Toho Kingdom

LSD Jellyfish wrote:Destroyah is the oxygen destroyer.

Which feels incredibly forced...at least it does to me.

LSD Jellyfish wrote:but Destroyah has a big sense of finality to him.

Because it was the final film of the era?

Also...I just want to point out that a lot of members here seem to be making a
big deal about Destroyah "killing" Junior...but the truth is...most of Godzilla's foes
from the Heisei era could have killed Junior one on one if given the opportunity
at that time.

Biollante (in her final form), King & Mecha Ghidorah, Battra (both forms), Mothra
(if she was inclined), (Super) MechaGodzilla, SpaceGodzilla & Moguera from my
observations could have all killed Junior in his physical state we saw during vs.
Destroyah.

But...then that's just how I see the "Power Levels" of the Heisei series.

I just don't think killing Junior is that much of a big deal when comparing Destroyah
to Hedorah.

Hell...I'm sure Showa Hedorah could have killed Junior at that point of time as well.

Why does him being the Oxygen Destroyer feel forced? They actually do it in a pretty solid way, I thought.

Maritonic wrote:Why does him being the Oxygen Destroyer feel forced? They actually do it in a pretty solid way, I thought.

Well...its a colony of Oxygen Destroyer mutated Precambrian organisms
that have been lying dormant in Tokyo Bay for 40/41 years.

It just seems forced to me...like they HAD to tie it to the original instead of
having a scientist trying to replicate the original Oxygen Destroyer only to have
it backfire & mutate some sea life in a fish tank he tests his formula in.

To be fair...my opinion would be the same if they made a Godzilla vs. Hedorah
film & had Hedorah regrow/regenerate from a sample of the original Hedorah
from 40+ years ago.

Grievous wrote:

Maritonic wrote:Why does him being the Oxygen Destroyer feel forced? They actually do it in a pretty solid way, I thought.

Well...its a colony of Oxygen Destroyer mutated Precambrian organisms
that have been lying dormant in Tokyo Bay for 40/41 years.

It just seems forced to me...like they HAD to tie it to the original instead of
having a scientist trying to replicate the original Oxygen Destroyer only to have
it backfire & mutant some sea life in a fish tank he tests his formula in.

To be fair...my opinion would be the same if they made a Godzilla vs. Hedorah
film & had Hedorah regrow/regenerate from a sample of the original Hedorah
from 40+ years ago.

The doctor replicating and having it backfire would have been cool, I guess. I think having the film tie directly to the original was an interesting take because, as far as I recall, it hadn't been done so upfront before. His research into the Micro-Oxygen is what exposed the creature to the surface (in that tunnel). So, I mean. It wasn't really all that forced. I think the idea of an anniversary type film, ending the series, killing off Godzilla, needed something grandiose like this.

Sadly, it's just not executed NEARLY as well as the concept should have been.

Maritonic wrote:Sadly, it's just not executed NEARLY as well as the concept should have been.

And that is why it feels forced to me.

There is a great idea in there...it just needed fleshing out...
perhaps they could have cut those "Aliens" ripoff scenes yeah?

Those scenes are fun...but they are so cringe...they feel like
they are from an 80's Italian Remakesploitation film.

Grievous wrote:

Maritonic wrote:Sadly, it's just not executed NEARLY as well as the concept should have been.

And that is why it feels forced to me.

There is a great idea in there...it just needed fleshing out...
perhaps they could have cut those "Aliens" ripoff scenes yeah?

Those scenes are fun...but they are so cringe...they feel like
they are from an 80's Italian Remakesploitation film.

To be fair, the Heisei series ripped a lot of popular films. Aliens, Terminator, Indiana Jones. I could have done without all of Destroyah's other forms. And I definitely agree it's a missed opportunity of a concept. But I don't feel the concept, itself, is forced.

Maritonic wrote:Sadly, it's just not executed NEARLY as well as the concept should have been.

That's it exactly. Good idea, but poor execution that makes the idea seem pointless... at least in the story being told.

Zarm wrote:

Maritonic wrote:Sadly, it's just not executed NEARLY as well as the concept should have been.

That's it exactly. Good idea, but poor execution that makes the idea seem pointless... at least in the story being told.

Right. But that doesn't necessarily mean the idea itself is forced, which is what is being said.

Maritonic wrote:

Zarm wrote:

Maritonic wrote:Sadly, it's just not executed NEARLY as well as the concept should have been.

That's it exactly. Good idea, but poor execution that makes the idea seem pointless... at least in the story being told.

Right. But that doesn't necessarily mean the idea itself is forced, which is what is being said.

I agree. I could see that in the context of ' 'forced' (shoehorned) into a narrative that has no place for it'- but I'd agree that the concept itself doesn't feel forced, just... squandered.

I just want to clarify that it feels forced to me personally.

I'm not saying it is 100% forced.

Neither of these guys are even in my top 5 most powerful Godzilla enemies. Destroyah felt like more of a genuine threat to Godzilla, but again, neither of them are that powerful. Once Godzilla found out that Hedorah's weakness was literally just electricity, he just pummeled him easily. It was honestly embarrassing to watch. Hedorah just gets massacred. Destroyah was tougher and killed Jr, so he has more feats to his name than Hedorah already. But he's made out of the Oxygen Destroyer, so I'd say he's pretty powerful offensively. However, he was easily taken out by military freezing weapons, so it's hard to really say he's that great durability-wise.

Godzilla's Top 5 Most Powerful Enemies:

1. Kaiser Ghidorah (Brought Godzilla to near death in the most one-sided fight in the series. Godzilla only wins because mutant Ex Machina.)
2. Super Mechagodzilla (Literally killed Godzilla, if only temporarily. Was able to withstand the most punishment of any of Godzilla's enemies, including tanking 6 Spiral Ray blasts before going down, after his heat shield had already melted.)
3. SpaceGodzilla (Super strong, tons of different powers and abilities, took a Moguera/Godzilla tag team to bring him down and Godzilla then wins because Spiral Ray Ex Machina.)
4. Showa Mechagodzilla (1974 could take down King Caesar and Godzilla with ease. Godzilla wins the first time because.. magnetism Ex Machina? WTF?)
5. Mothra (The only kaiju that has been able to defeat Godzilla in every battle they've had, except for GMK. Either in Imago or Larval Form.)

Final Wars is so over the place, but I do sometimes feel Kaiser is overlooked as a villain. I think this is because he's tacked on at the end and doesn't have a whole film build up.

Super Mechagodzilla, while the only opponent to literally kill Godzilla, did so through a macguffin and as such really doesn't count. If that secondary brain didn't randomly exist in that ONE movie, he wouldn't have killed him.

Spacegodzilla is strong in concept, but I remember him being pretty weak. Been a while since I've suffered that film though.

Mechagodzilla is stronger in the Showa years, but he's still not as threatening as Hedorah I'd say. (Ironic you mention your frustration of his defeat due to a deus ex machina when that's the only way Super MechaG won).

Mothra wins because the plot tells her to, not because she's more powerful. She's always the good guy in her films with Godzilla, who is typically the bad guy.

Gojirawars 03 wrote:Neither of these guys are even in my top 5 most powerful Godzilla enemies. Destroyah felt like more of a genuine threat to Godzilla, but again, neither of them are that powerful. Once Godzilla found out that Hedorah's weakness was literally just electricity, he just pummeled him easily. It was honestly embarrassing to watch. Hedorah just gets massacred. Destroyah was tougher and killed Jr, so he has more feats to his name than Hedorah already. But he's made out of the Oxygen Destroyer, so I'd say he's pretty powerful offensively. However, he was easily taken out by military freezing weapons, so it's hard to really say he's that great durability-wise.

Godzilla's Top 5 Most Powerful Enemies:

1. Kaiser Ghidorah (Brought Godzilla to near death in the most one-sided fight in the series. Godzilla only wins because mutant Ex Machina.)
2. Super Mechagodzilla (Literally killed Godzilla, if only temporarily. Was able to withstand the most punishment of any of Godzilla's enemies, including tanking 6 Spiral Ray blasts before going down, after his heat shield had already melted.)
3. SpaceGodzilla (Super strong, tons of different powers and abilities, took a Moguera/Godzilla tag team to bring him down and Godzilla then wins because Spiral Ray Ex Machina.)
4. Showa Mechagodzilla (1974 could take down King Caesar and Godzilla with ease. Godzilla wins the first time because.. magnetism Ex Machina? WTF?)
5. Mothra (The only kaiju that has been able to defeat Godzilla in every battle they've had, except for GMK. Either in Imago or Larval Form.)

I really don't think Super MechaG deserves that spot; or at the very least, deserves 'killing Godzilla' as a feat. He just had a film Deus Ex Machina to do it. Like, a Mothra larva with a taser and the same intel on where to aim could've done the same thing; it was a sucker punch to a hidden weak-spot that needed Miki to enable it and relied on external intel that anyone could capitalize on. (I mean, he does have a fearsome arsenal, still; I just really don't think killing Godzilla 'counts' as a strength-feat owing to the nature of how it went down).

I think Hedorah deserves a bit more respect; Hedorah's mobility and speed and ability to regrow would've prevented Godzilla from doing anything without the human setup rig- and he did disolve Godzilla's hand. I think that, and his potential for unchecked growth, put him a but higher on the list. But otherwise, I'd agree with your ranking of power-levels.

Added in 4 minutes 25 seconds:

Maritonic wrote:Final Wars is so over the place, but I do sometimes feel Kaiser is overlooked as a villain. I think this is because he's tacked on at the end and doesn't have a whole film build up.

Super Mechagodzilla, while the only opponent to literally kill Godzilla, did so through a macguffin and as such really doesn't count. If that secondary brain didn't randomly exist in that ONE movie, he wouldn't have killed him.

Spacegodzilla is strong in concept, but I remember him being pretty weak. Been a while since I've suffered that film though.

Mechagodzilla is stronger in the Showa years, but he's still not as threatening as Hedorah I'd say. (Ironic you mention your frustration of his defeat due to a deus ex machina when that's the only way Super MechaG won).

Mothra wins because the plot tells her to, not because she's more powerful. She's always the good guy in her films with Godzilla, who is typically the bad guy.

The thing I'd say for SpaceGodzilla- with his telekeinesis, he literally rendered Godzilla helpless- and he tanked 70+ hits (I counted). He is definitely on the high end of the durability scale- and against a single opponent, he seems pretty dominating. He doesn't have as powerful an attack as Destroyah's horn katana or MechaGodzilla's rotating missiles, but he's more of an endurance, damage-over-time/outlasting opponent, just a juggernaut that keeps on coming and slowly, steadily racks up the damage on the opponent. (At least, that would be the case I'd make for him).

You make great points otherwise, particularly Mothra.

It's funny, though. Because a lot depends on your qualifier for strength. In durability, Super MechaG and SpaceGodzilla trump, for instance. In victories, Mothra is unrivaled- even though she often dies in the process. In offensive power, MechaGodzilla and Destroyah are heavy sudden-hitters, while SpaceGodzilla and Hedorah can rack it up in less instant-kill, but more corrosive and steady manners...

It really is dependent on one's criteria.

Maritonic wrote:Final Wars is so over the place, but I do sometimes feel Kaiser is overlooked as a villain. I think this is because he's tacked on at the end and doesn't have a whole film build up.

That is true. But then Final Wars didn't really ever take time to slow down for anything, so building him up would have been nice, but out of touch with the rest of the film's LSD pacing.

Maritonic wrote:Super Mechagodzilla, while the only opponent to literally kill Godzilla, did so through a macguffin and as such really doesn't count. If that secondary brain didn't randomly exist in that ONE movie, he wouldn't have killed him.

Well, even in their first battle, Mechagodzilla easily had Godzilla beat until the Big G did that 'reverse the electric current' thing. Besides, it always seemed weird why they made up that he had a second brain, when they could have just said to target his actual brain in his head and just do it that way. Maybe because Toho didn't want the film to be too graphic or something, IDK.

Maritonic wrote:Spacegodzilla is strong in concept, but I remember him being pretty weak. Been a while since I've suffered that film though.

Well, referring again to their first fight on Birth Island, SpaceGodzilla easily knocked down Godzilla while hardly breaking a sweat. He has the shield, unlimited energy, flight, corona beams, crystal projectiles, telekinesis, etc. He has just, SO MANY powers. It's no wonder the final fight of that movie went on for so long.

Maritonic wrote:Mechagodzilla is stronger in the Showa years, but he's still not as threatening as Hedorah I'd say. (Ironic you mention your frustration of his defeat due to a deus ex machina when that's the only way Super MechaG won).

I can't really compare Hedorah to Mechagodzilla very well, since I've actually only seen Godzilla vs Hedorah all the way through once.

Maritonic wrote:Mothra wins because the plot tells her to, not because she's more powerful. She's always the good guy in her films with Godzilla, who is typically the bad guy.

Well she does get her abdomen kicked all the time, but since she's basically the anti-Ghidorah deterrent of earth, more-so than even the Big G himself, I'd say she has to be pretty powerful.

I definitely think Super Mechagodzilla is strong but the argument that he killed Godzilla is really a hard one to make because he exploits a weakness that didn't exist before, or after, the film he is in.

Maritonic wrote:I definitely think Super Mechagodzilla is strong but the argument that he killed Godzilla is really a hard one to make because he exploits a weakness that didn't exist before, or after, the film he is in.

Well, again, I feel like they could've just shot the anchors into his head and had the same effect. I actually don't really get why they made up him having a second brain out of no where, and it's my favorite film in the whole series.

Gojirawars 03 wrote:

Maritonic wrote:I definitely think Super Mechagodzilla is strong but the argument that he killed Godzilla is really a hard one to make because he exploits a weakness that didn't exist before, or after, the film he is in.

Well, again, I feel like they could've just shot the anchors into his head and had the same effect. I actually don't really get why they made up him having a second brain out of no where, and it's my favorite film in the whole series.

I mean, maybe. But then you're talking about penetrating a thick skull bone vs. flesh and vertebrae. It's not the same.

Mechagodzilla did not kill Godzilla in GVMG2. Only paralyzed him.

The second brain controls his motor functions in his lower body. Destroying that wouldn't kill him.

UltramanGoji wrote:Mechagodzilla did not kill Godzilla in GVMG2. Only paralyzed him.

The second brain controls his motor functions in his lower body. Destroying that wouldn't kill him.

"Godzilla is also killed in Kodansha's manga adaptation of the film, with Mechagodzilla beheading him after Mecha-King Ghidorah's programming takes over the machine." WHOA WHY WASN'T THIS USED?!

Or. Like. Hinted at with having MechaGhidorah's programming be a ghost in the machine.

Maritonic wrote:

UltramanGoji wrote:Mechagodzilla did not kill Godzilla in GVMG2. Only paralyzed him.

The second brain controls his motor functions in his lower body. Destroying that wouldn't kill him.

"Godzilla is also killed in Kodansha's manga adaptation of the film, with Mechagodzilla beheading him after Mecha-King Ghidorah's programming takes over the machine." WHOA WHY WASN'T THIS USED?!

Or. Like. Hinted at with having MechaGhidorah's programming be a ghost in the machine.

So, basically Kiryu v1.0? I wonder if the filmmakers took any inspiration from that idea. (I will say that while it wasn't un-utilized, various concepts with Godzilla's bones and spirit, and Mothra's objections, represent the second-worst squandering of a concept in the franchise, to my mind, after Destroyah and the Oxygen Destroyer).