Zarm wrote:Or, I suppose, alternately- Mothra was the true origin of SpaceGodzilla all along, and altered events mean she never went to space in this timeline, thus no SpaceGodzilla at all; that may be the most plausible option?)
Yes. None of the other events of the Heisei series would have happened unless Godzilla was awakened and beaten by MKG.
Recall at this point that Godzilla had awakened and defeated King Ghidorah, So in theory, this timeline be that we are seeing is the future of that - 1 which Godzilla has awakened, and Biollante has already gone into space - so she is the origin for SpaceGodzilla, SpaceGodzilla should be inevitable - but there is no future technology to reverse engineer. Which means that although babies egg will still be found, and Rodan and Godzilla will still fight, there will be no Mechagodzilla. The events of Godzilla versus Mothra colon battle for Earth should still be inevitable and I changed, meaning Mothra will go into space and guaranteeing, unless one where to argue that something in the defeat of Godzilla it wouldn't have? And then, again, SpaceGodzilla and without any future technology, have destroyed the Earth. Not to mention Destoroyah. Yet somehow, we are in a future where no reverse-engineered high technology existed during the Heisei, and yet, the world has not been destroyed.
The only two ways that I can see that being plausible are:
1. If the ripple effect of that reverse engineering technology itself somehow lead to the events of Mothra vs Godzilla (perhaps Godzilla's unchecked rampage destroyed enough polluting industry to stave off triggering Battra), and in turn, Mothra becomes the definitive origin for SpaceGodzilla rather than Biollante, despite the design similarities.
2. Without the high technology, enough Kaiju survived -Fire Rodan, and maybe due to alternate events as mentioned in #1, Vattra lived and went to divert the meteor while Mothra remained on Earth- that working together, they were able to defeat SpaceGodzilla despite the lack of a MOGUERA.
Zarm wrote:Could it have been the future of the Heisei universe as it would come to be after vs. Destroyah (the one she 'created' by coming back), in which Japan's godzilla-free future was gone, but the technology benefit gained by reverse-engineering Mecha-KG had still led to a prosperous time? It seems paradoxical for that to already exist.
I'm not sure what you're asking.
What I was asking is, due to the unlikelihood of Timeline B being able to exist, due to the aforementioned issue with the world seeming to face destruction if Japan hadn't had the reverse-engineered future technology, I was theorizing whether the timeline we see Emi in, where she's petitioning them to build Mecha-King Ghidorah, is somehow already Timeline C, the final actual future that eventually results from the Heisei timeline, in which all the movies happened as we know them... since that seems to be the only timeline with an actual survivable future, other than the original that the Futurians came from. But of course, if she were already in that timeline, then when the people of that time line built Mecha-King Ghidorah, it would be a paradox, as they would be creating their own version of the future.
Zarm wrote:The later Heisei films having G-Force reverse engineer MKG doesn't really matter, Japan will become technologically prosperous because the heroes made the best decisions for their families and their nation, not because of the time travel.
Yes, but that Prosperity was achieved due to Godzilla's in activity. With the reverse engineering of the technology in the final version of the timeline, I could see the future continuing to prosper because though Godzilla was around, he was dealt with. But in the future of the timeline that we see her travel too, where Godzilla has awoken and his rampaging and there is no future technology to keep him in check, it seems that that Prosperity would be unlikely due to Japan repeatedly being helpless before invasions by Godzilla from the 1990s onward. And again, that leaves a side the question above of whether they could even survive the events of the 1990s without that reverse engineered technology in place. That is why I am questioning the simply because she's in has a supercharged Godzilla on the loose and other monsters that we know from future films are lurking in the wings and waiting to appear, but without any of the needed technology that they used to deal with those kaiju.
It feels to me like there would have to be at least three versions of the same future year- version A, from which the Futurians came, version B, to which Emi returned and we witnessed, and version C- the actual future of the Heisei timeline- to which she returns. All should be vastly different from one-another, trading economic prosperity for a post-Godzilla legacy, and then a ravaged post-Godzilla legacy to a post-Godzilla-legacy-with-incredible-technological-boost.
I think you're too hung up on the mechanics of cause and effect. Emi destroyed the original, good future because she betrayed her nation, and was able to make a new future possible after she repented and embraced her responsibility to the past. The details about how the timelines would be similar or different aren't important except in how they influence the characters' motivations.
Well, no- I would not say that I'm getting hung up on the mechanics so much I was trying to discuss the mechanics themselves.
Above, this conversation started because I was trying to break down the events of the film, and to actually understanding what is happening. To break down and analyze the time-travel the events of the film for a clear understanding of what supposed to be happening during the narrative. Now, I'm trying to extend that analysis to the Future framing segments, to understand exactly what went down.
I do understand what you are saying themeatically, but logistically, I'm trying to figure out how there is still a future for Emi to return to at the point that she does, in which the world has not been destroyed, and also to identify (as I think that we are all in agreement on) whether they were multiple fiture timelines.
In theory, the place that Emi goes to is one in which the Futurians never existed, and one wonders how much work she had to do to reach the social position which she is in, apparently with an influential figure diving to view King Ghidorah's remains and making her pitch- or whether she was capitalizing on some relationship that existed with her alternate self in the future, etc. There are many tantalizing questions for fans of time travel stories.
But also, presumably, the future to which returns at the end is one in which neither the Futurians as rebels, nor Emi's own efforts and the construction effort of building Mecha-King Ghidorah, ever existed, and one in which the technology is much higher, quite possibly, than either the ones that she left. (In Timeline A, time travel was clearly a reality, as were androids, but that was from technology slowly developing at a normal pace. In Timeline B, we have no idea if they were more or less advanced- because there was an unchecked Godzilla, I would tend to assume 'less' due to various setbacks) and the technology used to create Mecha-King Ghidorah constituted the pinnacle of technology. In Timeline C, presumably, the technology used create Mecha-King Ghidorah is antiquated, due to the severe technical boost that Japan received in reverse-engineering it in the past. They'd be much further along by that point.
Therefore, Emi's not returning to her own time at the end so much as to a completely alien world- although, possibly one that is more advanced and utopic than either of the ones she'd left. But it will be a completely new and foreign country to her, and possibly one in which she is as out-of-place as the present day humans were amidst the high-technology of her future ship.
But, these musings were largely secondary to the question of that middle timeline where Mecha-King Ghidorah is built, and how it could have existed, which is the primary thing I wanted to explore. So much time and effort has been spent in detailing the logistics of how time travel actually works in this movie with regards for the past in the present, I just wanted to expand that analysis to the future as well, since all three influence each other, and it's still a missing piece of completely mapping out the logistics of this complex movie.