Any Official Material That States Kong Beat Godzilla In 1962?

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Any Official Material That States Kong Beat Godzilla In 1962?

Postby Moogabunga » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:23 am

Let me just say, I know and believe that Kong was victorious in 1962, but I was wondering if anyone knows of any official material that states that, whether that be a quote from someone at Toho, a magazine article, anything? Thanks
Last edited by Moogabunga on Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Any Official Material That States Kong Beat Godzilla In 1962?

Postby Maritonic » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:30 am

This is going to sound sarcastic and rude, but it's not meant to. Just clarifying because I know tone doesn't convey through text. So, seriously. Not meant sarcastic.

What about the fact that in the film, Kong emerges from the sea and Godzilla does not? Thus, he is victorious. It's always so interesting to me because no one ever argues that Ghidorah lost the fight in Ghidorah the Three Headed Monster, and he just flew away. Same with Monster Zero. Ebirah swims away in Sea Monster, but does anyone dispute his defeat? Nope. But for some reason, it always comes up for King Kong vs. Godzilla.
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Re: Any Official Material That States Kong Beat Godzilla In 1962?

Postby Terasawa » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:38 am

From a 1963 Toho Films brochure:

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Re: Any Official Material That States Kong Beat Godzilla In 1962?

Postby MechaGoji Bro7503 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:30 pm

Maritonic wrote:This is going to sound sarcastic and rude, but it's not meant to. Just clarifying because I know tone doesn't convey through text. So, seriously. Not meant sarcastic.

What about the fact that in the film, Kong emerges from the sea and Godzilla does not? Thus, he is victorious. It's always so interesting to me because no one ever argues that Ghidorah lost the fight in Ghidorah the Three Headed Monster, and he just flew away. Same with Monster Zero. Ebirah swims away in Sea Monster, but does anyone dispute his defeat? Nope. But for some reason, it always comes up for King Kong vs. Godzilla.

It's probably because King Kong is already an established character, like since KKvG was truly a "crossover"
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Re: Any Official Material That States Kong Beat Godzilla In 1962?

Postby Maritonic » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:34 pm

MechaGoji Bro7503 wrote:
Maritonic wrote:This is going to sound sarcastic and rude, but it's not meant to. Just clarifying because I know tone doesn't convey through text. So, seriously. Not meant sarcastic.

What about the fact that in the film, Kong emerges from the sea and Godzilla does not? Thus, he is victorious. It's always so interesting to me because no one ever argues that Ghidorah lost the fight in Ghidorah the Three Headed Monster, and he just flew away. Same with Monster Zero. Ebirah swims away in Sea Monster, but does anyone dispute his defeat? Nope. But for some reason, it always comes up for King Kong vs. Godzilla.

It's probably because King Kong is already an established character, like since KKvG was truly a "crossover"


It doesn't really change what we witness on screen; two monsters go into the water, only one comes out. Sure, in the Japanese version we get Godzilla's roar with Kong's at the start of the credits, but it felt more ceremonial. All I'm getting it is that it's always been odd to me that so many people have issue, or refute it. (Not saying that's what's happening here, because it's not.) It's just fascinating to me that this victory/defeat is arguably the only one in the entire franchise that's discussed.
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Re: Any Official Material That States Kong Beat Godzilla In 1962?

Postby Ivo-goji » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:34 pm

Godzilla lost against Kong because he was a bad guy in that film. If Godzilla won, he would have gone on wrecking Japan until someone else stopped him.

Godzilla won against Ghidorah because he was a good guy in that film. If Ghidorah won, he would have gone on wrecking Japan until someone else stopped him.

This is common sense.
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Re: Any Official Material That States Kong Beat Godzilla In 1962?

Postby Maritonic » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:36 pm

Ivo-goji wrote:Godzilla lost against Kong because he was a bad guy in that film. If Godzilla won, he would have gone on wrecking Japan until someone else stopped him.

Godzilla won against Ghidorah because he was a good guy in that film. If Ghidorah won, he would have gone on wrecking Japan until someone else stopped him.

This is common sense.


Literally no one questioned this. I'm very well aware why both characters won their respective films. I'm talking about the fandom's desire to debate who won, if it was a draw, etc. Not sure where your comments are coming from.
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Re: Any Official Material That States Kong Beat Godzilla In 1962?

Postby King of the Monsters » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:05 pm

As Terasawa already pointed out, Toho's own English-language sales brochure contemporary with the film said that Kong was victorious, and there's no doubt that the film makes a point to show that Kong is the only monster to surface at the end of the film. I feel that if the original intention was for it to be a draw, they would have shown Godzilla swimming away afterward instead of only speculating that he could have survived. There's not really any way to spin it as Godzilla winning without really stretching. As far as I know, there are no official sources from or approved by Toho that say Godzilla won.

Now, there are definitely official sources that retroactively declare the battle to have been a draw. In his book Definitive Edition Godzilla Introduction, Tomoyuki Tanaka states that Godzilla and Kong fought to a draw several times. It's worth noting that Tanaka is pretty generous with Godzilla's fight record in the book, going so far as to say his final battle with Biollante was a "victory" even though Godzilla clearly retreated first. I can definitely see spinning the outcome as a draw, since we don't know what happened between the monsters underwater and we know Godzilla is aquatic, but in my mind it's pretty clear the original intention on the filmmakers' part was that Kong won. And like others have already said, it only made sense since Kong was the more established monster at the time and was presented as the more sympathetic and "heroic" of the two.

I've always been surprised at how hotly debated and controversial this still is over 50 years later, I've always accepted that Kong was the winner. But I guess I can see why some people would choose to believe it's a draw retroactively, since Tanaka himself did the same.
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Re: Any Official Material That States Kong Beat Godzilla In 1962?

Postby JAGzilla » Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:24 pm

For the record, people do question the ending of Monster Zero, saying that Ghidorah must have won because he was the only monster to surface. This seems to disregard the fact that he immediately ran away, of course...

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Re: Any Official Material That States Kong Beat Godzilla In 1962?

Postby Maritonic » Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:23 pm

JAGzilla wrote:For the record, people do question the ending of Monster Zero, saying that Ghidorah must have won because he was the only monster to surface. This seems to disregard the fact that he immediately ran away, of course...


Do they? Well. Clearly not nearly to the extent of King Kong vs. Godzilla, then.
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Re: Any Official Material That States Kong Beat Godzilla In 1962?

Postby UltramanGoji » Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:58 pm

King of the Monsters wrote:I've always been surprised at how hotly debated and controversial this still is over 50 years later


It's really not hard to get: most Godzilla fans don't give two shits about narrative development and only care about flashy monster battles and imaginary statistics that they can quote ad nauseam.

It's why you still have people bitching about the ending to Mothra vs. Godzilla to this day.
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Re: Any Official Material That States Kong Beat Godzilla In 1962?

Postby eabaker » Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:26 pm

UltramanGoji wrote:It's really not hard to get: most Godzilla fans don't give two shits about narrative development and only care about flashy monster battles and imaginary statistics that they can quote ad nauseam.


I don't know about most. Most Godzilla fans just aren't participating in those conversations. Most Godzilla fans aren't posting on message boards about Godzilla at all.
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Re: Any Official Material That States Kong Beat Godzilla In 1962?

Postby Kaiju-King42 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:06 am

Maritonic wrote:Literally no one questioned this.


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Re: Any Official Material That States Kong Beat Godzilla In 1962?

Postby Maritonic » Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:10 am

Kaiju-King42 wrote:
Maritonic wrote:Literally no one questioned this.


Nice to meet you, Maritonic. My name is No One. ;)


Where did you question Kong winning because he was a good guy, Ghidorah losing because he was a bad guy, in this thread?
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Re: Any Official Material That States Kong Beat Godzilla In 1962?

Postby Gerdzerl » Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:52 am

Having official supplementary material verify that Kong won is nice, but I thought the film itself made it decently clear that he won.
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Re: Any Official Material That States Kong Beat Godzilla In 1962?

Postby Kaeyas » Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:17 pm

It's pretty clear Kong won. It was only my second G movie to ever watch back in 1986 (ROG being the first a year prior). I remember being a very disappointed 6 year old. I never cared that Godzilla was bad lol. Kong is ok but even then I thought it just wasn't plausible that he could beat Godzilla.
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Re: Any Official Material That States Kong Beat Godzilla In 1962?

Postby Zarm » Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:01 pm

It's funny, because I don't think the OP was debating the point, just asking the most popular question in the Wikipedia era... "Source?" :)
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Re: Any Official Material That States Kong Beat Godzilla In 1962?

Postby Chris55 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:36 am

I've always seen it as a draw-seems like it was designed to be an ambiguous ending so you can decide for yourself who won. I'd be ok with Godzilla losing to Kong though.
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Re: Any Official Material That States Kong Beat Godzilla In 1962?

Postby Maritonic » Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:23 am

Zarm wrote:It's funny, because I don't think the OP was debating the point, just asking the most popular question in the Wikipedia era... "Source?" :)


But what source do you actually need other than what you see in the film? That was what my point was; do you need a source to know Ghidorah lost Ghidorah the Three Headed Monster?
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Re: Any Official Material That States Kong Beat Godzilla In 1962?

Postby Zarm » Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:27 am

Maritonic wrote:
Zarm wrote:It's funny, because I don't think the OP was debating the point, just asking the most popular question in the Wikipedia era... "Source?" :)


But what source do you actually need other than what you see in the film? That was what my point was; do you need a source to know Ghidorah lost Ghidorah the Three Headed Monster?


No, and while I don't feel that the ending of this film is as clear-cut, I do understand the people saying it's just common sense. My point is, I think all the OP wants to know is, 'are there official sources that corroborate that, and if so, what are they?'. It's a research project to identify the sources and the history of the official position on the film, rather than a challenge.
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