Comprehensive Guide to Toho's English Versions

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Joseph Goodman
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Re: Comprehensive Guide to Toho's English Versions

Postby Joseph Goodman » Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:41 pm

Tamura wrote:RODAN

-US version released in 1957 by Distributors Corporation of America. Features some additional Japanese-shot footage (presumably from the Japanese workprint the US version was edited from),


As good a reason as any to bump this thread....


I'd like to call "not so!" on this one. The source for the claim that the DCA version of "Rodan" contains additional Japanese-shot footage seems to be an article, written by Brian Culver, that appeared in the Kaiju-Fan magazine sometime in 1998 (http://www.historyvortex.org/TohoAmerica2.html). This article cites several instances of footage unique to the American version, however, the last time I had my Classic Media disc of this film out, it was quite apparent that all instances of claimed "unique" footage were, in fact, existing shots that had been optically zoomed in, flipped, or otherwise manipulated.

Additionally, they wouldn't have come from a workprint, even if there were actually new scenes in the DCA version. A workprint is a print of each camera roll, used to assemble the final edit of the film. Once the workprint was finished, the original camera negative rolls would be cut to conform to the finalized workprint. Along the way, the workprint would've acquired quite a bit of wear and tear, to say nothing of grease pencil marks, tape, etc. In the early days of Eastmancolor (i.e the mid-fifties), it also wasn't unheard of for workprints to have been on b&w stock. A workprint certainly wouldn't have made an acceptable element for Toho to print off an element to send DCA, especially with the quality of the early Eastmancolor duplication stocks. Toho would've sent DCA an interpositive (a print from the camera negative with the same low contrast and orange mask as a camera negative, used for printing subsequent internegatives, i.e. the final DCA negative), or separation positives (three low-contrast positive prints, one for each color layer of the negative... yellow, cyan, magenta, which would then be printed to a final single internegative), but certainly not a workprint.

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Re: Comprehensive Guide to Toho's English Versions

Postby Brian R Culver » Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:00 pm

Joseph Goodman wrote:I'd like to call "not so!" on this one. The source for the claim that the DCA v]rsion of "Rodan" contains additional Japanese-shot footage seems to be an article, written by Brian Culver, that appeared in the Kaiju-Fan magazine sometime in 1998 (http://www.historyvortex.org/TohoAmerica2.html). This article cites several instances of footage unique to the American version, however, the last time I had my Classic Media disc of this film out, it was quite apparent that all instances of claimed "unique" footage were, in fact, existing shots that had been optically zoomed in, flipped, or otherwise manipulated.

Additionally, they wouldn't have come from a workprint, even if there were actually new scenes in the DCA version. A workprint is a print of each camera roll, used to assemble the final edit of the film. Once the workprint was finished, the original camera negative rolls would be cut to conform to the finalized workprint. Along the way, the workprint would've acquired quite a bit of wear and tear, to say nothing of grease pencil marks, tape, etc. In the early days of Eastmancolor (i.e the mid-fifties), it also wasn't unheard of for workprints to have been on b&w stock. A workprint certainly wouldn't have made an acceptable element for Toho to print off an element to send DCA, especially with the quality of the early Eastmancolor duplication stocks. Toho would've sent DCA an interpositive (a print from the camera negative with the same low contrast and orange mask as a camera negative, used for printing subsequent internegatives, i.e. the final DCA negative), or separation positives (three low-contrast positive prints, one for each color layer of the negative... yellow, cyan, magenta, which would then be printed to a final single internegative), but certainly not a workprint.


Hey Joseph, it’s been a while.

I hope to follow up at more length later about this as most of it is written from memory. In the meantime, consider the following:

- The original source of the claim is not my article, but the 1980 JAPANESE GIANTS #6 article by Ed Godzi and Peter Brothers that I referenced. Having viewed both versions prior to the KF article, I was as skeptical as you. It was only after hours of detailed comparison of the US and Japanese versions that proof became apparent.

- One thing you’re most likely right about is the improper use of the term work print. This was again based on the JG article. What I’m convinced of is that there are at least a handful of frames of Toho shot footage exclusive to the US version.

- Synch up the two versions of the film and/or do a side by side comparison of the shot where Rodan emerges from under the bridge. The US version runs a few frames longer.

- The RODAN analysis was a pain in the ass IIRC and it’s possible there were errors. Corrections are welcome. Unlike many in this fandom I regard the truth as more important than reputation/ego and will admit to making mistakes.

- On that ego/reputation thing, I’m pretty sure most of the typos at the JRR site reflect neither what I submitted to KF nor what was printed.


On an unrelated note, I’ve written two pages of additions/corrections to this page. Should it be done in pieces or one big ass post?


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Re: Comprehensive Guide to Toho's English Versions

Postby Goji » Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:52 am

^ Any corrections are more than welcome. I should mention that this version of the guide hasn't been updated in months, because frankly, a lot of people around here don't give a damn about this stuff, and would rather discuss the size of Godzilla's toe nails.

We've updated the version of the guide we have on Facebook multiple times, and it may even include some of the corrections you are planning on pointing out. If you're on Facebook, and interested in joining the "Dubs!" group, just shoot Tamura, me, or Cody Himes a PM, and we'll point you in the right direction!
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Re: Comprehensive Guide to Toho's English Versions

Postby Terasawa » Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:51 am

This shot of the two Rodans leaving Fukuoka (Sasebo) is only in the US version of the film.

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Re: Comprehensive Guide to Toho's English Versions

Postby Joseph Goodman » Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:07 pm

Brian R Culver wrote:
*valid points*

Brian R. Culver



I see where you're coming from, and it's still a great article, don't get me wrong. On the issue of certain shots running a few frames longer in the American cut, I wonder if that still holds true when comparing it to Toho's DVD or Blu-ray masters? The transfer on the Classic Media disc seems to be from Toho's 90's laserdisc; the later DVD and Blu-ray masters may have been from a different source.

I think maybe your corrections could be done as a big-ass post starting it's own thread?

CTHimes wrote:
This shot of the two Rodans leaving Fukuoka (Sasebo) is only in the US version of the film.

http://i.imgur.com/U9sBo.png



I agree, I can't find that anywhere in the Japanese version. Does it show up in the Japanese trailer, maybe?

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Re: Comprehensive Guide to Toho's English Versions

Postby Terasawa » Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:40 pm

Joseph Goodman wrote:I agree, I can't find that anywhere in the Japanese version. Does it show up in the Japanese trailer, maybe?


I checked it out on YouTube. There are a number of alternate takes (especially of SFX shots), but this specific shot is not one of them.
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Re: Comprehensive Guide to Toho's English Versions

Postby Tamura » Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:42 pm

Great posts, everyone! And thanks for the info about workprints and stuff, Joseph. I'm still kind of rusty on that sort of subject.
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Re: Comprehensive Guide to Toho's English Versions

Postby Brian R Culver » Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:16 pm

Joseph Goodman wrote:On the issue of certain shots running a few frames longer in the American cut, I wonder if that still holds true when comparing it to Toho's DVD or Blu-ray masters? The transfer on the Classic Media disc seems to be from Toho's 90's laserdisc; the later DVD and Blu-ray masters may have been from a different source.

It’s possible, but I’m skeptical. It’s true that my article was based on the 90’s TLL2388 laserdisc. The JG article was based on an earlier source, either an early Japanese commercial tape or more likely a recording from a Japanese TV broadcast.

I emailed Ed and linked to this discussion for a reality check. This is what he said:
The reference to the work print may not have been correct, but I would stand by the assertion that there is some footage in the US print that isn't in the Japanese print. Terminology nothwithstanding, it's still there. I did that comparison 30 years ago, so my memory isn't clear on the details right now. I certainly am aware of the reversed footage and so on... but it was more than just that.
You really have to wonder what it was that Toho gave them as far as footage to work with. I asked Arikawa about this back in 1999, but he had no idea what was given to the US side.

It’s going to be up to this new generation of fans that care about such things to sort this out. Other than sharing knowledge, I don’t have the time or energy these days to compare versions like in the past.

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Re: Comprehensive Guide to Toho's English Versions

Postby Joseph Goodman » Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:20 am

I will say this, it wasn't unheard of for "protection" or back-up elements made back in the day in Hollywood to have been printed before the camera negative was %100 finalized... the separations for "The King And I" don't include some of the finished opticals, the seps on "Carousel" didn't have any of the final opticals, the separations for "2001" contain almost twenty minutes that were cut before the general release edit was finalized, etc. A scenario like this happening with whatever Toho sent DCA for "Rodan" isn't out of the realm of possibility.

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Help creating a list of known English Godzilla dubs

Postby jmmedia » Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:24 pm

I'm working hard on completing a catalog of all known English dubs of godzilla movies, including ones created by Toho themselves for International Release, as well as the Tritas (sp?) English dubbings that we all saw on TV. Does anyone know which G-films had different, alternate English dubs?

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Re: Help creating a list of known English Godzilla dubs

Postby Julia Bristow » Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:47 am

Um I think that we have a guide for Godzilla dubs & what not

read this: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7462
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Re: Help creating a list of known English Godzilla dubs

Postby Tamura » Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:23 am

If only the guide were stickied, then people like you who inquire about them would notice it easily. :\ I guess the "which kaiju would make the best couple???///" thread is more worthy of being kept alive.
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Re: Comprehensive Guide to Toho's English Versions

Postby Space Hunter M » Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:28 am

Are the video generated copyright notices from some of the old 1980s masters (e.g. Rodan) worth a mention?
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Re: Help creating a list of known English Godzilla dubs

Postby Terasawa » Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:30 pm

You should really check out the thread that's been linked here, but here's an in-thread answer for you:

Almost every Godzilla film has an international Toho dub. Most of these were dubbed in Hong Kong, but three of the 60s films were dubbed in Tokyo by Frontier Enterprises (EBIRAH, HORROR OF THE DEEP; SON OF GODZILLA; DESTROY ALL MONSTERS). If it has an international dub, it was most likely released here in an edited version with said dub, though there are a few exceptions:

* GODZILLA (54) - 1956 US version with Raymond Burr, released as "Godzilla, King of the Monsters!" No Toho dub.

* GODZILLA RAIDS AGAIN - 1959 US version, re-edited and released as Gigantis the Fire Monster". Dubbed at Ryder Sound Service, Inc. (LA). No Toho dub.

* KING KONG VS. GODZILLA - 1963 US version, re-edited and featuring new scenes. Dubbed at Ryder Sound Services, Inc. There's also a complete Toho dub.

* MOTHRA VS. GODZILLA - 1964 US version, released as "Godzilla vs. the Thing". Dubbed by Titra Sound Studios (New York). No Toho dub.

* GHIDORAH, THE THREE-HEADED MONSTER - 1965 US version, released as "Ghidrah, the Three-Headed Monster". Dubbed by Bellucci Productions, Inc. (New York?). No Toho dub.

* INVASION OF ASTRO-MONSTER - 1970 US version, released as "Monster Zero". Dubbed by Glen Glenn Sound Co. (LA). No separate Toho dub, though Toho has a print of the film with the "Invasion of the Astro-Monsters" title featuring this same dub (it's often called an international version). Check that thread for more info.

* EBIRAH, HORROR OF THE DEEP - 1968 US version, dubbed by Titan Productions (formerly Titra Sound Studios), released as "Godzilla vs. the Sea Monster". Toho dub by Frontier Enterprises.

* SON OF GODZILLA - 1969 US version, dubbed by Titan Productions. Toho dub by Frontier Enterprises.

* DESTROY ALL MONSTERS - 1969 US version, dubbed by Titan Productions. Toho dub by Frontier Enterprises.

* ALL MONSTERS ATTACK - 1971 US version, released as "Godzilla's Revenge". Dubbed at Ryder Sound Services, Inc. For some reason, Toho never produced their own English dub of this film.

* GODZILLA VS. HEDORAH - 1972 US version, released a "Godzilla vs. the Smog Monster". Dubbed by Titan Productions. Toho dub produced in Hong Kong.

After that, most US distributors stopped bothering to re-dub the movies and just released edited international versions with new credits. Only two new US Godzilla dubs have been produced since 1972:

* THE RETURN OF GODZILLA - 1985 US version, released as "Godzilla 1985". Dubbed by a group called "The Super Loopers" at Ryder Sound Services, Inc. Toho dub produced in Hong Kong.

* GODZILLA 2000 MILLENNIUM - 2000 US version, released as "Godzilla 2000". Dubbed by Tri-Star (? As far as I know, there is no recording studio listed in the credits). There's also an unreleased Toho dub, produced in Hong Kong.
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Re: Help creating a list of known English Godzilla dubs

Postby Goji » Wed Oct 17, 2012 10:54 am

It should have been stickied a long time ago, frankly. I started the rough draft, but CT Himes and Tamura did *a lot*, and contributed the most, and it's a shame that it's being glossed over in favor of some truly retarded topics that pollute this place.

We'd probably be more inclined to post the updated version of the guide if a mod would be willing to actually sticky it.
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Re: Comprehensive Guide to Toho's English Versions

Postby Tamura » Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:29 am

Bumping this back to the top and requesting that it be stickied. Plzthx.
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Re: Comprehensive Guide to Toho's English Versions

Postby Goji » Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:04 pm

Tyler wrote:I'm for this being stickied.


For what it's worth, thanks for the vote.


I'm in agreement with Allen. This isn't any kind of self promotion or anything, but it's just that we believe it's a lot more useful than some are making it out to be, and should be stickied. While not everyone may care about this kind of stuff, it can't be denied that it's useful.
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Re: Comprehensive Guide to Toho's English Versions

Postby SuperMonsterZero » Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:42 pm

This should definitely be stickied. There's really no reason it shouldn't be.
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Re: Comprehensive Guide to Toho's English Versions

Postby Space Hunter M » Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:44 am

Question about the int'l version of King Ghidorah: Does it include the 60th Anniversary whatchamacallit card (Or an English counterpart) before the Toho logo or not? I should also like to point out how Revenge's credits attribute the re-recording to Ryder instead.
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Re: Comprehensive Guide to Toho's English Versions

Postby Tamura » Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:56 am

I don't think it ever began with the 60th Anniversary thing, or an English variant. My Italian and Russian copies (which, visually, are from intact int'l prints) both open with the int'l Toho logo. Thanks for the correction! It's easy to confuse the Hollywood dubbers.
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