Toho's George Lucas Tendencies

For discussions covering more than one Toho film or show that span across more than one “era.”
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Terasawa
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Re: Toho continues calculated erasure of classic Godzilla dubs

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Malchik wrote:Had Toho not recorded English dubs for all their Godzilla films for international distribution but most American companies just wanted to make their own? I thought Toho had international prints and dubs made for all their Godzilla films.
Outside of a few films in the late 1950s, Toho wasn’t preparing its own English versions of its films until about 1961. It didn’t become standard procedure to have the Godzilla films dubbed for export until the mid-60s, so there are no export/international versions of:
  • Godzilla (54)
  • Godzilla Raids Again
  • Mothra vs. Godzilla
  • Ghidorah
  • All Monsters Attack
An export version of King Kong vs. Godzilla likely exists although it probably hasn’t been seen anywhere in decades. There’s some evidence that a similar version Invasion of Astro-Monster might exist, although it’s unconfirmed.

As mentioned, Toho was having the Godzilla films dubbed (first in Tokyo, then in Hong Kong) regularly starting with Ebirah. Except for All Monsters Attack, every Godzilla movie from 1966 to 2004 has an export version commissioned by Toho. Since 2004, all Japanese Godzilla films have been dubbed by their American distributors.
Save All Dubs. Sub All Tohos.

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Re: Toho continues calculated erasure of classic Godzilla dubs

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The official stream of the King Bros. version of Rodan has been quietly removed from YouTube.
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Re: Toho continues calculated erasure of classic Godzilla dubs

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Its a shame they are working to eliminate some of these versions. I am a completest, and every now and again, I do get the itch to watch these films in the way I was first exposed to them.

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Re: Toho continues calculated erasure of classic Godzilla dubs

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I guess Toho’s okay with merchandise that reveals the existence of Gigantis provided they change the designs on the poster.

https://tokusatsunetwork.com/2020/01/pr ... -t-shirts/
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Re: Toho continues calculated erasure of classic Godzilla dubs

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MaxRebo320 wrote:I guess Toho’s okay with merchandise that reveals the existence of Gigantis provided they change the designs on the poster.

https://tokusatsunetwork.com/2020/01/pr ... -t-shirts/
All three have changed designs.
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Re: Toho continues calculated erasure of classic Godzilla dubs

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This is either Toho wanting strict control over the likeness of their characters, or a less harmful part of the "Toho fearful of litigation from every conceivable angle" nexus... for all we know, maybe they're afraid some Czech artist will come out of the woodwork and sue.
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Re: Toho continues calculated erasure of classic Godzilla dubs

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_JNavs_ wrote:The MV is like cheap imitation crabmeat, it tastes good, but it isn't real, while Shin is kino peak Japanese performance.
Rodan95 wrote:The Shobijin are sat on by a fatass explorer and killed. Mothra is pissed and destroys Japan.

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Re: Toho continues calculated erasure of classic Godzilla dubs

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God even the iconic GKOTM poster design isn't safe.
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Re: Toho continues calculated erasure of classic Godzilla dubs

Post by GodzillaBurgh »

Goddamn, Toho is like the opposite of George Lucas. Rather than adding pointless B.S., they're just destroying any version of a film but the original cut.
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Re: Toho continues calculated erasure of classic Godzilla dubs

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It's just T-Shirts, guys...
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Re: Toho continues calculated erasure of classic Godzilla dubs

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Exactly why is losing some of these dubbings such an issue?
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Re: Toho continues calculated erasure of classic Godzilla dubs

Post by miguelnuva »

tyrantgoji wrote:Exactly why is losing some of these dubbings such an issue?
Mothra vs Godzilla loses the frontier missile scene for one and that scene is one of ones that established how invincible Godzilla was.
You can put it on my Tombstone Mothra vs Godzilla> Gojira
my personal take

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Re: Toho continues calculated erasure of classic Godzilla dubs

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tyrantgoji wrote:Exactly why is losing some of these dubbings such an issue?
You’ve got more than three pages to read why but maybe start here.
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Re: Toho continues calculated erasure of classic Godzilla dubs

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miguelnuva wrote:
tyrantgoji wrote:Exactly why is losing some of these dubbings such an issue?
Mothra vs Godzilla loses the frontier missile scene for one and that scene is one of ones that established how invincible Godzilla was.
Well yeah that kinda stinks, and i'm gonna miss it for sure..but i'm talking about all the dubs as a whole,. This of all things should not be such a big deal.
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Re: Toho continues calculated erasure of classic Godzilla dubs

Post by miguelnuva »

tyrantgoji wrote:
miguelnuva wrote:
tyrantgoji wrote:Exactly why is losing some of these dubbings such an issue?
Mothra vs Godzilla loses the frontier missile scene for one and that scene is one of ones that established how invincible Godzilla was.
Well yeah that kinda stinks, and i'm gonna miss it for sure..but i'm talking about all the dubs as a whole,. This of all things should not be such a big deal.
A lot of people like watching Godzilla dubbed.
You can put it on my Tombstone Mothra vs Godzilla> Gojira
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Re: Toho continues calculated erasure of classic Godzilla dubs

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tyrantgoji wrote:Exactly why is losing some of these dubbings such an issue?
Some? More like nearly all of the US versions. And of course it's an issue, otherwise the topic wouldn't be brought up so much. And it's not just dubbing that Toho is kicking to the curb... it is unique material - including footage shot in their own studios - and unique edits that they are kicking to the curb. There are lots of threads about this. There are many US versions that are horrendously preserved, and that includes the ones lucky enough to have been released on video, too. These are the configurations of these films that were first shown theatrically in the US, where most of the fandom is. Is that enough?

Without these versions, there would be no US fandom and there would probably be no worldwide fandom... the films probably wouldn't have been as common worldwide since the rest of the world often got the films via the US versions. This was the case for Rodan, The Mysterians, King Kong vs. Godzilla, Godzilla vs The Thing and others. There probably wouldn't have been much of a kaiju genre at all if it weren't for the films' international success, sometimes via the US version or an international derivative of one. It is by way of the US versions and other international variants that the films entered international pop culture, not the subtitled Japanese versions... the US and worldwide versions often give context to all of the writing, reviews, parodies, and references appearing in worldwide pop culture ever since the films were released. Is any of this enough justification?

I've said it before, but I'll say it again... I am astounded by how difficult it is to convince people in my own fandom of the importance of this stuff. If anybody could be convinced, you'd think it'd be hardcore fans taking time out of their day to post on a message board. I feel like I'd have an easier time giving justification to the preservation of Godzilla vs. The Thing to a fellow archivist than to a fellow fan. I've tried hard and come up with complex defenses that sometimes seem lofty when I re-read them, and I've also tried to trust my gut and come up with simple defenses that I'd think anyone would get behind without much difficulty. It never seems to work, no matter what, and I am just stunned.

Why is the burden of justification always on the versions that were shown in the US, some of which became the basic layout seen throughout the world for decades? Wouldn't that make it just as important a version as the original? Is it that hard to accept something as revolutionary as "major versions"?
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Re: Toho continues calculated erasure of classic Godzilla dubs

Post by Kaiju-King42 »

To play devil's advocate for just a moment, let us not forget bad dubbing effectively smeared Godzilla's reputation in the west. And considering that's not the fault of the actual original films, I can understand why Toho, in their effort to revolutionize the franchise and bring it to a wider market, wouldn't be enthusiastic about adding fuel to that unfortunate perception.
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Re: Toho continues calculated erasure of classic Godzilla dubs

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Kaiju-King42 wrote:To play devil's advocate for just a moment, let us not forget bad dubbing effectively smeared Godzilla's reputation in the west. And considering that's not the fault of the actual original films, I can understand why Toho, in their effort to revolutionize the franchise and bring it to a wider market, wouldn't be enthusiastic about adding fuel to that unfortunate perception.
You could also say "cheesy special effects" smeared Godzilla's reputation in America. Is that an argument for Toho removing the films from distribution outright? And not all of the dubbing was bad. GKOTM was one of the worst dub jobs, but Toho allows it to be seen, along with a number of really bad international dub jobs. Dubbing has nothing to do with it. They're just afraid of litigation, which is hilarious considering how lawsuit-happy they are.
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Re: Toho continues calculated erasure of classic Godzilla dubs

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^Okay fine, you convinced me, this stuff is really important and shouldn't be lost..but you act like the apocalypse is gonna happen if they do get taken down. And knowing how incredibly stubborn Toho is and how fast they are with stuff, i'm just gonna come out and say we should just bite the bullet, stash up all the copies we can save yet and then just admit defeat. There's absolutely no stopping this.
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Re: Toho continues calculated erasure of classic Godzilla dubs

Post by UltramanGoji »

Tamura wrote:This is either Toho wanting strict control over the likeness of their characters, or a less harmful part of the "Toho fearful of litigation from every conceivable angle" nexus... for all we know, maybe they're afraid some Czech artist will come out of the woodwork and sue.
Or it's just "the original designs aren't good enough for product and it'd be cool to see them remixed with proper designs".

I really want to agree entirely but when people are so obnoxiously apocalyptic about it, it's irritating. Yes, I know it's difficult to convince people to care but when people act so dramatic about it, it's easy to see why most (adult) fans don't pay it any attention or care.
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