Kaiju Headcanon Thread

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Re: Kaiju Headcanon Thread

Postby Maritonic » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:32 am

SoggyNoodles2016 wrote:
Maritonic wrote:
SoggyNoodles2016 wrote:That information is easily one of the best supplementary info this site found. I also agree with you on it having nothing to do with history between the two.


Wait, what? It's the best but you agree with my point of view on it? I'm confused :eh:


I meant I agree with your headcanon that Baragon
and Rodan have no prior history that led to the parent/child thing.


....reread. that was sarcasm, right? You think I'd have figured out how to notice it in here by now.

Anyways, I think it makes some sense. Lots of animals in captivity form weird relationships. Llamas protect animals in their paddock, cheetahs and dogs can be raised as siblings, and a bobcat once became friends with a regular house cat. Also, the Showa series has made it abduntly clear a large portion of the kaiju are at least semi-sentient, so it makes more sense for a peaceful parent relationship to happen. At least that's my take.


Okay haha, no what I said is that it is my headcanon that Rodan and Baragon share 0, zilch, nada correlation other than the two seconds of screen time they share in Destroy All Monsters. I despise the idea that Rodan raised Baragon, I think it's utterly stupid and pointless.
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Re: Kaiju Headcanon Thread

Postby SoggyNoodles2016 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:41 am

Maritonic wrote:
SoggyNoodles2016 wrote:
Maritonic wrote:
Wait, what? It's the best but you agree with my point of view on it? I'm confused :eh:


I meant I agree with your headcanon that Baragon
and Rodan have no prior history that led to the parent/child thing.


....reread. that was sarcasm, right? You think I'd have figured out how to notice it in here by now.

Anyways, I think it makes some sense. Lots of animals in captivity form weird relationships. Llamas protect animals in their paddock, cheetahs and dogs can be raised as siblings, and a bobcat once became friends with a regular house cat. Also, the Showa series has made it abduntly clear a large portion of the kaiju are at least semi-sentient, so it makes more sense for a peaceful parent relationship to happen. At least that's my take.


Okay haha, no what I said is that it is my headcanon that Rodan and Baragon share 0, zilch, nada correlation other than the two seconds of screen time they share in Destroy All Monsters. I despise the idea that Rodan raised Baragon, I think it's utterly stupid and pointless.

Yeah, I know. I was just expressing how I thought It was possible. I agree, it does make no sense. But apparently there were also two King Ghidorahs, both Desghidorah and Grand King Ghidorah wiped out the dinosaurs, and Hagan (I don't want to kill kittens) is running around the Hesei universe. Supplementary info for these films make no skreeonking sense but it's fun to imagine.
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Re: Kaiju Headcanon Thread

Postby Maritonic » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:43 am

SoggyNoodles2016 wrote:
Maritonic wrote:
SoggyNoodles2016 wrote:
I meant I agree with your headcanon that Baragon
and Rodan have no prior history that led to the parent/child thing.


....reread. that was sarcasm, right? You think I'd have figured out how to notice it in here by now.

Anyways, I think it makes some sense. Lots of animals in captivity form weird relationships. Llamas protect animals in their paddock, cheetahs and dogs can be raised as siblings, and a bobcat once became friends with a regular house cat. Also, the Showa series has made it abduntly clear a large portion of the kaiju are at least semi-sentient, so it makes more sense for a peaceful parent relationship to happen. At least that's my take.


Okay haha, no what I said is that it is my headcanon that Rodan and Baragon share 0, zilch, nada correlation other than the two seconds of screen time they share in Destroy All Monsters. I despise the idea that Rodan raised Baragon, I think it's utterly stupid and pointless.

Yeah, I know. I was just expressing how I thought It was possible. I agree, it does make no sense. But apparently there were also two King Ghidorahs, both Desghidorah and Grand King Ghidorah wiped out the dinosaurs, and Hagan (I don't want to kill kittens) is running around the Hesei universe. Supplementary info for these films make no skreeonking sense but it's fun to imagine.


Yeah no I mean, it's there. Can't say it's not. That's why it's my headcanon that the Rodan thing isn't there. The Ghidorah/dinosaur thing never bothered me, but I guess that's because those Mothra films always felt self-contained as it was. -shrug- I dunno.
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Re: Kaiju Headcanon Thread

Postby eabaker » Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:39 am

Zarm wrote:they only fulfilled a predestination paradox and put him exactly where he was always supposed to be to become Heisei Godzilla


This is the one point where my interpretation of the movie varies ever so slightly from yours. The way that I read it, they did alter history (hence Godzilla no longer being where they expected him to be), but that the proliferation of nuclear materials made this Godzilla a historical inevitability; no matter where they put him, he would eventually become Godzilla.
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Re: Kaiju Headcanon Thread

Postby Ivo-goji » Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:40 am

The set up of King Ghidorah "stealing" Godzilla's origin story only works if Godzilla really was born from the nuclear detonation on Lagos in the original timeline. Ergo the Futurians technically succeeded in their plan, only for history to guarantee Godzilla's creation anyway via the Russian nuclear submarine.

The stable time loop interpretation isn't compatible with how time travel is depicted in the story.
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Re: Kaiju Headcanon Thread

Postby Zarm » Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:00 pm

Ivo-goji wrote:The set up of King Ghidorah "stealing" Godzilla's origin story only works if Godzilla really was born from the nuclear detonation on Lagos in the original timeline. Ergo the Futurians technically succeeded in their plan, only for history to guarantee Godzilla's creation anyway via the Russian nuclear submarine.

The stable time loop interpretation isn't compatible with how time travel is depicted in the story.


That's a good point; King Ghidorah's creation necessitates that an event did occur there. So... yeah, I guess eabaker's interpretation is correct... and I still didn't fully understand this film. :) (Which makes me doubt that I do now).


I am curious, though- what future is the framing story set in? And does she return to the same one at the end? In theory, it would be kind of a dystopia... new Godzilla's rampage went unchecked. Fire Rodan would either still be around, or Godzilla killed him in a vicious battle over Junior; no Mechagodzilla, thus no MOGUERA; theoretically, SpaceGodzilla should've conquered the world and humanity would be extinct. Unless... I dunno, ripple effect; Fire Rodan helped in MOGEURA's place, or something? (Or, I suppose, alternately- Mothra was the true origin of SpaceGodzilla all along, and altered events mean she never went to space in this timeline, thus no SpaceGodzilla at all; that may be the most plausible option?)

Otherwise, it would seem not to be a timeline extended from the current moment she left from. But it would also seem not to be the future she left from, since Godzilla's return was already having an impact (like killing a major influential industrialist).

Could it have been the future of the Heisei universe as it would come to be after vs. Destroyah (the one she 'created' by coming back), in which Japan's godzilla-free future was gone, but the technology benefit gained by reverse-engineering Mecha-KG had still led to a prosperous time? It seems paradoxical for that to already exist.

And for that matter- since coming back as Mecha King-Ghidorah (and leaving that tech to be reverse-engineered) made such an impact, could the future she returned to possibly be anything like either her origin timeline or the one that built Mecha King-Ghidorah? It seems not, unless somehow there was predestination, they were already the 'final' timeline, and created themselves by sending Emi back with MKG. It feels to me like there would have to be at least three versions of the same future year- version A, from which the Futurians came, version B, to which Emi returned and we witnessed, and version C- the actual future of the Heisei timeline- to which she returns. All should be vastly different from one-another, trading economic prosperity for a post-Godzilla legacy, and then a ravaged post-Godzilla legacy to a post-Godzilla-legacy-with-incredible-technological-boost.


Also... apparently there are two headless remains of King Ghidorah lying at the bottom of the ocean for hundreds of years (unless Japan hauled back the whole carcass rather than just the tech). That is... amusing, for some reason.
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Re: Kaiju Headcanon Thread

Postby eabaker » Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:43 pm

Zarm wrote:I am curious, though- what future is the framing story set in?


My interpretation:

If there are three timelines (and I would break them down exactly as you do), I would say the framing scenes take place in timeline B. So, most of the movie is events as related by Emi in a future where Japan was devastated by Godzilla, and we never get to see timelines A or C.

And, yeah, the two KG corpses thing has occurred to me as well. What would happen if they just kept creating new MKGs from the steadily growing collection of decapitated Ghidorahs at sea?
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Re: Kaiju Headcanon Thread

Postby Ivo-goji » Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:49 pm

Zarm wrote:I am curious, though- what future is the framing story set in? And does she return to the same one at the end?

Emi basically went to a different world every time she changed the past.
King Ghidorah's body obviously wasn't always there, for example. Each instance of time travel created a new future.
Or, I suppose, alternately- Mothra was the true origin of SpaceGodzilla all along, and altered events mean she never went to space in this timeline, thus no SpaceGodzilla at all; that may be the most plausible option?)

Yes. None of the other events of the Heisei series would have happened unless Godzilla was awakened and beaten by MKG.

Could it have been the future of the Heisei universe as it would come to be after vs. Destroyah (the one she 'created' by coming back), in which Japan's godzilla-free future was gone, but the technology benefit gained by reverse-engineering Mecha-KG had still led to a prosperous time? It seems paradoxical for that to already exist.

I'm not sure what you're asking.

Thematically speaking, Emi made the choice to reject the Futurians' globalist agenda so she could give her ancestors a fair chance to build a better future for Japan. The later Heisei films having G-Force reverse engineer MKG doesn't really matter, Japan will become technologically prosperous because the heroes made the best decisions for their families and their nation, not because of the time travel.

Predestination wouldn't mesh with the idea that Emi's shifting loyalties effected different outcomes in Japan's future and undermines the film's message of ethnic pride in the face of guilt over the country's history.
And for that matter- since coming back as Mecha King-Ghidorah (and leaving that tech to be reverse-engineered) made such an impact, could the future she returned to possibly be anything like either her origin timeline or the one that built Mecha King-Ghidorah? It seems not, unless somehow there was predestination, they were already the 'final' timeline, and created themselves by sending Emi back with MKG.

Why not? Like I said, predestination would contradict the idea that Emi's decisions had consequences. The Futurians failed because of their ideology, not because the future was set in stone.
It feels to me like there would have to be at least three versions of the same future year- version A, from which the Futurians came, version B, to which Emi returned and we witnessed, and version C- the actual future of the Heisei timeline- to which she returns. All should be vastly different from one-another, trading economic prosperity for a post-Godzilla legacy, and then a ravaged post-Godzilla legacy to a post-Godzilla-legacy-with-incredible-technological-boost.

I think you're too hung up on the mechanics of cause and effect. Emi destroyed the original, good future because she betrayed her nation, and was able to make a new future possible after she repented and embraced her responsibility to the past. The details about how the timelines would be similar or different aren't important except in how they influence the characters' motivations.
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Re: Kaiju Headcanon Thread

Postby Zarm » Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:16 am

Ivo-goji wrote:
Zarm wrote:Or, I suppose, alternately- Mothra was the true origin of SpaceGodzilla all along, and altered events mean she never went to space in this timeline, thus no SpaceGodzilla at all; that may be the most plausible option?)

Yes. None of the other events of the Heisei series would have happened unless Godzilla was awakened and beaten by MKG.


Recall at this point that Godzilla had awakened and defeated King Ghidorah, So in theory, this timeline be that we are seeing is the future of that - 1 which Godzilla has awakened, and Biollante has already gone into space - so she is the origin for SpaceGodzilla, SpaceGodzilla should be inevitable - but there is no future technology to reverse engineer. Which means that although babies egg will still be found, and Rodan and Godzilla will still fight, there will be no Mechagodzilla. The events of Godzilla versus Mothra colon battle for Earth should still be inevitable and I changed, meaning Mothra will go into space and guaranteeing, unless one where to argue that something in the defeat of Godzilla it wouldn't have? And then, again, SpaceGodzilla and without any future technology, have destroyed the Earth. Not to mention Destoroyah. Yet somehow, we are in a future where no reverse-engineered high technology existed during the Heisei, and yet, the world has not been destroyed.

The only two ways that I can see that being plausible are:
1. If the ripple effect of that reverse engineering technology itself somehow lead to the events of Mothra vs Godzilla (perhaps Godzilla's unchecked rampage destroyed enough polluting industry to stave off triggering Battra), and in turn, Mothra becomes the definitive origin for SpaceGodzilla rather than Biollante, despite the design similarities.
Or
2. Without the high technology, enough Kaiju survived -Fire Rodan, and maybe due to alternate events as mentioned in #1, Vattra lived and went to divert the meteor while Mothra remained on Earth- that working together, they were able to defeat SpaceGodzilla despite the lack of a MOGUERA.


Ivo-goji wrote:
Zarm wrote:Could it have been the future of the Heisei universe as it would come to be after vs. Destroyah (the one she 'created' by coming back), in which Japan's godzilla-free future was gone, but the technology benefit gained by reverse-engineering Mecha-KG had still led to a prosperous time? It seems paradoxical for that to already exist.

I'm not sure what you're asking.


What I was asking is, due to the unlikelihood of Timeline B being able to exist, due to the aforementioned issue with the world seeming to face destruction if Japan hadn't had the reverse-engineered future technology, I was theorizing whether the timeline we see Emi in, where she's petitioning them to build Mecha-King Ghidorah, is somehow already Timeline C, the final actual future that eventually results from the Heisei timeline, in which all the movies happened as we know them... since that seems to be the only timeline with an actual survivable future, other than the original that the Futurians came from. But of course, if she were already in that timeline, then when the people of that time line built Mecha-King Ghidorah, it would be a paradox, as they would be creating their own version of the future.

Ivo-goji wrote:
Zarm wrote:The later Heisei films having G-Force reverse engineer MKG doesn't really matter, Japan will become technologically prosperous because the heroes made the best decisions for their families and their nation, not because of the time travel.

Yes, but that Prosperity was achieved due to Godzilla's in activity. With the reverse engineering of the technology in the final version of the timeline, I could see the future continuing to prosper because though Godzilla was around, he was dealt with. But in the future of the timeline that we see her travel too, where Godzilla has awoken and his rampaging and there is no future technology to keep him in check, it seems that that Prosperity would be unlikely due to Japan repeatedly being helpless before invasions by Godzilla from the 1990s onward. And again, that leaves a side the question above of whether they could even survive the events of the 1990s without that reverse engineered technology in place. That is why I am questioning the simply because she's in has a supercharged Godzilla on the loose and other monsters that we know from future films are lurking in the wings and waiting to appear, but without any of the needed technology that they used to deal with those kaiju.

It feels to me like there would have to be at least three versions of the same future year- version A, from which the Futurians came, version B, to which Emi returned and we witnessed, and version C- the actual future of the Heisei timeline- to which she returns. All should be vastly different from one-another, trading economic prosperity for a post-Godzilla legacy, and then a ravaged post-Godzilla legacy to a post-Godzilla-legacy-with-incredible-technological-boost.

I think you're too hung up on the mechanics of cause and effect. Emi destroyed the original, good future because she betrayed her nation, and was able to make a new future possible after she repented and embraced her responsibility to the past. The details about how the timelines would be similar or different aren't important except in how they influence the characters' motivations.


Well, no- I would not say that I'm getting hung up on the mechanics so much I was trying to discuss the mechanics themselves. :) Above, this conversation started because I was trying to break down the events of the film, and to actually understanding what is happening. To break down and analyze the time-travel the events of the film for a clear understanding of what supposed to be happening during the narrative. Now, I'm trying to extend that analysis to the Future framing segments, to understand exactly what went down.

I do understand what you are saying themeatically, but logistically, I'm trying to figure out how there is still a future for Emi to return to at the point that she does, in which the world has not been destroyed, and also to identify (as I think that we are all in agreement on) whether they were multiple fiture timelines.

In theory, the place that Emi goes to is one in which the Futurians never existed, and one wonders how much work she had to do to reach the social position which she is in, apparently with an influential figure diving to view King Ghidorah's remains and making her pitch- or whether she was capitalizing on some relationship that existed with her alternate self in the future, etc. There are many tantalizing questions for fans of time travel stories.

But also, presumably, the future to which returns at the end is one in which neither the Futurians as rebels, nor Emi's own efforts and the construction effort of building Mecha-King Ghidorah, ever existed, and one in which the technology is much higher, quite possibly, than either the ones that she left. (In Timeline A, time travel was clearly a reality, as were androids, but that was from technology slowly developing at a normal pace. In Timeline B, we have no idea if they were more or less advanced- because there was an unchecked Godzilla, I would tend to assume 'less' due to various setbacks) and the technology used to create Mecha-King Ghidorah constituted the pinnacle of technology. In Timeline C, presumably, the technology used create Mecha-King Ghidorah is antiquated, due to the severe technical boost that Japan received in reverse-engineering it in the past. They'd be much further along by that point.

Therefore, Emi's not returning to her own time at the end so much as to a completely alien world- although, possibly one that is more advanced and utopic than either of the ones she'd left. But it will be a completely new and foreign country to her, and possibly one in which she is as out-of-place as the present day humans were amidst the high-technology of her future ship.

But, these musings were largely secondary to the question of that middle timeline where Mecha-King Ghidorah is built, and how it could have existed, which is the primary thing I wanted to explore. So much time and effort has been spent in detailing the logistics of how time travel actually works in this movie with regards for the past in the present, I just wanted to expand that analysis to the future as well, since all three influence each other, and it's still a missing piece of completely mapping out the logistics of this complex movie.
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Re: Kaiju Headcanon Thread

Postby eabaker » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:01 am

I don't think it makes sense to try to analyze the movie's events in terms of events that happened in subsequent movies. If there is any logical/continuity problem created by a subsequent movie, that doesn't mean that GvsKG doesn't make sense; it means that the later movie doesn't make sense in context of GvsKG.
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Re: Kaiju Headcanon Thread

Postby Zarm » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:06 am

eabaker wrote:I don't think it makes sense to try to analyze the movie's events in terms of events that happened in subsequent movies. If there is any logical/continuity problem created by a subsequent movie, that doesn't mean that GvsKG doesn't make sense; it means that the later movie doesn't make sense in context of GvsKG.


In the real world, certainly. But in a shared universe where each new entry is revealing something new about the same continuous timeline/universe...

I feel like we're talking too different languages here. You guys are on filmcraft and theme; I'm on continuity and fan theory and generally nerdier, 'assume-it-was-a-real-world-being-portrayed-here,-then-how-would-that-work?' stuff. :)

(Though that said, analyzing how the three timelines would work in an intent-within-this-film sense would be a more valid complement to interpreting that movie. In that case, timeline B becomes less implausible... but also interesting that the detrimental effects of Godzilla's unchecked return don't seem to have halted future development and progress that much).
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Re: Kaiju Headcanon Thread

Postby eabaker » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:08 am

Zarm wrote:
eabaker wrote:I don't think it makes sense to try to analyze the movie's events in terms of events that happened in subsequent movies. If there is any logical/continuity problem created by a subsequent movie, that doesn't mean that GvsKG doesn't make sense; it means that the later movie doesn't make sense in context of GvsKG.


In the real world, certainly. But in a shared universe where each new entry is revealing something new about the same continuous timeline/universe...

I feel like we're talking too different languages here. You guys are on filmcraft and theme; I'm on continuity and fan theory and generally nerdier, 'assume-it-was-a-real-world-being-portrayed-here,-then-how-would-that-work?' stuff. :)


I am talking about continuity and fan theory, too; I'm just saying, if it doesn't work, that's not the fault of the earlier work, but of the later one.

I'm also not sure if I fully understand your issue with timeline B, though. I'm not sure if I missed something in one of your posts, or if there are just some dots I'm not connection, but I just don't see why the existence of that timeline is implausible.
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Re: Kaiju Headcanon Thread

Postby Zarm » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:25 am

eabaker wrote:
Zarm wrote:
eabaker wrote:I don't think it makes sense to try to analyze the movie's events in terms of events that happened in subsequent movies. If there is any logical/continuity problem created by a subsequent movie, that doesn't mean that GvsKG doesn't make sense; it means that the later movie doesn't make sense in context of GvsKG.


In the real world, certainly. But in a shared universe where each new entry is revealing something new about the same continuous timeline/universe...

I feel like we're talking too different languages here. You guys are on filmcraft and theme; I'm on continuity and fan theory and generally nerdier, 'assume-it-was-a-real-world-being-portrayed-here,-then-how-would-that-work?' stuff. :)


I am talking about continuity and fan theory, too; I'm just saying, if it doesn't work, that's not the fault of the earlier work, but of the later one.

I'm also not sure if I fully understand your issue with timeline B, though. I'm not sure if I missed something in one of your posts, or if there are just some dots I'm not connection, but I just don't see why the existence of that timeline is implausible.


Again, in real-life, I would agree; but I tend to think of fictional universes as less a product of their entries and more a (supposed- in reality, very-seldom successful) real setting of which the various entries are merely chronicles. If you have a 5-volume set of history and something in the Middle Ages and something in World War I seem to clash (but both are 'verified' accounts of the actual history), it's not a question of which volume was published first, but of how events could actually occur as they did and still make sense. In reality, sometimes it's irreconcilable- but at the start, I approach something like this as if the universe was a contiguous unit (as described by multiple film entries), and try to figure out how one piece (in this case, the future of the Heisei timeline in GvsKG) would work in light of that whole.


My issue with Timeline B is that (in that wholistic view), it is the future of a world where Godzilla was awakened, Biollante has gone to space and Mothra (most likely) will still go to space, thus Spacegodzzila will be created... but no Mecha-King Ghidorah has been created, so there was no future tech to reverse-engineer, thus no MechaGodzilla, and no MOGUERA, who was rather crucial to saving the Earth from annihilation by SpaceGodzilla.

Hence, this is the future of a world where the events seeding SpaceGodzilla's creation have already been sewn (making him an inevitability*), and Godzilla has already been unleashed, but the technology key to stopping both of them (and probably stopping Godzilla's meltdown from destroying the world in GvsD) has not been created- thus, it is a point in time which doesn't seem to have a viable, survivable future... which is only created after Mecha-King Ghidorah is built. So it doesn't seem like a viable future should exist from that point in time.


Meanwhile, from an in-film only perspective, the problem is less severe; it just seems interesting that the technological progress of humanity in this Godzilla-is-awakened timeline doesn't seem that stunted from the technological progress in the original Godzilla-never-awoke-from-ANEB timeline. (Although, for all we know, maybe the Mecha-King Ghidorah tech would actually be incredibly primitive to the original timeline the Futurians were from, and humanity actually is a hundred years behind, and that's why M11's brain is the CPU... because his tech from an erased timeline is far more sophisticated than any central processor that the humanity of Timeline B can come up with. Perhaps time-travel and androids are 300-years advanced, and MKG tech is only 200 years advanced, representing a regression of how far humanity had gotten, and we just can't tell because it's all future-tech to us. :) )

So those were the logistical issues I was pontificating on/trying to figure out.


*Again, unless the lack of Mecha-King ghidorah somehow alters the events of Gvs:BfE, and Mothra is the actual sole origin of SpaceGodzilla
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Re: Kaiju Headcanon Thread

Postby Ivo-goji » Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:21 am

Zarm wrote:Recall at this point that Godzilla had awakened and defeated King Ghidorah, So in theory, this timeline be that we are seeing is the future of that - 1 which Godzilla has awakened, and Biollante has already gone into space - so she is the origin for SpaceGodzilla, SpaceGodzilla should be inevitable -

Put simply, Mothra was the real origin for SpaceGodzilla, and unless Godzilla is defeated by MKG circumstances won't make it so he encounters Mothra. That is the simplest explanation (besides the real world explanation that SpaceGodzilla didn't exist when GvsKG was written).

but there is no future technology to reverse engineer. Which means that although babies egg will still be found, and Rodan and Godzilla will still fight, there will be no Mechagodzilla. The events of Godzilla versus Mothra colon battle for Earth should still be inevitable and I changed, meaning Mothra will go into space and guaranteeing, unless one where to argue that something in the defeat of Godzilla it wouldn't have? And then, again, SpaceGodzilla and without any future technology, have destroyed the Earth. Not to mention Destoroyah.

Without encountering Godzilla, Battra doesn't die and goes into space to deflect the meteor. SpaceGodzilla doesn't exist because Mothra didn't fight Godzilla. Destoroyah either didn't emerge because the tunnel project that unearthed the pre-cambrian microorganisms didn't happen or he was defeated without Godzilla's help, which they should be able to do in any timeline thanks to the Super X-3.
Yet somehow, we are in a future where no reverse-engineered high technology existed during the Heisei, and yet, the world has not been destroyed.

Again: the idea of humanity reverse engineering MKG only comes in two films after GVsKG, it's not relevant to how the future plays out in that film. Japan already had advanced technology in the Heisei series like the Super X before they got MKG. MKG wasn't the deciding factor in Japan's development.

The only two ways that I can see that being plausible are:
1. If the ripple effect of that reverse engineering technology itself somehow lead to the events of Mothra vs Godzilla

The ending, Zarm, the ending. Mecha King Ghidorah defeated Godzilla and forced him into temporary dormancy at the bottom of the ocean, then at the start of Godzilla vs Mothra he is awakened by a meteor impact. If that hadn't happened Godzilla wouldn't have encountered Battra or Mothra the way he did.

What I was asking is, due to the unlikelihood of Timeline B being able to exist, due to the aforementioned issue with the world seeming to face destruction if Japan hadn't had the reverse-engineered future technology

As I explained in the previous post, Japan never needed the future tech, they already had the capability to make those advances on their own.

I was theorizing whether the timeline we see Emi in, where she's petitioning them to build Mecha-King Ghidorah, is somehow already Timeline C, the final actual future that eventually results from the Heisei timeline, in which all the movies happened as we know them... since that seems to be the only timeline with an actual survivable future, other than the original that the Futurians came from. But of course, if she were already in that timeline, then when the people of that time line built Mecha-King Ghidorah, it would be a paradox, as they would be creating their own version of the future.

There's no compelling reason to think that?

Zarm wrote:Yes, but that Prosperity was achieved due to Godzilla's in activity. With the reverse engineering of the technology in the final version of the timeline, I could see the future continuing to prosper because though Godzilla was around, he was dealt with. But in the future of the timeline that we see her travel too, where Godzilla has awoken and his rampaging and there is no future technology to keep him in check, it seems that that Prosperity would be unlikely due to Japan repeatedly being helpless before invasions by Godzilla from the 1990s onward.

No one ever said the timeline Mecha King Ghidorah came from was prosperous. Japan's economic supremacy and the creation of MKG aren't dependent on each other.

Godzilla devastating Japan in 1992 doesn't mean technology stagnated all over the world for 200 years.

And again, that leaves a side the question above of whether they could even survive the events of the 1990s without that reverse engineered technology in place. That is why I am questioning the simply because she's in has a supercharged Godzilla on the loose and other monsters that we know from future films are lurking in the wings and waiting to appear, but without any of the needed technology that they used to deal with those kaiju.

You're assuming the survival of humanity hinges on a single plot point only brought up in Godzilla vs Mechagodzilla II, when there are many factors in-universe that would help them overcome these threats without it.

I do understand what you are saying themeatically, but logistically, I'm trying to figure out how there is still a future for Emi to return to at the point that she does, in which the world has not been destroyed, and also to identify (as I think that we are all in agreement on) whether they were multiple fiture timelines.

And the themes of the movie rule out the idea that Japan's social evolution depends on reverse engineered future technology or bootstrap paradoxes, which should make things simpler.

Therefore, Emi's not returning to her own time at the end so much as to a completely alien world- although, possibly one that is more advanced and utopic than either of the ones she'd left. But it will be a completely new and foreign country to her, and possibly one in which she is as out-of-place as the present day humans were amidst the high-technology of her future ship.

Maybe, maybe not. It is possible the future could have become unrecognizable from all the changes, but the In Spite of a Nail trope also exists. The whole plot of Godzilla vs King Ghidorah is basically an In Spite of a Nail story.

But, these musings were largely secondary to the question of that middle timeline where Mecha-King Ghidorah is built, and how it could have existed, which is the primary thing I wanted to explore. So much time and effort has been spent in detailing the logistics of how time travel actually works in this movie with regards for the past in the present, I just wanted to expand that analysis to the future as well, since all three influence each other, and it's still a missing piece of completely mapping out the logistics of this complex movie.

I don't feel that anything's missing.
Last edited by Ivo-goji on Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kaiju Headcanon Thread

Postby Zarm » Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:49 am

Ivo-goji wrote:Without encountering Godzilla, Battra doesn't die and goes into space to deflect the meteor. SpaceGodzilla doesn't exist because Mothra didn't fight Godzilla. Destoroyah either didn't emerge because the tunnel project that unearthed the pre-cambrian microorganisms didn't happen or he was defeated without Godzilla's help, which they should be able to do in any timeline thanks to the Super X-3.


That is, assuming the Super X-3 and its weaponry didn't incorporate any of the reverse-engineered tech... (I would tend more toward the notion that Destroyah was not awakened).


Yet somehow, we are in a future where no reverse-engineered high technology existed during the Heisei, and yet, the world has not been destroyed.
Again: the idea of humanity reverse engineering MKG only comes in two films after GVsKG, it's not relevant to how the future plays out in that film. Japan already had advanced technology in the Heisei series like the Super X before they got MKG. MKG wasn't the deciding factor in Japan's development.


However, the level of advanced tech is relevant to humanity's eventual survival. I don't think the tech to defeat SpaceGodzilla would have existed had humanity only continued from the point they'd built the Super-X2.


The only two ways that I can see that being plausible are:
1. If the ripple effect of that reverse engineering technology itself somehow lead to the events of Mothra vs Godzilla
The ending, Zarm, the ending. Mecha King Ghidorah defeated Godzilla and forced him into temporary dormancy at the bottom of the ocean, then at the start of Godzilla vs Mothra he is awakened by a meteor impact. If that hadn't happened Godzilla wouldn't have encountered Battra or Mothra the way he did.


Possibly. Though if he never went into dormancy, there's no reason that he wouldn't, so I wouldn't take that as a given. But I do agree that it's the most plausible explanation, along with Mothra being the source for SpaceGodzilla (which I hate; the Biollante design influences are clearly there), based on how the film-series developed.

What I was asking is, due to the unlikelihood of Timeline B being able to exist, due to the aforementioned issue with the world seeming to face destruction if Japan hadn't had the reverse-engineered future technology

As I explained in the previous post, Japan never needed the future tech, they already had the capability to make those advances on their own.

In, what- 4 years? I don't believe so. MOGUERA was more powerful than MechaGodzilla; MechaGodzilla was only possible due to future-tech. Sure, they could have gotten there eventually... but had it ready in time to save the world? I'd doubt that.

I was theorizing whether the timeline we see Emi in, where she's petitioning them to build Mecha-King Ghidorah, is somehow already Timeline C, the final actual future that eventually results from the Heisei timeline, in which all the movies happened as we know them... since that seems to be the only timeline with an actual survivable future, other than the original that the Futurians came from. But of course, if she were already in that timeline, then when the people of that time line built Mecha-King Ghidorah, it would be a paradox, as they would be creating their own version of the future.
There's no compelling reason to think that?

Again, unless one factors in the unsurvivability of SpaceGodzilla without future-tech, in which case there is a very compelling reason to consider the possibility. Either this, or an aversion of the events from the last two films in the series. But of the two options, I do find the latter, as we discussed above, the more likely.


And again, that leaves a side the question above of whether they could even survive the events of the 1990s without that reverse engineered technology in place. That is why I am questioning the simply because she's in has a supercharged Godzilla on the loose and other monsters that we know from future films are lurking in the wings and waiting to appear, but without any of the needed technology that they used to deal with those kaiju.
You're assuming the survival of humanity hinges on a single plot point only brought up in Godzilla vs Mechagodzilla II, when there are many factors in-universe that would help them overcome these threats without it.

I am- but only because that plot-point is linked to a future plot-point that is key to averting an apocalyptic threat. The latter two films of the series play with foes that could wipe out all human life, and are defeated by very specific things. Hence the aforementioned assumptions.


But, these musings were largely secondary to the question of that middle timeline where Mecha-King Ghidorah is built, and how it could have existed, which is the primary thing I wanted to explore. So much time and effort has been spent in detailing the logistics of how time travel actually works in this movie with regards for the past in the present, I just wanted to expand that analysis to the future as well, since all three influence each other, and it's still a missing piece of completely mapping out the logistics of this complex movie.
I don't feel that anything's missing.


Which is why we continue to talk at cross-purposes. :)
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Re: Kaiju Headcanon Thread

Postby Ivo-goji » Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:13 am

Zarm wrote:That is, assuming the Super X-3 and its weaponry didn't incorporate any of the reverse-engineered tech...

MKG didn't have cryo weapons and no one in GvsD says it was built with MKG assistance. It definitely wasn't the filmmakers' intention that the Super X-3 be the product of future tech.


However, the level of advanced tech is relevant to humanity's eventual survival. I don't think the tech to defeat SpaceGodzilla would have existed had humanity only continued from the point they'd built the Super-X2.

Possibly. Though if he never went into dormancy, there's no reason that he wouldn't, so I wouldn't take that as a given. But I do agree that it's the most plausible explanation, along with Mothra being the source for SpaceGodzilla (which I hate; the Biollante design influences are clearly there), based on how the film-series developed.

They didn't need a super weapon to fight SpaceGodzilla if SpaceGodzilla didn't exist.

In, what- 4 years? I don't believe so. MOGUERA was more powerful than MechaGodzilla; MechaGodzilla was only possible due to future-tech. Sure, they could have gotten there eventually... but had it ready in time to save the world? I'd doubt that.

We've already established that they wouldn't need Moguera if SpaceGodzilla was never born.

Again, unless one factors in the unsurvivability of SpaceGodzilla without future-tech, in which case there is a very compelling reason to consider the possibility. Either this, or an aversion of the events from the last two films in the series. But of the two options, I do find the latter, as we discussed above, the more likely.

There you go.
I am- but only because that plot-point is linked to a future plot-point that is key to averting an apocalyptic threat. The latter two films of the series play with foes that could wipe out all human life, and are defeated by very specific things. Hence the aforementioned assumptions.

But it's more sensible to interpret GvsKG on its own and then conform our understanding of the later films in light of that interpretation, rather than trying to retroactively apply their events to GvsKG's story.
Last edited by Ivo-goji on Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Kaiju Headcanon Thread

Postby Maritonic » Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:51 am

This is one reason I despise time travel in films. I try very hard not to over think or apply any logic to them, because time travel stuff just makes you go nuts. Isn't there a line about that sort of thing in Looper?
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Re: Kaiju Headcanon Thread

Postby Snake » Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:04 am

This isn't so much headcanon as it is just elaborating upon an underutilized idea. Remember the Ultra-Low Temperature technology that temporarily froze Godzilla in Destoroyah? I was having a conversation with my buddy KaijuX about other potential uses for it, and some interesting avenues came up. For instance, ULT lasers could be used for in construction work. Freezing a condemned building and then shattering it would be quicker and more cost-effective than rigging it with conventional explosives. The stuff could also be used as a means of life extension, or even cryogenic incarceration, a la Demolition Man.
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Re: Kaiju Headcanon Thread

Postby SoggyNoodles2016 » Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:13 pm

Some more I've thought up since my last post.

* Godzilla Earth used to be an animal. Or at least, non-plant. He slowly turned into the form seen by the films thorugh a combination of evolution and the ecosystem growing around him, like how mini-ecosystems of bugs and moss form in sloth fur.
* Anime Mechagodzilla is VERY intelligent. How so? I think it is completely possible that the AI knew they couldn't beat Godzilla in their current form and so, it purposely turned itself off to grow into the Mechagodzilla city to even the odds. At the least, this gives Mechagodzilla a much more pronounced role, going from a tool for the Bilusado to the new master with them as it's tools. That seems pretty Urobuchi, if you ask me.
* Megaguirus, or at least a version of her, exists in the Showa universe.
* Building on my juvenile Varan on Monsterland theory, there is a 50 meter parent somewhere on the island.
* (based of a fan dub) in the future of the Showa universe, the remaining cells of Frankenstein and the Gargauntas are studied and implemented into human research. This leads to a virus which mutates humans into giants. Or to be more specific, Titans. This is how the live action Attack on Titan films happened. I'm a big fan of this, partially because it incorporates Higuchi's main inspiration into the films but mostly because the possibility of somewhere outside the walls, Showa Godzilla is going to town on the titans in full wrestler/superhero mode is skreeonking hilarious.
* Heisei King Ghidorah, outside of mind control, is nowhere near the sadistic abomination his previous and next incarnation are. At worst, he's a more destructive Rodan.
* The Heisei Universe takes place in the same timeline/universe as one or more Ultraman series. Mostly because it makes everyone's lax reactions to giant monsters, super tech, psychics, possible aliens and other weirdness make more sense if this kind of thing happens every other week.
* Godzillaland is canon. I dont know how, but it is.

And now, a few non-Toho ones.

* The orginal King Kong was a subadult and grew from 25 feet on Skull Island to 50 in New York during the journey on the Venture.
* All incarnations of Gamera have the ability to influence fire in any way such as full body covering or the plasma fist, but don't use it due to its unpredictable nature threatening the humans they care about.
* The Atlanteans didn't make Gamera and Gyaos out of specific animals, they just kind of happened.
* In the multiple Cloverfield universes, there are at least a few where Godzilla also exsits. In most of those universes, Clover ended up living due to Godzilla taking pity on them. I also like to think in at least one Showa style timeline, Godzilla straight up adopted Clover. Mostly because I feel bad for Clover dying alone.
Last edited by SoggyNoodles2016 on Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kaiju Headcanon Thread

Postby Coobzilla03 » Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:48 pm

SoggyNoodles2016 wrote:
* The orginal King Kong was a subadult and grew from 25 feet on Skull Island to 50 in New York during the journey on the Venture.

You could also say that 1962 King Kong is the same species as the 1933 Kong but a fully grown adult.
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