No Godzilla film is pro nuke- but are all Godzilla films anti-nuke? Here me out

[miguelnuva]

I'm sure everyone knows that many fans have a problem with KOTM rightful so as everyone is entitled to their opinion. One of the biggest problems is people accuse the film of forgotten Godzilla's roots or being pro nuke a stance Godzilla has never taken before. I agree that Godzilla should never be pro nuclear weapons but at the same time I don't see KOTM as pro nuke.

Starting with the showa series we see films like Gojira, Megalon and Sea Monster that show how bad nuclear weapons are and these have a anti-nuke message. Some stronger than others. The showa series brings up what I feel is going on in the franchise however. We have no pro nuclear films but we also have films that are not anti nuclear. One could argue that the second Godzilla becomes a full blown hero while the anti nuclear message is not forgotten is it really being brought up? To me the second Godzilla becomes a hero it seems the message is already being betrayed or taken a back seat to the film. Godzilla has been described as a living nuclear weapon several times in the series but isn't Japan hoping he wins in GTTHM? Isn't the Earth using him as a weapon in DAM against the Kiliaks? He is surly our last hope in Terror of MechaGodzilla.

Then we jump to Godzilla vs King Ghidorah which is where a lot including myself go to to defend the nuke scene in KOTM. Toho does a great job of showing that the Japanese don't won't to resort to using nuclear devices especially on Godzilla. Shindo who is morally corrupt believes that Godzilla will save Japan as he saved Shindo's men in WWII.

The movie shows us that everyone is right in their fears, Godzilla is the less of two evils at the time King Ghidorah is under control and being uses by the Futurians and Godzilla was the only chance Japan had to survive but Toho does not put themselves in the same situation as Legendary. Godzilla after defeating Ghidorah immediately goes back to destroying Japan thus Shindo is suffering from his choices of using the nuclear sub. The main thing about this film we need to remember however is unlike the Showa series that Heisei series wasn't about Hero against villain, it was about monsters fighting worse monsters. Godzilla and Ghidorah's fight has no heroes it is the devil I know vs the devil I don't know.

Had Heisei Godzilla acted like Showa Godzilla before his power up this film would be perfect in shutting down KOTM's similar scene but we have to realize that Heisei Godzilla was not nice or friendly from the start. It doesn't matter what was used to revive him, he could have been revived with clean solar energy for example he was going to destroy Japan period.

Now finally we get to KOTM and while I understand why a lot of people hate it if you pay attention to the franchise here's why I don't feel it is pro-nuke.

Pro nuke to me would imply we could just nuke the Titans to death which we can't. The Mutos were implied to survive, Godzilla was nuked several times in the 60's and we are seen that a Nuke wouldn't have worked on Ghidorah given all we know. The film is simply pro Godzilla.

Only twice in the franchise has Godzilla been a clear cut hero in the film, Toho never put themselves in a scenario where Godzilla as the hero needed to be recharged, they put Godzilla in that scenario when he was the villain so the anti-nuclear message is clear cut. Legendary decided to base their Godzilla on the 70's Godzilla. Once again a Godzilla on death's door gets hit with said nuke, is supercharged and better then he was before, WE CANT JUST NUKE THE TITANS AWAY.

Said Supercharged Godzilla gets to Boston but then he still can't put Ghidorah away, Ghidorah then powers up and Godzilla's nuke power up has become useless. NUKES DIDN'T SOLVE THE PROBLEM. The nuke was simply the quickest solution to fix what we did to Godzilla with a worse weapon the Oxygen Destroyer.

Kotm is similar to the star wars prequels in that on paper some ideas are clever but on screen they came out bad. Godzilla's rebirth scene involves a couple things from Gojira and while not as powerful it is a nice parallel and reverse of fate.

1. Serizawa dying with Godzilla.
2. Oxygen Destroyer is worse than a nuke

These two things are all shown in this one scene, it might not have come across correctly but it's there.

Ghidorah is only stopped when Godzilla and Mothra combine, it is only when Godzilla becomes King that things start to get better. Godzilla and the Titans seem to take in radiation and convert it to something the Earth benefits from but more on that another day.

The movie seems more pro Godzilla to me then pro nuke. America was always going to make their Godzilla films different from Toho because we have a different culture but I don't see Legendary as having disrespected Toho's series. Toho never put themselves in a scenario where Godzilla in the 70's needed a nuke to be revived but I mentioned if Terror of MechaGodzilla happened in real life and Godzilla was beaten to the point that MV Godzilla was I don't see the same solution not being used. The same with the events of KOTM.

I don't any world leader if faced with Ghidorah who we can't stop wouldn't use a nuke on Godzilla who was in a place far away removed from any people.

I'm glad that the franchise is changing and allows us as fans to come together and have discussions on topics like this. I especially await to see LSD's responses and as said before this is my stance on the topic but it doesn't have to be right.

If you feel KOTM goes to far that is your right as a fan as well. I just think we needed a larger topic to discuss the entire franchise in general on this topic.

So to end it off, No Godzilla fan is pro nuke but not all are ant nuke, maybe like 5 tops.

[Terasawa]

Once again it all comes down to the execution in KOTM. As I said in the other thread, there's simply no good reason why a nuke should have been used in KOTM's screenplay. I proposed an alternate solution that ties into the film's environmental message while also echoing Dougherty's "good radiation" ideas. That's just one idea; I'm not even a professional filmmaker, so it's not like my solution is supposed to be the be-all, end-all. My point is that the filmmakers absolutely could have come up with something else instead of "Serizawa uses nuke to save Godzilla".

"It was the only solution available to them", "it's the fastest solution," etc. are only defenses of the characters' actions, not the filmmakers'. I would love to hear a solid defense for Mike Dougherty's decision to power Godzilla with a nuclear warhead; IMO, so far, no fan has done that.

Anyway, furthermore, I don't care Godzilla's stance relative to humanity in this film vs. that film; IMO the use of nuclear weapons should never be portrayed in anything but a negative light in any Godzilla movie. KOTM may not be pro-nuke, but it's certainly not anti-nuke, and that's a huge mistake considering the events the filmmakers chose to portray in their movie.

[Major sssspielberg!]

It's been said before, the warhead in KOTM felt like generic comic book tier writing which plenty of Godzilla and Kaiju films are head-and-shoulders above.
To me it was disappointing because the nuke scene and its implications/lack thereof meant another American Godzilla film that missed the mark of what makes the Toho films so special.

[eabaker]

The thing about Godzilla's hero turn in the Showa movies is that the references to his nuclear origin are completely dropped. Those movies ignore the anti-nuclear message, but they don't complicate or contradict it, because it's not an aspect of their stories in the slightest.

Most fans are totally okay with a Godzilla movie minimizing or ignoring the nuclear aspect, if it's not relevant to the story being told.

The difference with KotM is that so actively engages with the nuclear element, while failing to address it in any coherent, meaningful way (unlike GvsKG, which makes it very clear that intentionally nuking Godzilla is terribly irresponsibly choice, which results in a danger far greater than King Ghidorah).

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It's been said before, the warhead in KOTM felt like generic comic book tier writing which plenty of Godzilla and Kaiju films are head-and-shoulders above.
To me it was disappointing because the nuke scene and its implications/lack thereof meant another American Godzilla film that missed the mark of what makes the Toho films so special.

Yup. There's a lot of room to explore Americans' feelings about our country's role in decades of international nuclear proliferation, and so far none of the three American Godzilla movies have tried to tackle that with any depth whatsoever.

As much as I enjoy G'14, I will always feel a little robbed that we didn't get the somber anti-nuke movie that the trailers seemed to promise us.

[_JNavs_]

I'd argue they showed the damage a nuke could cause in the form of the OD, it killed an oceans worth of fish. Metaphorically it could be looked at as the US Governments severe lack of comprehension when it comes to atomic weapons, and their hastiness in using said weapons in problems they're looking to solve quickly and (in)effectively with no thoughts about the outcome.

Seeing the state Godzilla is in afterwards, and how Ghidorah just rose from the water with no problem, therefore accidentally "killing" their greatest ally, the US Government was shown to be rash and irresponsible and possibly even the reason the world ends, with the only way to save Godzilla, being to yes, nuke him miles underwater to revive him.

They basically had their cake and ate it too, and i see that as a strength for the film, rather than a weakness.

[Major sssspielberg!]

As much as I enjoy G'14, I will always feel a little robbed that we didn't get the somber anti-nuke movie that the trailers seemed to promise us.

That trailer cop out sucked. Thankfully Shin came along and scratched my somber Godzilla itch. Still would have been so cool for an American film to really nail it though.

[eabaker]

They basically had their cake and ate it too, and i see that as a strength for the film, rather than a weakness.

Having your cake and eating it to, as a storyteller, cheats your audience. It leaves them eating imaginary cake. There's no nourishment to be gained from imaginary cake.

That's a weird, strained analogy, but I think it still works.

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As much as I enjoy G'14, I will always feel a little robbed that we didn't get the somber anti-nuke movie that the trailers seemed to promise us.

That trailer cop out sucked. Thankfully Shin came along and scratched my somber Godzilla itch. Still would have been so cool for an American film to really nail it though.

Agreed on both counts.

[_JNavs_]

They basically had their cake and ate it too, and i see that as a strength for the film, rather than a weakness.

Having your cake and eating it to, as a storyteller, cheats your audience. It leaves them eating imaginary cake. There's no nourishment to be gained from imaginary cake.

That's a weird, strained analogy, but I think it still works.

That makes sense, but i feel like what happened in KOTM was essentially them getting a pizza pie for their family (the audience), and splitting the toppings down the middle (Lots of food references but they make for good comparisons lol).

Half is the whole "US Government is rash and irresponsible and potentially the cause of global nuclear annihilation"

and the other half goes towards the action-packed "Godzilla needs his radiation to survive and the government just killed him, so why not get them to give us a nuke (metaphorically an apology for their wrongdoings)"

Building on your nourishment point, there would be very little beneficial nourishment. But the audience would be full from what they just ate, whether they understood what they were eating or not.

It's definitely complicated and i'm sure there's tons of ways to look at the situation, but for me personally that's how i viewed it.

[MechaGoji Bro7503]

I concur with eabaker, the film fell short because it chose to tackle those nuclear themes. I actually now have a greater appreciation for GvKG the more I contrast it & KOTM.

KOTM just didn't care enough thematically, and probably couldn't show Godzilla's powers being negative as was the case in G14.

[Terasawa]

I'd argue they showed the damage a nuke could cause in the form of the OD, it killed an oceans worth of fish. Metaphorically it could be looked at as the US Governments severe lack of comprehension when it comes to atomic weapons, and their hastiness in using said weapons in problems they're looking to solve quickly and (in)effectively with no thoughts about the outcome.

But if that's the case don't they then compound that mistake by firing a nuclear weapon at Godzilla to revive him while also destroying the ancient temple? They're still trying to solve a problem quickly (don't they even say they can't afford to let Godzilla take his time to recharge) with no thoughts to the outcome (in this case, what firing a nuke would do to the ancient city, not to mention the undersea ecosystem they likely destroyed).

[Gigantis]

I don't see KOTM being pro-nuke, at least not on purpose. Although i don't think every Godzilla film is really anti-nuke either. GMK, Final Wars and most of the Heisei Era didn't really say anything about anti-nukes and focused on other stuff.

[eabaker]

They basically had their cake and ate it too, and i see that as a strength for the film, rather than a weakness.

Having your cake and eating it to, as a storyteller, cheats your audience. It leaves them eating imaginary cake. There's no nourishment to be gained from imaginary cake.

That's a weird, strained analogy, but I think it still works.

That makes sense, but i feel like what happened in KOTM was essentially them getting a pizza pie for their family (the audience), and splitting the toppings down the middle (Lots of food references but they make for good comparisons lol).

Half is the whole "US Government is rash and irresponsible and potentially the cause of global nuclear annihilation"

and the other half goes towards the action-packed "Godzilla needs his radiation to survive and the government just killed him, so why not get them to give us a nuke (metaphorically an apology for their wrongdoings)"

Building on your nourishment point, there would be very little beneficial nourishment. But the audience would be full from what they just ate, whether they understood what they were eating or not.

It's definitely complicated and i'm sure there's tons of ways to look at the situation, but for me personally that's how i viewed it.

Wow! I'm just impressed we were able to keep the analogy up so well!

And, yeah, I see where you're coming from.

[Terasawa]

GMK, Final Wars and most of the Heisei Era didn't really say anything about anti-nukes and focused on other stuff.

Doesn't GFW at least pay lip service to it with the grandfather's speech?

GMK though absolutely does. There's a poster of the Lucky Dragon No. 5 in the background during Godzilla's initial landfall; Yuri mentions that those who died by atomic bombing partly make up the restless spirits controlling Godzilla; Godzilla's first atomic ray results in a mushroom cloud, which is one of the most overt references to atomic weapons in any Godzilla movie.

[miguelnuva]

I'd argue they showed the damage a nuke could cause in the form of the OD, it killed an oceans worth of fish. Metaphorically it could be looked at as the US Governments severe lack of comprehension when it comes to atomic weapons, and their hastiness in using said weapons in problems they're looking to solve quickly and (in)effectively with no thoughts about the outcome.

But if that's the case don't they then compound that mistake by firing a nuclear weapon at Godzilla to revive him while also destroying the ancient temple? They're still trying to solve a problem quickly (don't they even say they can't afford to let Godzilla take his time to recharge) with no thoughts to the outcome (in this case, what firing a nuke would do to the ancient city, not to mention the undersea ecosystem they likely destroyed).

They destroyed Godzilla's recharge spot that he likely won't need again and considering how the radiation did Serizawa I doubt there was an ecosystem other than Godzilla and Angurius.

This why I believe we should all debate as both sides have several points to bring up as I hadn't even thought of a potential ecosystem.

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GMK, Final Wars and most of the Heisei Era didn't really say anything about anti-nukes and focused on other stuff.

Doesn't GFW at least pay lip service to it with the grandfather's speech?

GMK though absolutely does. There's a poster of the Lucky Dragon No. 5 in the background during Godzilla's initial landfall; Yuri mentions that those who died by atomic bombing partly make up the restless spirits controlling Godzilla; Godzilla's first atomic ray results a mushroom cloud, which is one of the most overt references to atomic weapons in any Godzilla movie.

GMK says that the entire WWII spirits were angry at Japan for forgetting the past. Anti-nuclear yes but it seemed more anti-war in general.

[Terasawa]

They destroyed Godzilla's recharge spot that he likely won't need again and considering how the radiation did Serizawa I doubt there was an ecosystem other than Godzilla and Angurius.

This why I believe we should all debate as both sides have several points to bring up as I hadn't even thought of a potential ecosystem.

This is the same film that gives us some info about Las Vegas (I think?) sprouting a rainforest or something; although the radiation was lethal to typical animal life, couldn't it have been beneficial to some other type of life? Just spitballing.

Also - nuclear weapons are so devastatingly powerful that it's unlikely that *just* the lost city was affected by its use. It was also detonated in the hollow earth, and underground, so realistically it would have resulted in some kind of tremors at the very least.

GMK says that the entire WWII spirits were angry at Japan for forgetting the past. Anti-nuclear yes but it seemed more anti-war in general.

That doesn't negate my other examples about GMK. Nevertheless, my point in mentioning that specific dialogue was that it's just one example of GMK discussing the negative use of nuclear weapons.

[LSD Jellyfish]

The thing about Godzilla's hero turn in the Showa movies is that the references to his nuclear origin are completely dropped. Those movies ignore the anti-nuclear message, but they don't complicate or contradict it, because it's not an aspect of their stories in the slightest.

Yeah but in a lot of those ways the films still work anti-nuclear messaging.

Godzilla vs. Megalon opens with nuclear testing destroying Godzilla and the other monsters. Megalon is sent up after an undersea/underground group of humans is gradually getting destroyed by nuclear weapons. Admittedly its the weakest part of the film that it gets forgotten about but it's definitely there.

[Major sssspielberg!]

It was brought up that Final Wars pays lip service to Godzilla being angered by nuclear damage or some such, which to me was one of the moments that really stands out for some reason. Perhaps it's the fact that it comes at a slowed down point in the film, actually being presented as a somber moment with the grandfather and his grandson, and Godzilla taking the time to purposely destroy a city. Maybe I'm just a sucker for Final Wars and I'm giving Kitamura too much credit.
Either way, Final Wars imo (for what that's worth lol) managed to integrate the anti-nuclear/superweapon aspect of the Godzilla series into a ridiculous action cartoon of a movie better than KOTM did with a script that arguably has more narrative merit than Final Wars.

[Malchik]

GMK says that the entire WWII spirits were angry at Japan for forgetting the past. Anti-nuclear yes but it seemed more anti-war in general.

The film wasn't even anti-war just anti-revisionary.

Also - nuclear weapons are so devastatingly powerful that it's unlikely that *just* the lost city was affected by its use. It was also detonated in the hollow earth, and underground, so realistically it would have resulted in some kind of tremors at the very least.

How many nuclear warheads detonated underwater/underground were particularly consequential to us above land dwellers. Have you been speaking to molepeople?

[Terasawa]

Also - nuclear weapons are so devastatingly powerful that it's unlikely that *just* the lost city was affected by its use. It was also detonated in the hollow earth, and underground, so realistically it would have resulted in some kind of tremors at the very least.

How many nuclear warheads detonated underwater/underground were particularly consequential to us above land dwellers. Have you been speaking to molepeople?

Do you not remember the plight of the Seatopians?

[Malchik]

Also - nuclear weapons are so devastatingly powerful that it's unlikely that *just* the lost city was affected by its use. It was also detonated in the hollow earth, and underground, so realistically it would have resulted in some kind of tremors at the very least.

How many nuclear warheads detonated underwater/underground were particularly consequential to us above land dwellers. Have you been speaking to molepeople?

Do you not remember the plight of the Seatopians?

Oh, we're talking movie logic. It gets hard to tell in these discussions. The Seatopians actually got a raw deal. Godzilla kicked their ass for defending themselves.