Toho continues calculated erasure of classic Godzilla dubs

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Re: Toho continues calculated erasure of classic Godzilla dubs

Postby Terasawa » Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:07 am

Destoroyah of Worlds wrote:The dub of Son of Godzilla is my favorite of all time.


Which one? There are two. (Starting at 1:35 in video below.)



If they erase that, i'll be pissed.


The export dub (the first one in the attached video) is going to continue to be heard. The version created for the film's U.S. release (the second clip) has been effectively disowned since 2004 and unreleased since 1997.
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Re: Toho continues calculated erasure of classic Godzilla dubs

Postby Tyrant_Lizard_King » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:02 pm

Destoroyah of Worlds wrote:The dub of Son of Godzilla is my favorite of all time. If they erase that, i'll be pissed.


Well we do still have Omgitsgodzilla and Co.s efforts.
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Re: Toho continues calculated erasure of classic Godzilla dubs

Postby miguelnuva » Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:20 am

If Toho wants to get rid of the American cuts to fix Godzilla's image worldwide they're out of luck. If Shin and kotm didn't fix his image redubs won't do it.
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Re: Toho continues calculated erasure of classic Godzilla dubs

Postby LSD Jellyfish » Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:44 pm

miguelnuva wrote:If Toho wants to get rid of the American cuts to fix Godzilla's image worldwide they're out of luck. If Shin and kotm didn't fix his image redubs won't do it.

Shin Godzilla did fantastic in America for its range of release in America. KOTM did okay.

It’s funny you left Godzilla 2014 out of the picture.

There’s nothing wrong with “Godzilla’s image” in the west. People know who and why he is.
_JNavs_ wrote:The MV is like cheap imitation crabmeat, it tastes good, but it isn't real, while Shin is kino peak Japanese performance.

Rodan95 wrote:The Shobijin are sat on by a fatass explorer and killed. Mothra is pissed and destroys Japan.

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Re: Toho continues calculated erasure of classic Godzilla dubs

Postby eabaker » Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:59 pm

LSD Jellyfish wrote:
miguelnuva wrote:If Toho wants to get rid of the American cuts to fix Godzilla's image worldwide they're out of luck. If Shin and kotm didn't fix his image redubs won't do it.

Shin Godzilla did fantastic in America for its range of release in America. KOTM did okay.

It’s funny you left Godzilla 2014 out of the picture.

There’s nothing wrong with “Godzilla’s image” in the west. People know who and why he is.


And considering that most of what people seem to like about KotM is that it reminds them (for reasons quite beyond my ken) of the Showa era movies that are so widely mocked in the Western world, wouldn't KotM be working against any attempts to "fix" Godzilla's image?
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Re: Toho continues calculated erasure of classic Godzilla dubs

Postby miguelnuva » Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:00 pm

LSD Jellyfish wrote:
miguelnuva wrote:If Toho wants to get rid of the American cuts to fix Godzilla's image worldwide they're out of luck. If Shin and kotm didn't fix his image redubs won't do it.

Shin Godzilla did fantastic in America for its range of release in America. KOTM did okay.

It’s funny you left Godzilla 2014 out of the picture.

There’s nothing wrong with “Godzilla’s image” in the west. People know who and why he is.


They did money wise but people still bring up the 60's rubber suits destroying cardboard cities.

I don't expect Godzilla to ever be big huge must see movies but there is still a stigma that the franchise faces from the GA they serious entries like Shin and big budget entries like G14 and Kotm haven't broken yet.

Closest thing I can compare it to would be Batman. Batman in the 60's was goofy and had a bright blue and grey suit. Now he's dark, brooding and wears black and dark gray due to Batman 89 and the Dark Knight and while people remember Adam West it's not the main thing people go to first when thinking Batman.

I honestly feel the showa series has made the biggest impact when shaping Godzilla.

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eabaker wrote:
LSD Jellyfish wrote:
miguelnuva wrote:If Toho wants to get rid of the American cuts to fix Godzilla's image worldwide they're out of luck. If Shin and kotm didn't fix his image redubs won't do it.

Shin Godzilla did fantastic in America for its range of release in America. KOTM did okay.

It’s funny you left Godzilla 2014 out of the picture.

There’s nothing wrong with “Godzilla’s image” in the west. People know who and why he is.


And considering that most of what people seem to like about KotM is that it reminds them (for reasons quite beyond my ken) of the Showa era movies that are so widely mocked in the Western world, wouldn't KotM be working against any attempts to "fix" Godzilla's image?


Only thing Showa about Kotm is Godzilla being a clear cut heroic monster, the amount of monsters and how they Titans interact.
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Re: Toho continues calculated erasure of classic Godzilla dubs

Postby LSD Jellyfish » Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:42 pm

Only idiots, who recycle the same decades old jokes, and self-hating fans still make the rubber suits remarks. Compare to how widely known Godzilla is in America now, compared to 10-15 years ago.The internet is a thing now. More people more then ever have been exposed and have seen Godzilla films. Whether they like them or not is completely on them.

If I had to guess, the "rebranding" has to do with a few factors:
-Making some of the dubbed films more accurate to their source material.
While there's certainly merit to a lot of the choices the dubs and American cuts made, there are a lot of things occasionally thrown in that muddle the movies and make them strange/misleading. A good example, and one I actually personally love, is the ten minute "re-cap" of the Showa Series in Terror of MechaGodzilla's American cut. The "re-cap" has some very strange visual cues, such as the implication that Kumonga was a monster sent by alien invaders. In addition, many of these cuts are fine, they do remove/censor things, such as Katsura's breasts, or the ending. To be clear, I'm not saying that these cuts should be "erased", but I think it's completely understandable why Toho would want to re-dub and re-release more homogenized versions of the films.

-Ego/Rightful Ownership
Let's be clear, Godzilla is Toho's property. You can debate all you want about American companies involvement in the series, and helping popularize the films. But, in the end, they created Godzilla. It makes sense that they would want to reign in control over older entries, and not have to give "credit" or share some sort of honor for creating Godzilla with a random company from back in the day. I think it's wrong on principle, but hey it makes sense.

Bear in mind, all of this is my own speculation. We don't even have hard evidence that the erasure thing is even real, or that Toho is being as nefarious as people want you to believe in context. When we start actually seeing release dates for newly dubbed versions of older Godzilla films then we will know.
_JNavs_ wrote:The MV is like cheap imitation crabmeat, it tastes good, but it isn't real, while Shin is kino peak Japanese performance.

Rodan95 wrote:The Shobijin are sat on by a fatass explorer and killed. Mothra is pissed and destroys Japan.

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Re: Toho continues calculated erasure of classic Godzilla dubs

Postby miguelnuva » Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:48 pm

I'm all for new dubs and more faithful cuts to the showa series. My argument is don't get rid of Kotm 56 just because your giving me a new dub of Gojira 54. I would love to see Godzilla raids again dubbed but I also still want access to Gigantis and Godzilla vs the Thing is the first movie I felt Godzilla was not only a world, threat but also he was truly invincible.

I've held a stance forna while that my dream would be showa releases where we have orginal Japanese versions with subs, international dub versions and American cuts.

Hell as insignificant as it would be I'd like to watch Godzilla on Monster Island or Godzilla vs the Cosmic monster one day even though title cards aren't as important.
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Re: Toho continues calculated erasure of classic Godzilla dubs

Postby JAGzilla » Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:41 am

Is it practical to keep all these alternate versions floating around? Having, say, three or four different versions of a given movie on the same disk or set of disks seems like it should drive the cost of that release up. The average impulse buyer is unlikely to want to pay for three versions of the same movie, and only a small fraction of even the fandom is going to be swayed by marketing for some ancient dub. "All-new accurate dub ft. your favorite anime voice actors" is clearly going to appeal to more people today than "the classic dub you remember from the Sixties, warts and all."

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Re: Toho continues calculated erasure of classic Godzilla dubs

Postby LSD Jellyfish » Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:46 am

JAGzilla wrote:Is it practical to keep all these alternate versions floating around? Having, say, three or four different versions of a given movie on the same disk or set of disks seems like it should drive the cost of that release up. The average impulse buyer is unlikely to want to pay for three versions of the same movie, and only a small fraction of even the fandom is going to be swayed by marketing for some ancient dub. "All-new accurate dub ft. your favorite anime voice actors" is clearly going to appeal to more people today than "the classic dub you remember from the Sixties, warts and all."

It’s important for media history and preservation, but I agree with what you’re saying. I really don’t think it’s possible to expect Toho to keep up with all this.

I do think the “anime voice actor” thing is really dumb. For better and for worse, and wildly depending on what the circumstances were, dubs didn’t all come from a very small pool of actors.
_JNavs_ wrote:The MV is like cheap imitation crabmeat, it tastes good, but it isn't real, while Shin is kino peak Japanese performance.

Rodan95 wrote:The Shobijin are sat on by a fatass explorer and killed. Mothra is pissed and destroys Japan.

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Re: Toho continues calculated erasure of classic Godzilla dubs

Postby Tamura » Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:11 pm

JAGzilla wrote:some ancient dub.

Have any of you ever thought that just about any tired, easy judgment of the dubs can be just as easily applied to the films themselves? For most people living in the US during the 20th century, the dubbed versions WERE the films, and the films are ancient.

Also, absolutely nobody is calling for every last English version to be released on video in its complete form. Some are much higher priority than others. Some only have a unique credit sequence or prologue, which still makes for a good extra. Some could just be an audio track option. You can economically present all that is unique from every remotely significant version. You don't have to be extremely creative to pull this off.

The truth is we have a niche subgenre in which hamstringer Toho has been able to render completely unthinkable the idea of extras like alternate versions, or even US trailers - the kind of things that grace Euro trash movies on new BRs every month without any fans even begging for them for years. I can understand why you seek justification for not including these features, because there isn't a precedent for it in releases of kaiju films. Other genres have it 100x better. Look to new releases of Euro trash and '70s - '80s porn to have a better idea of how even an absolute bottom of the barrel, nigh unwatchable cult movie should be released on video, not to hamstrung North American releases of Toho films. Toho imposes an extremely low bar on US distributors, so again, I can see where you're coming from.

Well we do still have Omgitsgodzilla and Co.s efforts.


Talk to omgitsgodzilla and anyone else who has done restorations, and ask us how feel about our copies continuing to be the best that's out there. I always considered my restorations to be placeholders until an actual restoration from newly scanned film occurs... they are rough around the edges and have necessarily uneven picture quality due to the poor quality of previous DVD and VHS sources. Omg has stated before that restoration of the US versions shouldn't be a duty that falls to the fans. None of us are happy with the current state of affairs.
Last edited by Tamura on Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:26 pm, edited 20 times in total.
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Re: Toho continues calculated erasure of classic Godzilla dubs

Postby JAGzilla » Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:22 pm

Yes, the films are ancient and forgotten, hardly available to the mainstream since the '90s and not even on the radar of today's kids and twenty-somethings. They don't remember the dubs as anything but old cheese and would be unlikely to change that stance if exposed to them. New, for most people, is automatically better.

For the record, I absolutely do want to see the dubs preserved, I'm just arguing that it's not something that Toho has any real financial reason to prioritize. Very few people care. You do make a good point that other movies get better treatment and apparently money is still being made, but that's just unfortunately not how current Toho operates.

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Re: Toho continues calculated erasure of classic Godzilla dubs

Postby LSD Jellyfish » Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:04 pm

Tamura wrote:
JAGzilla wrote:some ancient dub.

Have any of you ever thought that just about any tired, easy judgment of the dubs can be just as easily applied to the films themselves? For most people living in the US during the 20th century, the dubbed versions WERE the films, and the films are ancient.

Also, absolutely nobody is calling for every last English version to be released on video in its complete form. Some are much higher priority than others. Some only have a unique credit sequence or prologue, which still makes for a good extra. Some could just be an audio track option. You can economically present all that is unique from every remotely significant version. You don't have to be extremely creative to pull this off.

The truth is we have a niche subgenre in which hamstringer Toho has been able to render completely unthinkable the idea of extras like alternate versions, or even US trailers - the kind of things that grace Euro trash movies on new BRs every month without any fans even begging for them for years. I can understand why you seek justification for not including these features, because there isn't a precedent for it in releases of kaiju films. Other genres have it 100x better. Look to new releases of Euro trash and '70s - '80s porn to have a better idea of how even an absolute bottom of the barrel, nigh unwatchable cult movie should be released on video, not to hamstrung North American releases of Toho films. Toho imposes an extremely low bar on US distributors, so again, I can see where you're coming from.

The main issue here though, is that you’re assuming future releases won’t have any sort of acknowledgment of these features, when we really have no evidence that they won’t.

Additionally, you’re completely ignoring the fact that ultimately, it’s up to the American distributor to decide what goes on the dvd, because it’s their dvd that they are putting out. It wasn’t Toho that released the recent Criterion Collection. It wasn’t Toho that released the original completely barebones classic media releases.

Now yes, Toho is totally guilty of problems you and others have mentioned, but I just don’t understand this sudden and almost personal hatred you have for them.

It’s also hard to take anything you take seriously, when over the past few weeks I’ve been to Godzilla events, where it was openly acknowledged how important Godzilla’s Western history is.
Last edited by LSD Jellyfish on Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_JNavs_ wrote:The MV is like cheap imitation crabmeat, it tastes good, but it isn't real, while Shin is kino peak Japanese performance.

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Re: Toho continues calculated erasure of classic Godzilla dubs

Postby Terasawa » Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:42 pm

Yes, the guy thanked in Criterion’s Godzilla booklet is ignorant of the situation.
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Re: Toho continues calculated erasure of classic Godzilla dubs

Postby Tamura » Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:56 pm

LSD Jellyfish wrote:Additionally, you’re completely ignoring the fact that ultimately, it’s up to the American distributor to decide what goes on the dvd, because it’s their dvd that they are putting out.

No, it is Toho's decision because they have to approve of absolutely everything that is put on the release.

Now yes, Toho is totally guilty of problems you and others have mentioned, but I just don’t understand this sudden and almost personal hatred you have for them.

I'm not going to put myself in a position where I have to defend my longtime disgust, as a fan and as a film archivist, towards Toho's treatment of audiovisual media they own, so I won't say anything more to that statement.
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Re: Toho continues calculated erasure of classic Godzilla dubs

Postby Terasawa » Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:07 pm

Tamura wrote:
LSD Jellyfish wrote:Additionally, you’re completely ignoring the fact that ultimately, it’s up to the American distributor to decide what goes on the dvd, because it’s their dvd that they are putting out.

No, it is Toho's decision because they have to approve of absolutely everything that is put on the release.


This is pretty well-documented too. It’s not just a butthurt fan making up some nonsense.
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Re: Toho continues calculated erasure of classic Godzilla dubs

Postby mikelcho » Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:42 am

miguelnuva wrote:
LSD Jellyfish wrote:
miguelnuva wrote:If Toho wants to get rid of the American cuts to fix Godzilla's image worldwide they're out of luck. If Shin and kotm didn't fix his image redubs won't do it.

Shin Godzilla did fantastic in America for its range of release in America. KOTM did okay.

It’s funny you left Godzilla 2014 out of the picture.

There’s nothing wrong with “Godzilla’s image” in the west. People know who and why he is.


They did money wise but people still bring up the 60's rubber suits destroying cardboard cities.

I don't expect Godzilla to ever be big huge must see movies but there is still a stigma that the franchise faces from the GA they serious entries like Shin and big budget entries like G14 and Kotm haven't broken yet.

Closest thing I can compare it to would be Batman. Batman in the 60's was goofy and had a bright blue and grey suit. Now he's dark, brooding and wears black and dark gray due to Batman 89 and the Dark Knight and while people remember Adam West it's not the main thing people go to first when thinking Batman.

I honestly feel the showa series has made the biggest impact when shaping Godzilla.

Added in 1 minute 30 seconds:
eabaker wrote:
LSD Jellyfish wrote:Shin Godzilla did fantastic in America for its range of release in America. KOTM did okay.

It’s funny you left Godzilla 2014 out of the picture.

There’s nothing wrong with “Godzilla’s image” in the west. People know who and why he is.


And considering that most of what people seem to like about KotM is that it reminds them (for reasons quite beyond my ken) of the Showa era movies that are so widely mocked in the Western world, wouldn't KotM be working against any attempts to "fix" Godzilla's image?


Only thing Showa about Kotm is Godzilla being a clear cut heroic monster, the amount of monsters and how they Titans interact.


Yeah, if it weren't for the Showa series, we wouldn't even have Godzilla in the first place. Think about that one for a while.

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Re: Toho continues calculated erasure of classic Godzilla dubs

Postby MaxRebo320 » Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:14 am

mikelcho wrote:Yeah, if it weren't for the Showa series, we wouldn't even have Godzilla in the first place. Think about that one for a while.

You’re right - had the original film never been made, the series would never exist.

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Re: Toho continues calculated erasure of classic Godzilla dubs

Postby canofhumdingers » Mon Dec 09, 2019 12:36 pm

I’ve only kinda skimmed this thread but it spurred a though.

While it wouldn’t fix the video source problems or my feelings about film preservation regarding the unique US cuts, had Toho allowed Criterion to include brand new dubs for the films in the set that don’t have them, my ire towards the whole situation would be at least partially mitigated.

While I’d still want the US cuts preserved properly, including any dubs is a huge deal for me because I want to watch these films with my young kids. Even if it’s not my preferred dub, at least having *some* English dub for every film would allow us to enjoy the set together rather than having to resort to, say, a poorly interlaced cropped-to-16x9, low resolution dvd copy of Godzilla vs The Thing...

So yeah, if Toho’s gonna be stupidly stubborn about the old US versions, I’d strongly be in support of at least giving us newly made dubs for the films that don’t have an “approved” option.

Of course, all this seems to be a moot point when you realize that several of the films in Criterion’s set DO have Toho owned and approved international dubs and yet they still weren’t included...

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Re: Toho continues calculated erasure of classic Godzilla dubs

Postby Malchik » Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:19 pm

Had Toho not recorded English dubs for all their Godzilla films for international distribution but most American companies just wanted to make their own? I thought Toho had international prints and dubs made for all their Godzilla films.


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