How connected is Godzilla to the dinosaur movie genre nowadays?

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Re: How connected is Godzilla to the dinosaur movie genre nowadays?

Postby Billzilla1974 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:01 am

UltramanGoji wrote:
Billzilla1974 wrote:Baragon sure is a dinosaur according to Toho, they even imply he is one during a scene in Frankenstein vs Baragon.


Nope.

In the Showa series, Baragon is the descendant of a Mesozoic reptile called Baranosdragon (バラナスドラゴン Baranasudoragon) that survived into the modern day living underground.

- Encyclopedia of Godzilla (New Mothra Edition). Gakken. p. 110. 10 December 1992.
Everything About Godzilla Movies. Gakken. p. 144. 1 November 1993.


https://wikizilla.org/wiki/Baragon#Origins

You probably should've looked at the all of the references first, because at least one of them, from 'The Official Godzilla Compendium' states this: "Baragon is thought to be a dinosaur who burrowed underground to escape the post-Cretaceous climate changes." It's possible that "Baranosdragon" could just be a dinosaur with an extravagant name.
https://wikizilla.org/wiki/Baragon#/media/File:Compendium2.png
Last edited by Billzilla1974 on Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How connected is Godzilla to the dinosaur movie genre nowadays?

Postby UltramanGoji » Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:16 am

Two Japanese references > one American reference.

I mean, this is all just semantics really but still.
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Re: How connected is Godzilla to the dinosaur movie genre nowadays?

Postby eabaker » Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:47 am

How does anything published in 1992 have bearing on a movie released in 1965, unless it is citing that movie's original script or production notes?

Heck, even then, ultimately if it's not on screen, it doesn't necessarily exist.
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Re: How connected is Godzilla to the dinosaur movie genre nowadays?

Postby Billzilla1974 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:50 am

eabaker wrote:How does anything published in 1992 have bearing on a movie released in 1965, unless it is citing that movie's original script or production notes?

Heck, even then, ultimately if it's not on screen, it doesn't necessarily exist.

I'm fairly certain that the original series creators would have the final say no matter what is shown on screen, obviously though this book wasn't written by any of the OG series creators, so odds are I'm probably wrong about Baragon.
However, my point was that most Godzilla's could have theropod ancestry despite carrying some synapsid-like features, considering the Heisei Godzilla, despite having multiple mammal/synapsid-like features post-mutation, was still a mutated dinosaur.
Last edited by Billzilla1974 on Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: How connected is Godzilla to the dinosaur movie genre nowadays?

Postby eabaker » Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:04 pm

Billzilla1974 wrote:
eabaker wrote:How does anything published in 1992 have bearing on a movie released in 1965, unless it is citing that movie's original script or production notes?

Heck, even then, ultimately if it's not on screen, it doesn't necessarily exist.

Easy, if one of the original series creators was the author of that book, like Tomoyuki Tanaka for example, then it can be considered canon even if what is shown on screen doesn't line up with what the creators later claimed a few decades later.


If, in this hypothetical, Tanaka were writing about what the intention was at the time of production, then it could (though would not have to) reasonably inform an interpretation of the completed work. If an idea is conceived after completion and initial distribution of the work, then it does not retroactively alter what has already been done. For example, regardless of the revelations in The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi, when Star Wars is examined as a self-contained work, Darth Vader is not Luke and Leia's father, nor are the latter two siblings (though this changes when viewing any print which includes the subtitle "A New Hope," which is an altered version of the movie designed to be viewed in the broader chronology created by Empire).
Last edited by eabaker on Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:05 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: How connected is Godzilla to the dinosaur movie genre nowadays?

Postby UltramanGoji » Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:15 pm

eabaker wrote:If, in this hypothetical, Tanaka were writing about what the intention was at the time of production, then it could (though would not have to) reasonably inform an interpretation of the completed work. If an idea is conceived after completion and initial distribution of the work, then it does not retroactively alter what has already been done. For example, regardless of the revelations in The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi, when Star Wars is examined as a self-contained work, Darth Vader is not Luke and Leia's father, nor are the latter two siblings (though this changes when viewing any print which includes the subtitle "A New Hope," which is an altered version of the movie designed to be viewed in the broader chronology created by Empire).


I think it's pretty unfair to consider that in the same camp as whether or not Baragon is a dinosaur. One is a drastic change that completely alters the way an audience perceives another film and the other is an inconsequential detail that doesn't affect anything from the film its referencing. Knowing Baragon's species isn't going to change any aspect of Frankenstein vs. Baragon's thematic structure or anything. It's harmless trivia.
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Re: How connected is Godzilla to the dinosaur movie genre nowadays?

Postby eabaker » Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:20 pm

UltramanGoji wrote:
eabaker wrote:If, in this hypothetical, Tanaka were writing about what the intention was at the time of production, then it could (though would not have to) reasonably inform an interpretation of the completed work. If an idea is conceived after completion and initial distribution of the work, then it does not retroactively alter what has already been done. For example, regardless of the revelations in The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi, when Star Wars is examined as a self-contained work, Darth Vader is not Luke and Leia's father, nor are the latter two siblings (though this changes when viewing any print which includes the subtitle "A New Hope," which is an altered version of the movie designed to be viewed in the broader chronology created by Empire).


I think it's pretty unfair to consider that in the same camp as whether or not Baragon is a dinosaur. One is a drastic change that completely alters the way an audience perceives another film and the other is an inconsequential detail that doesn't affect anything from the film its referencing. Knowing Baragon's species isn't going to change any aspect of Frankenstein vs. Baragon's thematic structure or anything. It's harmless trivia.


How drastic or significant the matter is doesn't alter the basic mechanics of fiction.
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Re: How connected is Godzilla to the dinosaur movie genre nowadays?

Postby Jeff-Goldblum2 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:41 pm

100% Dinosaur. The fact that Tristar went into production of their Godzilla movie because of the success of Jurassic Park is telling.

Now he's pretty big for a dinosaur, but the Brontosaurus rampage in The Lost World set up the giant dinosaur in the city story element. Which then made it's way into King Kong and the Rhedosaurus in The Beast From 20,000 Fathoms. And Rhedosaurus is significantly bigger than any real dinosaur.

But there's definitely a familiar recognizable story element that dinosaur movies had before it was employed as a well known setting for Godzilla movies.

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Re: How connected is Godzilla to the dinosaur movie genre nowadays?

Postby LegendZilla » Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:43 pm

Billzilla1974 wrote:
_JNavs_ wrote:
I don't think Godzilla was ever, or should ever be a synapsid.


A Synapsid is a big no-no, yet a vessel for lost souls is just fine?
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Re: How connected is Godzilla to the dinosaur movie genre nowadays?

Postby _JNavs_ » Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:55 pm

LegendZilla wrote:
Billzilla1974 wrote:
_JNavs_ wrote:
I don't think Godzilla was ever, or should ever be a synapsid.


A Synapsid is a big no-no, yet a vessel for lost souls is just fine?

I think you quoted wrong lol.
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Re: How connected is Godzilla to the dinosaur movie genre nowadays?

Postby Billzilla1974 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 5:59 pm

I will always prefer for Godzilla to be a Theropod/marine reptile hybrid, I've only recently started to like the GMK incarnation. GMK is acceptable to me because it was only one film, and his body still kept some dinosaur-like traits.
If you really want a Synapsid/mammal-like/mammal Godzilla , then Tsubaraya productions already made one of sorts named Gomess in Ultra Q.
Last edited by Billzilla1974 on Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: How connected is Godzilla to the dinosaur movie genre nowadays?

Postby Gerdzerl » Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:24 pm

It doesn't really matter exactly what Godzilla is so long as he looks and acts like, well, Godzilla.

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Re: How connected is Godzilla to the dinosaur movie genre nowadays?

Postby eabaker » Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:35 am

Why do we need such damned specificity about something that is, at its core, metaphorical and fantastical?
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Re: How connected is Godzilla to the dinosaur movie genre nowadays?

Postby MechaGoji Bro7503 » Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:41 am

eabaker wrote:Why do we need such damned specificity about something that is, at its core, metaphorical and fantastical?

Love works in mysterious ways? :lol:
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Re: How connected is Godzilla to the dinosaur movie genre nowadays?

Postby JAGzilla » Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:02 pm

^ That improved my whole day. :lol:

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Re: How connected is Godzilla to the dinosaur movie genre nowadays?

Postby LSD Jellyfish » Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:55 pm

eabaker wrote:Why do we need such damned specificity about something that is, at its core, metaphorical and fantastical?

That’s exactly my point. Godzilla, even in context of his films, is a mystery. I’ve been rewatching the showa series, and with future context, I can safely say Godzilla’s origin, besides H-bomb testing(and atomic bombs), is unimportant.

I gotta say, I’m really proud of recent films, to not address Godzilla’s origins. The entire Millenium era ignores this fact.What I do have to appreciate is Shin’s origin, because it’s the same as the original. A monster born of nuclear actions. The rest is kept a complete mystery.
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