Could/Should "Americanization" be brought back?

[Tamura]

Something like that.

[eabaker]

Regarding the fake Asian accent, I thought part of that was due to the lack of certain sounds in the native Japanese. Meaning a dub including these sounds wouldn’t match well with the lip movements which would have lacked certain lip shapes for a lack of a better term. Therefore the lack of these sounds in the dialogue would also mimic stereotypical accents because of this. But I don’t really have a source for this, so I honestly don’t know how accurate this is.

Yeah, I remember at least one 60s-era dubbing artist (not sure which one now) talking about this. As I recall, it mostly applied to how dialogue was phrased, in order to avoid certain sounds, but wasn't a direct comment on the decision to use an accent.

[HedorahIsBestGirl]

What I don't understand, though, is why the Champion versions are not considered "butcherings" while many US versions are. The Champion versions, in my opinion, are legitimate examples of choppy, artless, hack editing meant to fit a tight program, and as a sweet bonus, at least three were edited on the original camera negatives. That's butchery. None of the Champion versions that I've seen offer a substantially unique experience. The editing is always extremely obvious and feels rushed. Compare Zinner's delicate tightening and rearranging of KKvsG to the coarsely chopped up nature of the Champion version, done on the original camera negative. Which is butchery? Am I to understand that the Champion versions get a pass due to national version elitism?

No, the Champion versions are "butcherings", too. Like many of the dubs, they have their place in history but I have no interest in watching them again when I have access to the original versions of the films. Now, there are alternate versions of films that are superior to the original theatrical release version; the Final Cut of Blade Runner, Apocalypse Now Redux and the extended versions of the Lord of the Rings trilogy are all examples. However, I feel that the vast majority of edits made to films when they are re-released worsen the film rather than improving it.

Peter Zinner's Americanized King Kong vs. Godzilla is a prime example of such butchery. Nothing was tightened for the better, nearly half of the scenes featuring the cast were cut out or greatly shortened, resulting in one of the bests casts of human characters in any Godzilla film coming across as underdeveloped and uninteresting. Aside from one throwaway line about the size of steaks, it's easy to forget that Osamu and Fumiko are actually siblings in the Zinner version. And how about Fumiko rushing off to find Kazuo because he was supposedly killed in some random plane crash, not because Godzilla destroyed the ship he was on? What was the point of that change?

But those are minor gripes. The two major issues I have with this version of KKvG are the replacement of Ifukube's score with mostly-unfitting stock music and the scenes with Eric Carter and Dr. Johnson. Unlike the scenes with Steve Martin in "Godzilla, King of the Monsters", which were worked in very well, the scenes with Carter and Johnson feel completely out of place and add nothing of value to the film, instead serving as irksome distractions from the main plot. Hardly a "tightened" version. Worse still, these scenes contain ridiculous claims such as Godzilla being a hybrid of a T-Rex and a Stegosaurus, and having a brain the size of a walnut, hilariously impossible facts that contribute to the American version of KKvG feeling farcical.

Lastly, I think people around here have no idea what non-fans would be interested in watching, given the option of different versions presented with appropriate context - a luxury 99% of the English versions have never enjoyed. It's incredibly easy to state "nobody except a handful of fans would want to watch that butchered version." How the fuck do you know, when they're being actively suppressed, not even mentioned as a single footnote in Toho's Criterion-released box? How the fuck do you know, unless you've talked to someone outside of this forum about them and gauged their interest level? How the fuck do you know, unless you've shown a friend a few dubbed versions with context? I have... some went over extremely well, some didn't.

Because I have, too. I grew up showing these movies to my friends. When I was young, I owned the English dubs on VHS and my friends would sit around and mock both the accents of the dubbed voice actors and the fact that their lips often kept moving after their lines was finished. It made me feel embarrassed to be a fan of these movies. Childish, sure, but it was one of the factors that contributed to me preferring subs over dubs.

When I grew older and managed to get my hands on Sony/TriStar and Classic Media's DVDs, I started showing the sub-titled Japanese tracks to my friends and guess what? The mockery stopped. Sure, individual scenes like Dr. Otani's suicide in Destroy All Monsters would still be subject to snickering, but on the whole they enjoyed the films a lot more. Same goes for a few members of my family, although my father still prefers the dubs he grew up with.

There are good and bad dubs, just like there are good and bad subtitles. Some people don't tolerate dubbing at all, and some dismiss subtitles completely. Don't slam the door on potential, wider interest in dubbed, alternate versions just because you don't care about them and aren't comfortable showing them to people, giving them added context that many of us hardcores know by heart.

In all fairness, I don't hate most dubs, I just personally prefer my Godzilla to be Japanese and sub-titled. The only dubbed/edited versions of Godzilla movies I actively despise are:
- "Gigantis the Fire-Monster"
- American "King Kong vs. Godzilla"
- "The Terror of Godzilla"
Otherwise, I don't really give a shit if people prefer dubs or subs. However, in my experience, most general viewers prefer subtitles. In fact, it seems to me that most of the people who prefer to watch the English dubs of Godzilla films are the older fans who grew up with these versions before the Japanese versions were readily available in the US. That makes sense.

I just don't think that new releases of Godzilla films need to be "Americanized." I think the age of "Americanization" is over. That's all.

[Terasawa]

The only dubs I actively despise are:
...
- "The Terror of Godzilla"

That's not "a dub," that's an alternate, edited version of the film that uses the English-dubbed soundtrack. Presumably you hate it because of how it was aggressively and stupidly edited and not because it was dubbed. (Not to mention that dubbed soundtrack was done for an uncut version of the film, not the '78 minute version you're referencing.)

[HedorahIsBestGirl]

The only dubs I actively despise are:
...
- "The Terror of Godzilla"

That's not "a dub," that's an alternate, edited version of the film that uses the English-dubbed soundtrack. Presumably you hate it because of how it was aggressively and stupidly edited and not because it was dubbed. (Not to mention that dubbed soundtrack was done for an uncut version of the film, not the '78 minute version you're referencing.)

I corrected my language. I often simply refer to English-language versions of Godzilla movies as "dubs", which I know is not entirely accurate. And yes, I hate it because of the atrocious edits.

[Tamura]

I’m not talking about the writing, the stock music or the added American scenes when I say that the American version has some strengths. I don’t think it’s great, either. It has a lot of big problems that overshadow these strengths. I’m right with you about all of those issues.

What I’m talking about are tons of benevolent trims and slight rearrangements of certain shots in different scenes. The first battle between Kong and Godzilla plays a bit more smoothly in the US version, I think. The helicopter sighting Godzilla breaking out of the iceberg is cut a lot more sensibly. The fact that nobody talks about these edits tells me that they are invisible and succeeded. I know there are many other examples, just can’t think of them. The editing of the Seahawk footage into one scene gets brought up every now and then, being a much more obvious edit, and even in this scene is a vast number of trims nobody talks about. The cuts aren’t random or aimless... if you go through and find all of these little, invisible edits, it becomes evident on close analysis that there is a logic behind them, and they seem completely reasonable to me. If we want to call the version a butchery, can we at least agree it’s a butchery that situationally has a certain logic and attention to detail in terms of cutting?

I think the way discussions inevitably become limited to the most obvious or blasphemous edits of an alternate version keeps the discourse about alternate versions boring and surface level. I’ve heard about all of the major issues with Gigantis, KKvsG, or whichever version it’ll be tomorrow. It’s time to move on. There is much more interesting analysis that can be done than merely pointing at the biggest flaws or the biggest strengths. It’s been done to death. I’ve never seen a single discussion about the foley work or realistic acoustics in certain older dubs, like Rodan. I just want to have a reason to come back here and, after a stimulating discussion, find these films and alternate versions exciting enough to give them a fresh, close viewing.

If we decide we can only really talk about the most obvious weakness or strength of a piece of media, and nothing more, and we apply this to discussions about the films in general, we’d just talk about the stock footage in Godzilla’s Revenge on a loop for twenty years. Oh wait...

And as for Terror of Godzilla, I feel like this is the ultimate dubbed version scapegoat around here. It comes up half the time someone evangelizes about the historical or creative value of English versions. It’s the easiest possible target - an existing English version cut for violence and swearing. It’s an atrocious, artless edit. We know. Not all versions are created equal, not all versions are important.

[Chrispy_G]

My general take is that I like having the original versions. Dead is my childhood obsession with "all kinds of different versions of the same movie" fueled by Star Wars Special Editions, different versions of Dawn of the Dead, Army of Darkness, Extended Editions of Lord of the Rings and the "Unrated/Extended/Director's cut" DVD boom.

I'm very much in a camp of "the film is the film", although I do not dismiss other versions blindly.

So I am in favor of the original versions, and I'm perfectly happy with "straight Dubs". Like, Shin Godzilla....after the theatrical Subbed viewing, I outright only watch Dubbed because the Dub is quite good and the film is SO dialogue heavy that I appreciate just watching and listening instead of all of the reading(And I am by no means a slow reader).

In the case of alternative versions....I outright prefer Godzilla 2000 over Godzilla 2000: Millennium. It is the very pumped up sound design, extra pieces of music(not replacement, just additional music, some of them classic themes), and the effective tightening of the pace...it makes the entire experience feel so much more bigger and theatrical than the other Millennium films.

If EVERY US Dub was done like Shin, a professional group giving a generally well-performed and generally faithful straight dub of the material....I would be very happy.

If EVERY US Version was done like Godzilla 2000, an aim to truly tighten and enhance the pace, and aim to punch up the sound design of the film, and splice in some extra pieces of music....various things to just give the film a truly improved sense of pace and energy. Not throwing in weird bits of new footage, replacing the score and doing things that sort of lessen or water down the film.

The audio commentary for G2K is so enlightening, because they highlight how every change was Toho/Okawara approved, and how few scenes were actually cut....a lot of it amounted to just trimming and tightening existing scenes and moments. "You can shake a film and 10 minutes will fall out" was the mantra, and it worked. The extra music and overhauled sound design also helped give the film more energy, and the Dub has a serious charm to it even if some of the dialogue changes are not necessarily for the better.

Making something shorter does not always make something 'better paced' or 'tightened'. Some 90 minute films are gruelingly tedious experiences while some 2.5 hour movies just feel like they fly by.

Outside of that, Godzilla, King of the Monsters! Gets an approval from me, purely because I think that is a case where, no matter the opinion of the alternate cut, THAT is one where the place in history and what it did for the 'cultural' impact of Godzilla is so important that it completely outweighs any opinion of the film itself. Although I find it to be a really good, albeit lesser, alternate read of the original film. The Steve Martin aspect gives it a sort of documentary-slant to it, his noir-esque narration and passive participation in the plot just makes us feel like him...watching the inevitable and harrowing events unfold without an ability to change or improve things at all

I accept the US version of King Kong vs Godzilla because that was probably my most watched VHS tape and because the rights-issues with that film pretty much means that US cut is NEVER going away. I do not find it to be the better version of the movie at all. The US cut also has a lot of sort of lore/canon 'poison pills' that drive me nuts....like all of the "facts" espoused about Godzilla in the additional scenes.

For me...virtually all of the English Cuts having something akin to these sort of "poison pills" that kind of kill it for me....OR the 'US versions' are so insignificantly different that I find it hardly worth watching them at all.

Godzilla Raids Again - Godzilla being "gigantis" and having the Anguirus Roar absolutely kills any hope of me respecting this version.
Godzilla vs The Thing - I love the frontier missile sequence, but I can't stand any utterance of calling Mothra "the thing", it drives me as insane as Godzilla being called "Gigantis"
Ghidrah - Changing the title aside, the near-total replacement of the Ifukube score kills it for me.
Astro-Monster - This is one I hardly consider to be 'another version' at all, we have the English Dub with Adams' spoken dialogue that works with the original cut, and I like that. Getting like 70 seconds of footage cut and a note written in English instead of Japanese just doesn't have any "ooh, we gotta make sure we check out this alt-take on the film to get a different experience"
Sea Monster - Again, I watched the VHS of the US edit. FOR ME the differences don't justify its own existence
Son of Godzilla, Destroy All Monsters, Godzilla's Revenge, and Smog Monster ALL fall in the same range......those US changes/alterations just aren't worth even really considering "different versions" to me.

Godzilla 1985 I have a bit of a soft-spot for just for Raymond Burr's return and his "place" in overall Godzilla lore, him returning 30 years later to re-Americanize a Godzilla film like he did the original is cool....although he isn't NEARLY as effectively worked into the film as he was in the original, which is a shame.

[Tamura]

I’m glad you were able to point out that most US versions are lightly edited.

...localizations of foreign films - when handled by sufficiently talented and resourceful people - sometimes go above and beyond the primary goal of translating/adapting the film... some, as a secondary goal, improve upon the editing, music scoring and the structure of the film in general, sometimes in subtle ways that you likely wouldn't notice unless you directly compared every scene in the film, showing an incredible amount of thought, attention to detail, and good intention. Many of these versions offer an interesting, alternate experience beyond mere translation and adaptation for the US/world audience...

I thought just the phrasing of this statement would make it obvious that I’m not talking about MZ, or Godzilla vs the Sea Monster, or Godzilla’s Revenge. There are LOTS of US versions that were done straight. The number that got thoroughly reworked isn’t small, either. And I’m not just talking about Godzilla movies. I’m talking about I Bombed Pearl Harbor, and Rodan, and The Human Vapor, and Gammera the Invincible, and many others.

All I’m saying is that some of the versions that are heavily altered - of which there is more than a handful of examples - have at least some interesting, thoughtful editing choices. That’s it. That is literally it, boiled down to a sentence. I didn’t expect this to be so controversial that it would provoke a debate.

I’m not even praising the versions by saying this. I think Ghidrah the Three-Headed Monster’s US version is a confusing, mishandled abomination, but they made a couple interesting changes. Many US versions I otherwise don’t like or don’t have any strong feelings about have obscure changes that I wish would get discussed more, whether they’re good or bad, because it makes for interesting, fresh discussion.

I don’t revisit versions and enjoy them all in the same exact way. Not every version or dub has the same appeal... it’s not just about the edits. The US version of Goke, Body Snatcher from Hell is literally just a red title card replacing the opening credits sequence.

Not all versions are of equal importance or interest solely as alternate versions. Some are technologically interesting - Latitude Zero was released in IB Technicolor in the US, a late release in the process which would stop being used in the US a few years later... imagine how it must’ve looked? Some are interesting because they feature dramatically improved re-dubs, like the Fukuda Island films, or because they were released uncut at a time when the vast majority were drastically re-edited, likes The Mysterians. Some had fascinating releases - Megalon’s advertising, for example, or the virtually simultaneous TV and theatrical release of TOMG, with the chance of potentially seeing it in some regions in a theater and on TV the same week. Isn’t that crazy?

The versions themselves may not always be unique in many ways, or even good, but the version itself is just one part of it. It’s the history of Godzilla in America that is interesting. What Godzilla film would I have likely seen on TV or in theaters in my hometown in 1970, or 1971? What kinds of promotional materials were used? This is the history of Godzilla in the market Toho was most interested in, that Toho got the most creative/financial backing from, and that received 100% of versions containing unique footage shot in Japan. This is a very western genre, continually informed by western tastes, refined when released in the US to better suit western tastes, and sometimes informed by the way US versions were handled. Without Burr, we wouldn’t have gotten Nick Adams.

The American side of this genre has so many dimensions to it. It’s interesting and it’s important. It shouldn’t be hard to prove this, especially to other fans. It’s not like we’re talking about releases and versions of Godzilla movies in countries irrelevant to the style, technological development and the worldwide dissemination of the series. The genre is influenced by American creature features. The series - and Toho films, in general - were constantly being improved and changed using new American technological developments, like ‘scope, stereo, the Oxberry printer, Eastman color, etc. Many US versions can be considered de facto "world" versions, since some of the films were either imported to the rest of the world via the US or were controlled by US companies throughout the world, outside of Japan or East Asia.

And as I said before, I think drastic re-edits of future films with exclusive Toho-shot footage would be interesting. I doubt it’ll happen, but it would offer something fresh to the discussion. It is known that some heavily altered US versions directly inspired the content of later films... it’d be interesting if Toho let that happen again. And I think dubs that don’t obviously sound dubbed should be brought back. Bring back realistic acoustics and foley!

[Space Hunter M]

"The film is the film" is such a nonsense philosophy.

Is the purest version of Police Story 2 the initial unfinished, overly long extended version that the copyright holder currently uses for all markets, or is it the streamlined, director-preferred Hong Kong theatrical release cut?

[eabaker]

"The film is the film" is such a nonsense philosophy.

Is the purest version of Police Story 2 the initial unfinished, overly long extended version that the copyright holder currently uses for all markets, or is it the streamlined, director-preferred Hong Kong theatrical release cut?

Right? A film is a remarkably fluid beast.

Which version ofStar Wars is the film? The one that was released theatrically in 1977? The one that was re-titled to have a place in the growing franchise but otherwise unaltered? The LaserDisc release that cleaned up the picture and compositing quality without modifying the content? The theatrical re-release that the director considered a better representation of his original intention? One of the subsequent home releases which he further "perfected"?

What about Black Sabbath? Different footage was shot on-set for the two different versions, and the American release contains a vocal performance from the movie's star that the "director approved" Italian cut lacks.

[Space Hunter M]

What about Black Sabbath? Different footage was shot on-set for the two different versions, and the American release contains a vocal performance from the movie's star that the "director approved" Italian cut lacks.

To take that one step further, what about Nosferatu 1979?

Is the German version, or simultaneously shot English version with all of the original performers speaking their own lines the "original"?

[Chrispy_G]

"The film is the film" is such a nonsense philosophy.

Is the purest version of Police Story 2 the initial unfinished, overly long extended version that the copyright holder currently uses for all markets, or is it the streamlined, director-preferred Hong Kong theatrical release cut?

I wasn't saying it as a be-all end-all. I said that I GENERALLY have a 'the film is the film' philosophy without just dismissing alternate versions outright.

George Lucas always made sure that only one version of the original Star Wars trilogy was ever in circulation at a given time. I disagree with his idea that he should keep revising and only releasing the most revised version....but I DO find value in not 'hunting' for different versions.

The idea that anyone who decides to sit down and watch a film is going to get the same experience does have some value. For me it was always disappointing to find out with any film that the one I saw first was the 'worst version' and that I could have been lucky enough to see the superior version.

[Space Hunter M]

If EVERY US Dub was done like Shin, a professional group giving a generally well-performed and generally faithful straight dub of the material....I would be very happy.

Funimation's Shin Godzilla is an absolutely useless gesture that ridgedly adheres to the provided translation without going back to the original Japanese itself, giving us such hilarious gems as an overracted "DON'T GO TO PIECES!" from our hero Rando Yaguchi's miscast VA.

[Chrispy_G]

Each to their own. I like that Dub a lot.

[Destoroyah of Worlds]

Does no one have a problem with Godzilla being called "Gojira" throughout the entirety of Shin Godzilla's dub?

I'm worried all future dubs might do that.

[Jetty_Jags]

It’s Gojira you moron

Just kidding. But in reality I think it kind of works because it’s the name of the creature from Odo island mythology, so it’d make sense for it to continue to stay that way. But I’m curious as to what you don’t like about it.

[eabaker]

But in Shin its a significant detail that Goro Maki chose to identify the monster primarily by the Americanized name "Godzilla."

[Jetty_Jags]

I didn’t remember that, thanks for informing me. Is that a dub specific detail or does it carry over in the original audio as well? Because if it did than he should be Godzilla in both.

[eabaker]

I didn’t remember that, thanks for informing me. Is that a dub specific detail or does it carry over in the original audio as well? Because if it did than he should be Godzilla in both.

That's mentioned in the Japanese dialogue.

[Terasawa]

Yeah. Shin is a unique case where both names had to be used to preserve the filmmakers intentions. No one should worry that "Gojira" is going to be the primary English name going forward.

And yeah, I hated the way they did that, but I suppose the only alternative was to rewrite the dialogue so that everybody uses the name "Godzilla" from the get-go. But with Toho being Toho that might not have been an option.