY what people want Godzilla to be like?

Anyone is entitled to whatever aspect of the movie they like, be it dark or whatever in this case. To be this intolerant of the views others may hold is impractical and not very becoming of a cinema enthusiast.

[Tomzilla]

If you're asking me if I think wanting a Godzilla film to be 'dark and gritty' makes me a fanboy, I'd happily disagree, mostly because I'd give you a more detailed explanation why I'd think that. I also think G3 is a great film not just because of its incredible SFX and 'dark, gritty' atmosphere. But that's for another thread.

First, we should ask ourselves what is a fanboy and what makes you one? A fanboy to me is a person whose obsession, with whatever it is they're into is, blinds them from other alternative prospects. A fan wanting the next Godzilla film to be dark and gritty, kinda like Gojira was, doesn't make them a fanboy. Now if it's the only thing they like and it's the only thing they want, and they're on a personal crusade to remind everyone of this--our differing opinions be damned--then yes, they're a fanboy.

So basically, I think fanboys are at war with anyone who disagrees with them.

It's hard to judge an entire fanbase this way. Most Godzilla fans I know love Gojira not because everyone else has placed it on some divine pedestal, but because they really like the film. It's the same with Gamera 3 and many other kaiju movies. You're better off claiming fans resent GODZILLA '98 because everyone else is doing it. Peer pressure happens all the time in person and on the internet. Of course, I'm sure many fans legitimately hate that film. But if I'm reading all this right, and if it's true fans love a certain movie because most of the fanbase loves it, it's equally valid to say the same about the movies you don't like. Sadly, the 'hive mentality' won't be going away anytime soon. Most people don't like confrontations, it tends to bring out the fanboy in 'em, so they either convert or keep it to themselves until compelled otherwise.

I try not to look into these things too much. Way I see it, if you like or hate a film, then please have reasons in advance if you were ever asked why. If you 'like' or 'hate' a film because others feel that way, then it's not really your opinion in the first place, so you should make up your own.

[Svitska Donkun]

I would have to respectfully disagree. Ayana is driven by rage throughout the entire movie, and that is taken advantage of; moreover, she's in many ways unable to cope with the loss of her family, which again fuels her hatred of Gamera to the point of wanting to kill him. Having such lust for vengeance is a very dark thing, indeed. That makes the dark undertone pretty digestible to me. Now I have said before that despite the fact that I think a lot of Gamera 3, I do find it to be somewhat over-rated.

This has no indication on the quality of the overall film. I can go into detail of what drives a character at face value, and in G3 its very obvious, but that doesn't make the film any better. Her character is still handled terribly, as are most of the other characters, in a plot that is broken. Just because revenge is what the story is about doesn't make the film any decent.

While I would hardly cheer at the sight of it, scenes like that can be appreciated because they depict the events on a human level, somewhat similar to Godzilla following the crowd of running people in G85. Too often we just see Gamera or whoever just walking along city streets and such. Clips such as these show that amidst the monster action we're watching, people are dying, their homes and businesses are being destroyed. It's very dangerous and, well, awful.

That entire sequence is completely out of character for Gamera in a way that's never properly explained. He hundreds of people in that scene wihtout caring or thinking, contrary to his previous appearances. It's violence for the sake of violence. That's it. Gamera killed way more people in that sequence than I can ever recall a Gayos killing. And then they try to back track all that murder with Gamera deciding to protect one kid. It's skreeonk stupid. They're just being dark and violent because they can. there's no real explanation and the military has every right to want to kill Gamera, which is not what you want the audience to think. IT seems like the script is trying to be ambitious here in discussing the ethics of a Monster destroying things in the name of our protection, but that falls flat on its face when Gamera destroys all of Shinjuku without a single skreeonk given.

[Tohosaurus]

This has no indication on the quality of the overall film. I can go into detail of what drives a character at face value, and in G3 its very obvious, but that doesn't make the film any better. Her character is still handled terribly, as are most of the other characters, in a plot that is broken. Just because revenge is what the story is about doesn't make the film any decent.

I responded to your statement of Gamera 3 being dark only for the sake of being dark and that there was no point. My post indicates that the plot would integrate a dark theme very well since it's about vengance. The quality therein is another matter altogether and you're perfectly entitled to your position, but was the movie pointlessly dark? I say no.

That entire sequence is completely out of character for Gamera in a way that's never properly explained. He hundreds of people in that scene wihtout caring or thinking, contrary to his previous appearances. It's violence for the sake of violence. That's it. Gamera killed way more people in that sequence than I can ever recall a Gayos killing. And then they try to back track all that murder with Gamera deciding to protect one kid. It's skreeonk stupid. They're just being dark and violent because they can. there's no real explanation and the military has every right to want to kill Gamera, which is not what you want the audience to think. IT seems like the script is trying to be ambitious here in discussing the ethics of a Monster destroying things in the name of our protection, but that falls flat on its face when Gamera destroys all of Shinjuku without a single skreeonk given.

Again, this is another matter entirely. But depicting the horrors of what's actually happening to humanity is not a vain effort. And you know what? Let's just say they were trying to be dark and violent for the sake of it. My response would then be: so what? If a person doesn't like it they don't have to watch it, much less like it. But to chastise it as being inferior JUST because it's pointlessly dark or violent in whatever manner is simply being intolerant.

[Biollante]

That entire sequence is completely out of character for Gamera in a way that's never properly explained.

Didn't Gamera 2 imply that Gamera broke his bond with Asagi and now has to absorb mana from the mean old world, hence why he was being a dick?

[Tohosaurus]

That entire sequence is completely out of character for Gamera in a way that's never properly explained.

Didn't Gamera 2 imply that Gamera broke his bond with Asagi and now has to absorb mana from the mean old world, hence why he was being a dick?

I think you meant to quote the other poster, but yes as I understand it Gamera has a certain disconnect with humanity from that point on.

[Svitska Donkun]

Again, this is another matter entirely. But depicting the horrors of what's actually happening to humanity is not a vain effort. And you know what? Let's just say they were trying to be dark and violent for the sake of it. My response would then be: so what? If a person doesn't like it they don't have to watch it, much less like it. But to chastise it as being inferior JUST because it's pointlessly dark or violent in whatever manner is simply being intolerant.

Well good, considering I don't watch it. But excuse me for having skreeonk standards in what I watch and not wanting my favorite franchise to sink to that level.

[Biollante]

What "level" are we talking about?

[Svitska Donkun]

Being dark and violent for the sake of being dark and violent.

[Biollante]

Has there ever been a Godzilla film that we could really consider "violent for the sake of being violent?" Been a while since I've seen them, but I recall Return of Godzilla and Godzilla vs. Hedorah having some pretty unnecessary scenes.

Wasn't there a scene in RoG where Godzilla just burned down a row of Japanese soldiers? I think it was right after he emerged from the ocean.

[Svitska Donkun]

Has there ever been a Godzilla film that we could really consider "violent for the sake of being violent?" Been a while since I've seen them, but I recall Return of Godzilla and Godzilla vs. Hedorah having some pretty unnecessary scenes.

Uhm...no, not really. Every Godzilla films have fallen into specific boundaries under Toho's supervision. They're are every specific limitations set on the character when he was portrayed in movies. This is why there was an outcry when the IDW comics had Godzilla killing children. And it was extremely transparent that it was only in there for shock value. Godzilla himself did nothing questionable in Gvs.H; Hedorah however did some pretty horrifying things, but that was because he was a living manifestation of pollution and death. It made sense. When Godzilla killed those people in ROG it was because they were trying to portray Godzilla as he was in '54, completely unstoppable, and us being insignificant. In Gamera, it was really transparent he was killing all those people for no reason other than shock value, especially given that he contradicts himself in that very sequence. Just because of the lazy unclear "disconnected himself from humanity" thing is in the script doesn't justify Gamera murdering everyone but saving ONE kid.

[Biollante]

Was it really intentional murder? (I can't believe I'm asking this)

The attempt at shock value is pretty blatant, but you can at least sugar coat it to say that Gamera lost his "connection" with humans and was killing people on accident. Is that not better than Gamera just killing people because "lolwhynot?" I like to think there's something to work with there, even though it's well, not worked with

[Svitska Donkun]

Was it really intentional murder? (I can't believe I'm asking this)

The attempt at shock value is pretty blatant, but you can at least sugar coat it to say that Gamera lost his "connection" with humans and was killing people on accident. Is that not better than Gamera just killing people because "lolwhynot?" I like to think there's something work to with there

He decided to fire a fireball through a building full of people. He landed of people when entering the city. He was not ignorant to the thousand of screams of pain around him. His actions wwere certainly more of "lolwhynot?" then bumbling accidents. It was a bad decision. Now if the Gayos were killing everyone rather than fleeing for their lives....IT was a boat load of stupid.

[Biollante]

He decided to fire a fireball through a building full of people.

To make an omelette...

You know, it never really occurred to me during my first viewing, but that whole sequence was very silly.

[Svitska Donkun]

He decided to fire a fireball through a building full of people.

To make an omelette...

You know, it never really occurred to me during my first viewing, but that whole sequence was very silly.

Yea, without all Gamera's visual bells and whistles, its really a terrible movie. I have the opposite problem with GMK. I think the special effects are terrible but the movie is good. Gamera 1&2 are great, though.

[TitanoGoji16]

And then they try to back track all that murder with Gamera deciding to protect one kid. It's skreeonk stupid.

You do realize that Gamera 'saved' that kid completely by accident, right?

[therealmccoy]

Again, this is another matter entirely. But depicting the horrors of what's actually happening to humanity is not a vain effort. And you know what? Let's just say they were trying to be dark and violent for the sake of it. My response would then be: so what? If a person doesn't like it they don't have to watch it, much less like it. But to chastise it as being inferior JUST because it's pointlessly dark or violent in whatever manner is simply being intolerant.

Well good, considering I don't watch it. But excuse me for having skreeonk standards in what I watch and not wanting my favorite franchise to sink to that level.

Was that really necessary?

High standards are cool and everything, but when those standards make you dislike the film as much as you do, you're taking it too seriously. Feel free to blast me with a wall of text proving me wrong; I welcome it.

Excuse me and a lot of others for not letting our standards ruin a damn monster movie for us.

[SuperSaiyan4Godzilla]

Again, this is another matter entirely. But depicting the horrors of what's actually happening to humanity is not a vain effort. And you know what? Let's just say they were trying to be dark and violent for the sake of it. My response would then be: so what? If a person doesn't like it they don't have to watch it, much less like it. But to chastise it as being inferior JUST because it's pointlessly dark or violent in whatever manner is simply being intolerant.

Well good, considering I don't watch it. But excuse me for having skreeonk standards in what I watch and not wanting my favorite franchise to sink to that level.

lulz. Standards only matter when it comes to women.

[Cimmerian Dragon]

Has there ever been a Godzilla film that we could really consider "violent for the sake of being violent?" Been a while since I've seen them, but I recall Return of Godzilla and Godzilla vs. Hedorah having some pretty unnecessary scenes.

Wasn't there a scene in RoG where Godzilla just burned down a row of Japanese soldiers? I think it was right after he emerged from the ocean.

Unnecessary? I thought those scenes, especially the total incineration of a company in a few seconds, really set the mood for the upcoming attack. Godzilla washed them away like a burning tidal wave, and when I was a kid it really made him sort of scary.