Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

Postby Gigantis » Thu Dec 05, 2019 4:58 pm

LSD Jellyfish wrote:
eabaker wrote:
Fish Cakes wrote:Their*


Which word in his post do you think should be replaced by "their"?

Tyrant Lizard King refers to Destoroyah as "his" in the post.

I think kaiju genders are a hot button issue that are mostly superfluous. Fish Cakes brings up that the Hedorah in Godzilla vs. Hedorah is a female. While I like the concept, the only basis that is made on is from a description in a mobile game, that may just be a weird way to explain why the Hedorah in Godzilla Final Wars was noticeably weaker/wasn't an issue (rather than it being a different version of the monster in a movie nearly 30 years later).

It's funny because I think most of the gendered stuff comes from supplementary materials, and westerns fandoms associations with masculinity and femininity. I'm pretty sure Mothra in 1961 actually isn't referred to in Japanese as male or female. I might be wrong (I wasn't looking for it actively) but I'm also wondering, and assume it to be the case, that Mothra might actually be consistently not gendered at all, and this whole "making a Mothra a she" might be western fans internalizing that because Mothra is pretty it must be a woman, in addition to female words used in some of the dubs and supplementary material. I suppose that's why the "Queen of the Monsters" bullshit people peddle especially annoys me. It's funny because actually a lot of early Mothra supplementary material refers to Mothra as a male.

None of this is something I want to debate over, but I'm just pointing out that Fish Cakes interpretation of kaiju's genders is just as equally valid as some other interpretations that people assume to be the norm. The japanese has very gendered language, but lacks conventional pronouns, so it's rare if anything for a kaiju to be given or delegated a gender.

The only kaiju that is ever consistently gendered, is well Minilla, who is literally called "son" in the title. Godzilla has pretty much always been assumed to be a male, and I don't have an issue with that, but Mothra always being assumed to be a female really pisses me off for some reason.

Personally, and unrelated to what I just spoke about, I like to think, that Biollante and MG2 (the 1975 version) are females, because both have female human spirits/controllers.


Except it's been confirmed time and time again by the studio? Same with Biollante and Godzilla (he has King in his title for a reason)

I didn't think about Mechagodzilla though, i might take that as a headcanon!
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

Postby LSD Jellyfish » Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:03 pm

tyrantgoji wrote:
LSD Jellyfish wrote:
eabaker wrote:
Which word in his post do you think should be replaced by "their"?

Tyrant Lizard King refers to Destoroyah as "his" in the post.

I think kaiju genders are a hot button issue that are mostly superfluous. Fish Cakes brings up that the Hedorah in Godzilla vs. Hedorah is a female. While I like the concept, the only basis that is made on is from a description in a mobile game, that may just be a weird way to explain why the Hedorah in Godzilla Final Wars was noticeably weaker/wasn't an issue (rather than it being a different version of the monster in a movie nearly 30 years later).

It's funny because I think most of the gendered stuff comes from supplementary materials, and westerns fandoms associations with masculinity and femininity. I'm pretty sure Mothra in 1961 actually isn't referred to in Japanese as male or female. I might be wrong (I wasn't looking for it actively) but I'm also wondering, and assume it to be the case, that Mothra might actually be consistently not gendered at all, and this whole "making a Mothra a she" might be western fans internalizing that because Mothra is pretty it must be a woman, in addition to female words used in some of the dubs and supplementary material. I suppose that's why the "Queen of the Monsters" bullshit people peddle especially annoys me. It's funny because actually a lot of early Mothra supplementary material refers to Mothra as a male.

None of this is something I want to debate over, but I'm just pointing out that Fish Cakes interpretation of kaiju's genders is just as equally valid as some other interpretations that people assume to be the norm. The japanese has very gendered language, but lacks conventional pronouns, so it's rare if anything for a kaiju to be given or delegated a gender.

The only kaiju that is ever consistently gendered, is well Minilla, who is literally called "son" in the title. Godzilla has pretty much always been assumed to be a male, and I don't have an issue with that, but Mothra always being assumed to be a female really pisses me off for some reason.

Personally, and unrelated to what I just spoke about, I like to think, that Biollante and MG2 (the 1975 version) are females, because both have female human spirits/controllers.


Except it's been confirmed time and time again by the studio? Same with Biollante and Godzilla (he has King in his title for a reason)

I didn't think about Mechagodzilla though, i might take that as a headcanon!

My point was that many of the films, including something like Godzilla 1954, don't ever address or make an effort to give Godzilla a gender. But yeah, I would agree Godzilla is male. My point was with Minilla is that it's one of the few times a kaiju is directly and 100% gendered in Japanese, without any sort of supplementary material or confirmations/de-confirmations from Toho.

There are also those that would argue that what Toho ret-cons or says is irrelevant as well. I watched MOTHRA two nights ago, and I'm like 90% sure Mothra is never labeled as a male or female. Contemporary western supplementary materials at the time actually referred to Mothra as a he.
Last edited by LSD Jellyfish on Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

Postby eabaker » Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:11 pm

LSD Jellyfish wrote:
tyrantgoji wrote:
LSD Jellyfish wrote:Tyrant Lizard King refers to Destoroyah as "his" in the post.

I think kaiju genders are a hot button issue that are mostly superfluous. Fish Cakes brings up that the Hedorah in Godzilla vs. Hedorah is a female. While I like the concept, the only basis that is made on is from a description in a mobile game, that may just be a weird way to explain why the Hedorah in Godzilla Final Wars was noticeably weaker/wasn't an issue (rather than it being a different version of the monster in a movie nearly 30 years later).

It's funny because I think most of the gendered stuff comes from supplementary materials, and westerns fandoms associations with masculinity and femininity. I'm pretty sure Mothra in 1961 actually isn't referred to in Japanese as male or female. I might be wrong (I wasn't looking for it actively) but I'm also wondering, and assume it to be the case, that Mothra might actually be consistently not gendered at all, and this whole "making a Mothra a she" might be western fans internalizing that because Mothra is pretty it must be a woman, in addition to female words used in some of the dubs and supplementary material. I suppose that's why the "Queen of the Monsters" bullshit people peddle especially annoys me. It's funny because actually a lot of early Mothra supplementary material refers to Mothra as a male.

None of this is something I want to debate over, but I'm just pointing out that Fish Cakes interpretation of kaiju's genders is just as equally valid as some other interpretations that people assume to be the norm. The japanese has very gendered language, but lacks conventional pronouns, so it's rare if anything for a kaiju to be given or delegated a gender.

The only kaiju that is ever consistently gendered, is well Minilla, who is literally called "son" in the title. Godzilla has pretty much always been assumed to be a male, and I don't have an issue with that, but Mothra always being assumed to be a female really pisses me off for some reason.

Personally, and unrelated to what I just spoke about, I like to think, that Biollante and MG2 (the 1975 version) are females, because both have female human spirits/controllers.


Except it's been confirmed time and time again by the studio? Same with Biollante and Godzilla (he has King in his title for a reason)

I didn't think about Mechagodzilla though, i might take that as a headcanon!

My point was that many of the films, including something like Godzilla 1954, don't ever address or make an effort to give Godzilla a gender. But yeah, I would agree Godzilla is male. My point was with Minilla is that it's one of the few times a kaiju is directly and 100% gendered in Japanese, without any sort of supplementary material or confirmations/de-confirmations from Toho.

There are also those that would argue that what Toho ret-cons or says is irrelevant as well. I watched MOTHRA two nights ago, and I'm like 90% sure Mothra is never labeled as a male or female. Contemporary western supplementary materials at the time actually referred to Mothra as a he.


I would also point out that Godzilla has been referred to as a "Papa" onscreen.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

Postby LSD Jellyfish » Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:14 pm

Alright then^^

I'm just wondering if Mothra was always designated a female, or if early on it was genderless and it retroactively was assumed to be female.
Last edited by LSD Jellyfish on Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_JNavs_ wrote:The MV is like cheap imitation crabmeat, it tastes good, but it isn't real, while Shin is kino peak Japanese performance.

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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

Postby G2000 » Thu Dec 05, 2019 6:52 pm

LSD Jellyfish wrote:It's funny because I think most of the gendered stuff comes from supplementary materials, and westerns fandoms associations with masculinity and femininity. I'm pretty sure Mothra in 1961 actually isn't referred to in Japanese as male or female. I might be wrong (I wasn't looking for it actively) but I'm also wondering, and assume it to be the case, that Mothra might actually be consistently not gendered at all, and this whole "making a Mothra a she" might be western fans internalizing that because Mothra is pretty it must be a woman, in addition to female words used in some of the dubs and supplementary material. I suppose that's why the "Queen of the Monsters" bullshit people peddle especially annoys me. It's funny because actually a lot of early Mothra supplementary material refers to Mothra as a male.


Mothra is all but outright said to have laid an egg in her second film appearance, it's definitely not the West's fault she's seen as female

but Mothra always being assumed to be a female really pisses me off for some reason


She hasn't though, we've had at least one canonically male Mothra in the form of Leo (and maybe two or three if I'm recalling correctly that Toho said that the twin Mothra larvae in MvG were male and female)
Last edited by G2000 on Thu Dec 05, 2019 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

Postby Fish Cakes » Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:48 pm

eabaker wrote:That being the case, kaiju not being human, "it" is a perfectly acceptable pronoun which produces no singular/plural confusion.

Isn't Destroyah multiple organisms in a single unit though? Their gives a better hivemindy feel. It's been forever since I've seen their movie.

Adding MG2 to my internal list of female kaiju. But can the pilot be changed? If so, she'd be gender fluid. Likewise, Heisei Mechagodzilla and Moguera are Military Vehicles which are often referred to with feminine pronouns as a term of endearment. Does that mean they're female? What of Kiryu who was originally Godzilla but made into a Military Vehicle? Does this make Kiryu trans? These are the hard questions we gotta ask ourselves when we feel the need to correct me calling Destroyah a "her" when I first joined.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

Postby eabaker » Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:00 pm

Fish Cakes wrote:
eabaker wrote:That being the case, kaiju not being human, "it" is a perfectly acceptable pronoun which produces no singular/plural confusion.

Isn't Destroyah multiple organisms in a single unit though? Their gives a better hivemindy feel. It's been forever since I've seen their movie.


I suppose an aggregate entity could be regarded as an individual or a group when unified into a single body. That's one to meditate on...
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

Postby _JNavs_ » Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:20 pm

Any full-on machine is technically a she. Regardless of pilot.

Kiryu is a cyborg, therefore he is still a he.

To put that in perspective, Justice League's Cyborg isn't suddenly half female when he gets his bits replaced by cybernetics.
Last edited by _JNavs_ on Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:23 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

Postby SoggyNoodles2016 » Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:21 pm

G2000 wrote:
LSD Jellyfish wrote:It's funny because I think most of the gendered stuff comes from supplementary materials, and westerns fandoms associations with masculinity and femininity. I'm pretty sure Mothra in 1961 actually isn't referred to in Japanese as male or female. I might be wrong (I wasn't looking for it actively) but I'm also wondering, and assume it to be the case, that Mothra might actually be consistently not gendered at all, and this whole "making a Mothra a she" might be western fans internalizing that because Mothra is pretty it must be a woman, in addition to female words used in some of the dubs and supplementary material. I suppose that's why the "Queen of the Monsters" bullshit people peddle especially annoys me. It's funny because actually a lot of early Mothra supplementary material refers to Mothra as a male.


Mothra is all but outright said to have laid an egg in her second film appearance, it's definitely not the West's fault she's seen as female

but Mothra always being assumed to be a female really pisses me off for some reason


She hasn't though, we've had at least one canonically male Mothra in the form of Leo (and maybe two or three if I'm recalling correctly that Toho said that the twin Mothra larvae in MvG were male and female)


They were.

Also jumping on this train, something tells me the fact every time Mothra's been identified as a female past that early stuff for the 1961 movie maybe means Toho officially made her female.

As for the great gender debate, I have no strong feelings either way. Do what you want, I really care more about the character then their gender.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

Postby LSD Jellyfish » Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:30 pm

_JNavs_ wrote:Any full-on machine is technically a she. Regardless of pilot.

Kiryu is a cyborg, therefore he is still a he.

To put that in perspective, Justice League's Cyborg isn't suddenly half female when he gets his bits replaced by cybernetics.

I'm pretty sure Fish Cakes was partially joking, especially about the cyborg part.

Honestly, I give up. The original post I made was just me being salty this morning.

I will stand by that I thought it was very interesting that Mothra probably wasn't originally intended to be a feminine monster.
Last edited by LSD Jellyfish on Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_JNavs_ wrote:The MV is like cheap imitation crabmeat, it tastes good, but it isn't real, while Shin is kino peak Japanese performance.

Rodan95 wrote:The Shobijin are sat on by a fatass explorer and killed. Mothra is pissed and destroys Japan.

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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

Postby _JNavs_ » Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:35 pm

LSD Jellyfish wrote:
_JNavs_ wrote:Any full-on machine is technically a she. Regardless of pilot.

Kiryu is a cyborg, therefore he is still a he.

To put that in perspective, Justice League's Cyborg isn't suddenly half female when he gets his bits replaced by cybernetics.

I'm pretty sure Fish Cakes was partially joking, especially about the cyborg part.

Honestly, I give up. The original post I made was just me being salty this morning.

Lol oh, tbh I couldn't tell, this whole page seemed knee deep in gender(ing?).

To be fair, Mothra definitely could've been male as you said originally (especially since the screenplay was modeled after Kong and Gojira), but wasn't it the same Mothra as the one from MvG? Or am I misremembering?
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

Postby LSD Jellyfish » Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:37 pm

_JNavs_ wrote:
LSD Jellyfish wrote:
_JNavs_ wrote:Any full-on machine is technically a she. Regardless of pilot.

Kiryu is a cyborg, therefore he is still a he.

To put that in perspective, Justice League's Cyborg isn't suddenly half female when he gets his bits replaced by cybernetics.

I'm pretty sure Fish Cakes was partially joking, especially about the cyborg part.

Honestly, I give up. The original post I made was just me being salty this morning.

Lol oh, tbh I couldn't tell, this whole page seemed knee deep in gender(ing?).

To be fair, Mothra definitely could've been male as you said originally, but wasn't it the same Mothra as the one from MvG? Or am I misremembering?

The OG Mothra in 61 might be the same that appeared in 64, in fact that's likely. But that depends how you view the validity of sequels and retro active continuity.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

Postby G2000 » Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:56 pm

Fish Cakes wrote:Military Vehicles which are often referred to with feminine pronouns as a term of endearment

_JNavs_ wrote:Any full-on machine is technically a she. Regardless of pilot.


Fun fact, this varies country to country. The Germans and the Russians, for example, tend to view their warships as masculine
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

Postby eabaker » Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:16 pm

G2000 wrote:
Fish Cakes wrote:Military Vehicles which are often referred to with feminine pronouns as a term of endearment

_JNavs_ wrote:Any full-on machine is technically a she. Regardless of pilot.


Fun fact, this varies country to country. The Germans and the Russians, for example, tend to view their warships as masculine


And by no means is this a "technical" distinction. It's entirely idiomatic.
Last edited by eabaker on Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

Postby _JNavs_ » Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:22 pm

G2000 wrote:
Fish Cakes wrote:Military Vehicles which are often referred to with feminine pronouns as a term of endearment

_JNavs_ wrote:Any full-on machine is technically a she. Regardless of pilot.


Fun fact, this varies country to country. The Germans and the Russians, for example, tend to view their warships as masculine

I could see why lol, i don't see militaristic missiles on tanks as too feminine. But ya learn something everyday, that's cool to hear. Justifies my OG thoughts that every MG is male.

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eabaker wrote:And by no means is this a "technical" distinction. It's entirely idiomatic.

Ah gotcha. Makes sense, i was just going off of what i generally heard from people who named their vehicles.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

Postby LSD Jellyfish » Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:24 pm

I just talked to two Japanese English teachers where I work and asked them if boats/trains/military vehicles have genders in Japan. They both found the question incredibly confusing. I explained that traditionally in a lot of Western countries, boats/military vehicles are gendered. They were very weirded out by that and said that there's no genders ascribed to military vehicles or anything.

Now, they could be wrong, (due to miscommunication or not getting the level of nuance I'm asking about) but yeah, there's a strong chance that whatever military machine argument people are making here is very pointless.

Also, the only reason why I think that MG2 is female, is because I think that Katsura and MG2 are one in the same. Katsura is the crux of the story, and when she is defeated MG2 is as well (MG2 stops moving and Godzilla finishes off the machine as well). A big part of the climax is the whole "soul in the machine" debate.

I think it's a lost cause to debate the Heisei/SMG's gender, and the OG MG, but there's reasons to argue Kiryu is a male, and MG2 is a female.
Last edited by LSD Jellyfish on Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Rodan95 wrote:The Shobijin are sat on by a fatass explorer and killed. Mothra is pissed and destroys Japan.

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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

Postby Fish Cakes » Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:27 pm

I just want to be able to casually use feminine pronouns for Godzilla kaiju without being like, corrected or whatever? I still see Destroyah, Shin Godzilla, Spacegodzilla, and a few others as feminine, regardless of their canon gender so I refer to them as "her"s. Gender isn't a hard fact for Kaiju because it's irrelevant for their characters most the time (Minya, Leo, Biollante, and MUTOs being a few exceptions.)
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

Postby Godzilla21 » Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:43 pm

Fish Cakes wrote:I just want to be able to casually use feminine pronouns for Godzilla kaiju without being like, corrected or whatever? I still see Destroyah, Shin Godzilla, Spacegodzilla, and a few others as feminine, regardless of their canon gender so I refer to them as "her"s. Gender isn't a hard fact for Kaiju because it's irrelevant for their characters most the time (Minya, Leo, Biollante, and MUTOs being a few exceptions.)


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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

Postby LSD Jellyfish » Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:22 am

Fish Cakes wrote:I just want to be able to casually use feminine pronouns for Godzilla kaiju without being like, corrected or whatever? I still see Destroyah, Shin Godzilla, Spacegodzilla, and a few others as feminine, regardless of their canon gender so I refer to them as "her"s. Gender isn't a hard fact for Kaiju because it's irrelevant for their characters most the time (Minya, Leo, Biollante, and MUTOs being a few exceptions.)

Yeah do whatever you want. My original post which I bogged down myself, was that Kaiju’s genders, even officially, are often completely arbitrary, and may have been retconned into existence, some more than others.


Also, not sure if this is unpopular, and it’s a complete swerve, but during Godzilla Final Wars, there’s a brief moment where MonsterX becomes Quadrapedal, and grows wings, before the three heads grow and he turns into Keizer Ghidorah. I think it would have been cooler if that was the extent of his transformation. It’s strange, because I’ve found promotional material that specifically focus in on that moment, and possibly even some merch of that, rather then Keizer Ghidorah.
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_JNavs_ wrote:The MV is like cheap imitation crabmeat, it tastes good, but it isn't real, while Shin is kino peak Japanese performance.

Rodan95 wrote:The Shobijin are sat on by a fatass explorer and killed. Mothra is pissed and destroys Japan.

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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

Postby gottatalktothefake » Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:16 pm

Not sure how unpopular this is, but I feel like I enjoyed the franchise more before I found the fandom.
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