Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

[HedorahIsBestGirl]

Nothing is lost or fundamentally altered by preserving those alternate dubs so I'm not sure why people are so vehemently against their existence.

I wouldn't say I'm vehemently against the continued existence of the dubs, I just don't care if they disappear. It's not like I want to go out and burn every copy of "Gigantis the Fire-Monster"; I just don't care if Toho never condones an official Blu-Ray release of that version of "Godzilla Raids Again" in the future. I've seen several fans on these forums condemning Toho for not making the English versions of their films more readily available, and I don't see what the fuss is about. If Toho wants to only release the original versions of their films on Blu-Ray, and not dubbed or otherwise altered versions, I think that's perfectly fair.

[Tamura]

How about a thought experiment?

Suppose Toho did not accept a concept of one "original version." Suppose Toho recognized movies and entertainment in general not as products of a director or studio from a distinct time and place, but as memories of the people who saw them at various times and places, taking different, interesting forms wherever the film went. Suppose that Toho - instead of ramming Japanese theatrical versions and a select few international dubs down distributors' throats, and nothing more - decided that what is best for each region to see is the vintage version that was originally theatrically released there, and would approve of nothing less. Suppose Toho went out of their way to keep track of foreign elements and facilitate their restoration to at least the same quality standards as their own transfers of the Japanese versions. The Japanese versions, in this scenario, are still easy to acquire with subtitles through unofficial means, and aren't in dire need of restoration like all the AIP theatrical versions of the Toho films. No extra legwork is required by fans to see any version of a Toho film in decent quality... no fan has to devote a massive amount of funds towards the risky act of scanning 35mm materials in order to have an English version containing unique material shot by Toho in at least average quality.

Would the fandom consider these circumstances perfectly fair? Would the fandom continue to worship Toho's doctrine and methods of treating or mistreating their IP no matter what, based on their official ownership of these films?

[Godzilla21]

How about a thought experiment?

Suppose Toho did not accept a concept of one "original version." Suppose Toho recognized movies and entertainment in general not as products of a director or studio from a distinct time and place, but as memories of the people who saw them at various times and places, taking different, interesting forms wherever the film went. Suppose that Toho - instead of ramming Japanese theatrical versions and a select few international dubs down distributors' throats, and nothing more - decided that what is best for each region to see is the vintage version that was originally theatrically released there, and would approve of nothing less. Suppose Toho went out of their way to keep track of foreign elements and facilitate their restoration to at least the same quality standards as their own transfers of the Japanese versions. The Japanese versions, in this scenario, are still easy to acquire with subtitles through unofficial means, and aren't in dire need of restoration like all the AIP theatrical versions of the Toho films. No extra legwork is required by fans to see any version of a Toho film in decent quality... no fan has to devote a massive amount of funds towards the risky act of scanning 35mm materials in order to have an English version containing unique material shot by Toho in at least average quality.

This all sounds like a lot of work. Put out different versions of in different areas of the world based on what was released there? I think the issue would be this would be a lot of legwork to satisfy a very small group of fans. I'm pretty sure the majority of fans are pretty content with what versions they already have on DVD or Blu Ray. There are thousands of Godzilla DVDs on eBay with the old dubs if anyone wants them.

I'm sure we'd all want new versions of the old dubs. But it doesnt seem like its going to happen

[Tamura]

This all sounds like a lot of work. Put out different versions of in different areas of the world based on what was released there? I think the issue would be this would be a lot of legwork to satisfy a very small group of fans.

I'm not imagining a fantasy scenario that would satisfy myself and the surprisingly few others who want to see Godzilla vs. The Thing in better than 1998 DVD quality. If that was the point of that post, I would go farther and propose a scenario in which Toho operates fundamentally differently and doesn't block US versions from release for no apparent reason. You know, a scenario that wouldn't surprise fans of any other B-movies... complete democratization of all versions and near complete autonomy for the video label licensing the films. Revolutionary, I know.

I'm just proposing a situation in which Toho always approved the exact reverse of what they approve, and for the opposite reasons, regardless of whether the majority of online fans want it, and am wondering whether the online fanbase in general would continue passively accepting everything Toho does... whether the word "official" slapped on something would still mean anything if it didn't happen to meet the online fandom's desires. There is so much emphasis on the "official," no matter what it is, that I just want to gauge where the line in the sand is. What would it take to cause the majority here to repudiate anything Toho does, regardless of them being the legal owners? And would there still be people supporting Toho no matter what, saying things like "hey Toho is a soulless corporation, I know, but they can do whatever they want, and if you really want the Japanese version, you can always find it on Archive.org"?

[Godzilla21]

I'm just proposing a situation in which Toho approves the exact reverse of what they currently approve,

You propose the company that has been difficult to deal with for decades all of a sudden changes their tune. Just don't see it.

and for the opposite reasons, regardless of whether the majority of online fans want it, and am wondering whether the online fanbase in general would continue passively accepting everything Toho does...whether the word "official" slapped on something would still mean anything if it didn't happen to meet the online fandom's desires. There is so much emphasis on the "official," no matter what it is, that I just want to gauge where the line in the sand is. What would it take to cause the majority here to repudiate anything Toho does, regardless of them being the legal owners? And would there still be people supporting Toho no matter what, saying things like "hey Toho is a soulless corporation, I know, but they can do whatever they want, and if you really want the Japanese version, you can always find it on Archive.org"?

The issue, again, is that the majority of fans are perfectly fine with their Classic Media discs or whatever media they have for the dubs. I certainly am. Even if you got a lot of people here to reject the Criterion Collection or whatever "official" release they put out, there are still a lot of others that would buy it. And we know this based on the fact that the Criterion Collection is selling pretty well. I get that you aren't happy with Toho. You have made it clear in quite a few posts. But I just don't think that the masses really care that much. You could never get enough people to reject Toho products to make any meaningful impact.

[Terasawa]

I've seen several fans on these forums condemning Toho for not making the English versions of their films more readily available, and I don't see what the fuss is about.

Putting aside what I said on the previous page about historical context, it's mostly because some of us want those versions.

[Tamura]

All I'm saying is this: Forget the whole crummy history of Godzilla on video for a second. If Toho happened to always approve of exactly the opposite of what the majority of fans wanted, would there still be scores of people saying "just be glad it was released," "J.B.G. you can find your version on a decades old bootleg or OOP DVD/VHS"? Or would the idea of an official release not seem that appealing or justifiable to a lot of fans since only a minority would be getting what they wanted? Because this is how us interested in the alternate and obscure versions feel.

You'd think it would go without saying that alternate versions via new transfers and even US trailers make excellent bonus features. I mean, those are just things that are handed out like candy on Blu-Rays of any other B monster films of comparable vintage. It's completely taken for granted in other communities. There's never a minority that wants one thing and a majority that wants something else, with only one side getting what they wanted, because everything is comparatively democratized. Our binary doesn't exist in most other communities. While it's taken for granted that interesting, alternate versions of most other comparable films will continue to be released, it's taken for granted here that major alternate versions of our films have been treated without any dignity for years and then spontaneously vanish without any explanation. Imagine if it were the Japanese versions that were treated this way. Would there be outrage?

It is absolutely astounding how hard you have to advocate for the alternate versions not disappearing to other hardcore fans here. For me, it's just reflexive that alternate versions of my favorite films - dubbed or not, the dubbing is just one variable - are interesting, intellectually stimulating, and give this franchise more variety. Seeing the same "official" transfers first online, then on Toho's Blu-Rays, then on Media Blasters Blu-Rays, and then yet again on Criterion Blu-Rays years later gets tiresome fast... an alternate version as a bonus would alleviate the monotony, but that's too much to ask for, I guess. It's also not that hard to see that Classic Media squandered the last opportunity to present a significant number of US versions of Toho films in average quality. Every one of them has pretty glaring issues, otherwise there wouldn't be fans reconstructing basically all of the former Classic Media US versions themselves. So don't give me that "just watch the Classic Media DVD" argument.

And not all of us who wish Toho would even mildly reform their approval process prefer dubs blanketly. This isn't a stupid subs vs. dubs issue. I find that enjoying even a well-made dub takes a certain tolerance that is difficult to find here, but the dubbing is just one part of it. I prefer alternate versions at different times, depending on what interests me at each point.

Like it or not, this genre has an incredibly rich and interesting history of alteration and cultural transmission... this is an undeniable fact that one would never know if they only had the Criterion set to go by. Having options and abolishing the hegemony of the "original version" makes it a lot easier for me to rewatch these films, and would give new fans alternate experiences they wouldn't have known to look for otherwise. This is why I hate the "but it's on OOP VHS" argument. What's so wrong with giving new people the option to see something you personally don't care about, which they would otherwise not know exist and would require unnecessary effort to find? Do you actually know for a fact whether anyone would or wouldn't want to see these alternate experiences, if they were presented to them? We won't know, since Toho only approves the bare minimum that the majority of fans want, which gives the majority the ability to pontificate about how "most consumers don't care about the dubs." How convenient.

I realize more and more every day that this is a very atomized fanbase that lacks even mild solidarity. There is little to no compassion for kaiju media others like that you may not. If it becomes impossible to ever hope for the frontier missile scene from Godzilla vs. The Thing with picture quality that even matches Toho's domestic DVD transfer from the early 2000s used for Classic Media's 2006 DVD, to most people here that's just someone else's problem. So what? Just buy a DVD of it, or reconstruct it yourself. J.B.G.

[Godzilla21]

Again, the issue boils down to your last paragraph. Not enough people care. A few months ago a member here helped me discover all the dubs that were available on various media. I went to eBay (and a few other sites) and there were thousands of DVDs and Blu Rays of the old dubs and I was able to gobble them all up in a few days. So it's not like they aren't easily accessible or they are being forcefully suppressed. I just think you need to take a step back and realize most people are ok with what media they have and aren't always looking for a fancy upgrade. Hell even in 2019 DVD is STILL the top selling media format over UHD & Blu Ray. And its not even close. I think you also have to realize that many fans don't like the dubs and prefer the subtitles. I know I do. I would love the old dubs to be re released on a new pristine format, but that just doesn't seem to be in the cards. Don't really think any amount of complaining about it will change anything unfortunately.

[Terasawa]

Worth mentioning that "available on DVD" is true today but won't always be the case. Fifteen years from now, the fans that will want to watch Gigantis (for any reason, scholarly or to be entertained) will have to make do with the "best option" being a video master from the '80s encoded at the incorrect framerate (!!!) and compressed to hell on an expensive out of print DVD from 2006. Saying "it's on DVD, we're OK" is short sighted.

And that's just one example. Frankenstein Conquers the World? Good luck: the only home video release is an abridged recreation of the original U.S. release authored from inadequate elements. But don't worry, there's a muddy copy of someone's 16mm projected on a wall to represent that complete English version.

I think another point Tamura is making that's being glossed over is that, because of the unavailability of these versions, fans are getting to the point that they're arguing it's OK for their exclusion. Godzilla vs the Thing has suddenly been illegitimized because it's no longer represented in the "official" release of the film. Official /=/ superior.

[Space Hunter M]

I love how the predominant argument in places like these is that "because the majority is apathetic, YOU don't deserve to have what you want".

Try applying that to anything else in life and see how people judge your character.

[Godzilla21]

I love how the predominant argument in places like these is that "because the majority is apathetic, YOU don't deserve to have what you want".

Try applying that to anything else in life and see how people judge your character.

I can't speak for others but I defintely don't feel that way. I would love for new versions of the dubs to be released. I'm sure if Toho knew they could squeeze more money out of those versions and have collectors buy their 9th version of Mothra vs Godzilla they would. The point I'm trying to make is that some people need to take a step back and see the reality of the situation. There just aren't enough people that seem to care about the old dubs. Does that mean you don't "deserve" what you want? No. The old dubs barely get any mention on social media. Barely any mention in G-Fan. Its unfortunately a niche group within a niche fandom that really care.

Today any person with an eBay account can aquire multiple versions of the dubs on DVD & BRD if they wish. Are they from inferior elements as Terasawa pointed out? YES. But what are our options? Short of an act of God from Toho and a change of their business practices (LOL) its the best we have. Wish there were alternatives. But luckily those versions are readily available for people who want to watch these alternate versions.

[Space Hunter M]

The point I'm trying to make is that some people need to take a step back and see the reality of the situation.

That's a polite way of saying we should just despair, accept, and move on. We haven't. And we know how content people are already. No shit.

And the argument about the secondhand market is weak.

[LSD Jellyfish]

Dubs have historical relevance as you can observe and see what changes or edits dubbers make culturally and write academic papers on them. A lot of changes/emphasis reflects current American fear. I still don't entirely have this angst against Toho, but I'm now starting to see the larger issue and understand why certain people are frustrated.

I'd like to point out a lot of this isn't even particular to Toho, but rather Japanese media conglomerates in general. For example, the DVD and Film Rental Industry is still big in Japan. That isn't an issue itself, in fact I think it's a good thing. However, what happens is that due to Whale Otakus (people who have a lot of spending money and are obsessive) companies like Toho and other places can seriously overcharge on their products and goods. Blu-Rays for Godzilla films in Japan are ridiculously over-priced...

This obviously isn't about the dub release issue, but I think it's a good example of how Japanese media companies tend to be really outdated and out of the times, at least in comparison to the rest of the world, and the whole dub and sub things ties into that. It's also why I do see the "new versions" as a slightly positive thing as it just means Toho is suddenly paying more and more attention to the western market.

[Terasawa]

I don’t think it’s that they’re paying more attention, just that they have much more control over this market than they ever have.

[Godzilla21]

The point I'm trying to make is that some people need to take a step back and see the reality of the situation.

That's a polite way of saying we should just despair, accept, and move on. We haven't. And we know how content people are already. No shit.

And the argument about the secondhand market is weak.

What is your solution then to get the dubs to the relevance you (and I) think they deserve and for Toho to see the light? I'd be on board with any effort because I'd love to see the dubs preserved but not sure how there is any realistic way for it to be done

[Tamura]

I think another point Tamura is making that's being glossed over is that, because of the unavailability of these versions, fans are getting to the point that they're arguing it's OK for their exclusion. Godzilla vs the Thing has suddenly been illegitimized because it's no longer represented in the "official" release of the film. Official /=/ superior.

What I'm also saying is that "official" doesn't matter. It's a farce. I stopped buying Toho-approved North American releases ages ago when I realized all that was coming out was content I'd found online years ago with little effort. Us North Americans get shafted every time, without fail. The fandom should devalue the official and embrace the unofficial, it's where all the good stuff is... read about the theatrical, TV and video history of the blacklisted versions. Find a rare PAL pre-cert UK tape, rip it and spread it online. Send a fan restorer a copy you might not have realized was rare. Help crowdfund a 16mm or 35mm scanning project. Help out, even if it's something you don't have a personal stake in. I can't stress that this really is a now or never type of thing. It is NOT a law of nature that the US versions, the international versions, and all the worldwide variants disappear. WE can change this. Saying things like "just accept the OOP analog release" or "I don't care if they disappear" doesn't make this depressing situation any better.

I think it's disingenuous to call this angst towards Toho. I'm just applying the same standards to Toho that I would apply to any other company that has the choice to democratize media or enable it to die an undignified death, and we all know which side Toho chose. Why shouldn't Toho be criticized? I also do it because this is a Toho board. If we want to talk about a seriously awful company that is competing with Toho in a two-way race to last place and winning, let's talk about Toei. Fans have sent Toei first generation, off-air tapes of original DBZ broadcasts with superior audio to the Toei-approved releases, and Toei turned them away. How could a company be so ragingly against its own interests?

[LSD Jellyfish]

I think another point Tamura is making that's being glossed over is that, because of the unavailability of these versions, fans are getting to the point that they're arguing it's OK for their exclusion. Godzilla vs the Thing has suddenly been illegitimized because it's no longer represented in the "official" release of the film. Official /=/ superior.

What I'm also saying is that "official" doesn't matter. It's a farce. I stopped buying Toho-approved North American releases ages ago when I realized all that was coming out was content I'd found online years ago with little effort. The fandom should devalue the official and embrace the unofficial... read about the theatrical, TV and video history of the blacklisted versions. Find a rare PAL pre-cert UK tape and rip it. Send a fan restorer a copy you might not have realized was rare. Help crowdfund a 16mm or 35mm scanning project. Help out, even if it's something you don't have a personal stake in. I can't stress that this really is a now or never type of thing

A lot of "official" vs "unofficial" stems from the rather obsessive nature of collection aspects of the fans. People that have entire DVD collections. Hot take is that there are some people who are less interested in the films themselves and more in just having something to display on the shelf. And those are the people that will gladly shell out tons of money for subsequent re-releases of the same damn thing.

[Terasawa]

"Fans had to rely on badly cropped VHS and DVD bootleg copies to enjoy [Godzilla vs. Megalon]..." - Media Blasters ad copy, 2012. Disastrously de-interlaced to the point that it's unwatchable.

"Unfortunately for North American audiences, [The Return of Godzilla] has previously only been available in a highly edited version that cut over twenty minutes of original footage and effects, changed key plot points and altered the dark dramatic tone and narrative by inserting additional scenes and humor in an attempt to "Americanize" the film. But now, at long last, the acclaimed kaiju masterpiece finally hits American shores in all its uncut original glory!" - Kraken Releasing ad copy, 2016. The sole audio options are 5.1 remixes (Japanese *and* English) produced in the 21st century. Producer Matt Greenfield's claim that the video presentation would be "massaged" (from an interview with Toho Kingdom) turned out to be a lie.

In both cases, at the time of these discs' releases, there were vastly superior unofficial copies. Hell, I authored a DVD-9 of ROG that was virtually identical to the Kraken release back in 2011. The biggest difference was that mine had the theatrical audio mixes. The only things the Kraken version offered me were stereo remixes I don't need or want and another disc to toss on a shelf.

There's also the upcoming Gappa release that tries to promote its alleged superiority by comparing itself to the worst attributes of the pan and scan versions of the film, which also happen to be a longer cut of the film than the one Media Blasters will probably end up releasing.

[Tamura]

Producer Matt Greenfield's claim that the video presentation would be "massaged" (from an interview with Toho Kingdom) turned out to be a lie.

I still think that maybe they did apply fairly dramatic color improvement that got rejected by Toho. When have we ever seen a LoVision transfer altered in any significant or meaningful way? I think that's a line Toho doesn't allow any distributor to cross.

[Gigantis]

Godzilla 2000 is one of my favorite Godzilla films.