Toho Kingdom

They also describe him as being green as opposed to charcoal gray.

Added in 1 minute 23 seconds:
He was only green-ish in like what 2 movies? That's two movies out the 30 they made and they always say that he's green or mentioned as being a "fire-breathing green lizard".

GojiDude95 wrote:They also describe him as being green as opposed to charcoal gray.

Added in 1 minute 23 seconds:
He was only green-ish in like what 2 movies? That's two movies out the 30 they made and they always say that he's green or mentioned as being a "fire-breathing green lizard".

I feel like it has to do with promotional stuff having him be green and breathing fire such as the posters for King of the Monsters (1956) and King Kong vs Godzilla portraying him as a green, fire breathing monster, or certain toys which had him be green.

GojiDude95 wrote:He was only green-ish in like what 2 movies? That's two movies out the 30 they made and they always say that he's green or mentioned as being a "fire-breathing green lizard".

Don't forget about the comic books, video games, posters, cartoons, and other media that commonly depicted him as green... and breathing red fire. I feel those may've been the biggest offenders as to why Godzilla's so often associated with being a big green fire-breathing lizard.

ROMG4 wrote:

KManX89 wrote:

ZillaJr-KaijuKing wrote:Not too long ago I found out there's a misconception that Zilla Jr.'s atomic breath is just a generic fire breath rather than a nuclear breath even among people who know Godzilla's atomic breath is nuclear-powered. Come on, we have in-universe, official, and interview statements pointing to it being nuclear-powered.

Actually, it's neither: he just breathes gas at the cars and they ignited.

Also, another one that's bugged me for quite some time is the "suits vs. CGI realism" argument, specifically the one that says suits are more realistic because it actually uses a real life person/suit instead of digital effects. Props/effects used have nothing to do with realism, it's how the monsters appear on-screen. You can't honestly tell me this:



looks more realistic than this:



One of these can at least kinda pass for a real life Godzilla, on what planet does a rubber suit look remotely real? I get that it was a product of technical limitations, but c'm'on now.

(Yes, I realize I'm a little late to the party on this.)

People tend to prefer Practical Effects because it's actually there the material is genuinely reacting to the light levels where it is at, it's genuinely reacting and being effected to the environment it's in, and it often helps actors react to it because it's actually there and not say a cardboard stand in

And so on and so forth

But I genuinely have to question your examples. Why would you use a picture from a film with a budget of less then $5-Million and incredibly low production quality to the rest of it's series and compare it to a film made with a budget of 170$-Million and made over a decade later

A better example would be these
Animatronic:




CGI:


And just for fun the Wolfman from 2010


Either way Production values are always going to change depending on the director, the studio, the people, and pretty much everything. I'd like to see anyone say the Thing from 1986 doesn't look awesome or see anyone say the Mosasaur from Jurassic World doesn't look good

At the end of the day both are a means to a end. Both are tools in order to make the film's characters look alive and real, I consider both tools to be equal in general

And either way I don't much mind at all which effect is used generally. But of course some people have this negativity bias thing where they gotta be mad at something permanently

So people with a Anti-CGI bias will always see flaws in CGI and never believe the CGI is real and likewise with Anti-Practical Effects people

I wonder whatever happened to just watching the story and enjoying it

Leave the debating to the mediocre film critics

Like I said, it's not the props/effects used, it's how they appear on-screen. The live action Attack on Titan film uses suits, but it actually looks believable (I understand "believable" is a strong word for giant monster flicks) because they use a good mix of suitimation and CGI for the kaiju.



Compare that to the Toho Godzilla films, which use little-to-no CGI/effects touchup for the suits and it's very "noticeable".



Yes, I know Toho isn't very good at using CGI, hence suits might actually be preferable for those films, but leave that to the Japanese. Let the American/Legendary flicks bask bask in their big-budget CGI gloriness (there were a surprising number of Godzilla fans who wanted the 2014 movie to use suits).

KManX89 wrote:

ROMG4 wrote:

KManX89 wrote:
Actually, it's neither: he just breathes gas at the cars and they ignited.

Also, another one that's bugged me for quite some time is the "suits vs. CGI realism" argument, specifically the one that says suits are more realistic because it actually uses a real life person/suit instead of digital effects. Props/effects used have nothing to do with realism, it's how the monsters appear on-screen. You can't honestly tell me this:



looks more realistic than this:



One of these can at least kinda pass for a real life Godzilla, on what planet does a rubber suit look remotely real? I get that it was a product of technical limitations, but c'm'on now.

(Yes, I realize I'm a little late to the party on this.)

People tend to prefer Practical Effects because it's actually there the material is genuinely reacting to the light levels where it is at, it's genuinely reacting and being effected to the environment it's in, and it often helps actors react to it because it's actually there and not say a cardboard stand in

And so on and so forth

But I genuinely have to question your examples. Why would you use a picture from a film with a budget of less then $5-Million and incredibly low production quality to the rest of it's series and compare it to a film made with a budget of 170$-Million and made over a decade later

A better example would be these
Animatronic:




CGI:


And just for fun the Wolfman from 2010


Either way Production values are always going to change depending on the director, the studio, the people, and pretty much everything. I'd like to see anyone say the Thing from 1986 doesn't look awesome or see anyone say the Mosasaur from Jurassic World doesn't look good

At the end of the day both are a means to a end. Both are tools in order to make the film's characters look alive and real, I consider both tools to be equal in general

And either way I don't much mind at all which effect is used generally. But of course some people have this negativity bias thing where they gotta be mad at something permanently

So people with a Anti-CGI bias will always see flaws in CGI and never believe the CGI is real and likewise with Anti-Practical Effects people

I wonder whatever happened to just watching the story and enjoying it

Leave the debating to the mediocre film critics

Like I said, it's not the props/effects used, it's how they appear on-screen. The live action Attack on Titan film uses suits, but it actually looks believable (I understand "believable" is a strong word for giant monster flicks) because they use a good mix of suitimation and CGI for the kaiju.



Compare that to the Toho Godzilla films, which use little-to-no CGI/effects touchup for the suits and it's very "noticeable".



Yes, I know Toho isn't very good at using CGI, hence suits might actually be preferable for those films, but leave that to the Japanese. Let the American/Legendary flicks bask bask in their big-budget CGI gloriness (there were a surprising number of Godzilla fans who wanted the 2014 movie to use suits).

I think you're missing his point though, because again you're comparing a 2015 film to a 1991 film in your examples.

That and frankly I think the Titans in Attack on Titan look hilariously out of place and weird. Not convincing at all, they were some of the cheesiest, campiest attempts at movie monsters I've seen. However, there's no way else they could have done it that would have made it more convincing for me.

CGI vs. Practical is a pointless argument because it's entirely subjective to time, money, who's involved, how it's executed, etc.

I've never once ever had a problem with the suits in Godzilla films, and not once did I ever "notice" any lack of realism. I have to agree with ROMG that whatever happened to just enjoying the movie for what it's worth and that's that?

Also, I don't think it's that Toho "isn't very good at using CGI", I think it's Japan isn't as wasteful with film budgets as Americans are. Compare Shin's budget with Godzilla 2014's. Shin Gojira had a budget of 15 million USD, while Godzilla 2014 had a budget of 160 million dollars. That's a massive difference. They just don't invest the money into CGI like we do. It's really that simple.

This isn't a misconception but my pet peeve is that people saya to me "You mean the movies where the words don't match the lips!"--EXTREMELY annoying! That's all these folks see. They don't see the hard work and ingenuity that went into these films. They don't know or don't care that those movies are basically decent family-friendly entertainment, though the language in some of the Hong Kong dubs isn't good. Regarding misconceptions/false reports, I posted in another thread that the first Mechagodzilla film actually played in America in late 1976 rather than in March of 1977, as is commonly reported.

Regarding the latter, Ron, I don’t believe any documentation has turned up yet that proves Bionic Monster played in 1976. Memories of course are far less accurate in any historical account than documented proof. Though that’s not to say you’re wrong, either. As far as I’m concerned, officially, it can’t be viewed that the movie was in release in 1976 until more evidence turns up.

1. Koichi Kawakita quit drinking after Godzilla vs. Mothra. So really, he only had the problem during Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah and Godzilla vs. Mothra, and while Godzilla vs. Mothra has some effect shots that don't look the absolute best, Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah's special effects are superb and won him an award. So his drinking problem didn't affect any of the Heisei special effects, and if they did, it was very minor. They certainly didn't at all effect Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla II, Godzilla vs. SpaceGodzilla, or Godzilla vs. Destoroyah. People, like with everything about celebrities nowadays, over exaggerated it and made it seem like it was a bigger problem then it actually was. Overall, I think Kawakita was an excellent special effects director. Besides, not like Tsuburaya didn't have flaws (Manda's execution is poor, King Kong's suit looks like it was picked up from the side of the street, Varan in Destroy All Monsters is also executed poorly and he looks really fake, the Godzilla and Rodan puppets in Ghidorah, the Three Headed Monster are very shoddy in execution), but he is still regarded as a great special effects director. Not to mention the godawful shots of Gigan and King Ghidorah flying in Godzilla vs. Gigan, especially around the Godzilla Tower (I know that wasn't done by Tsuburaya, but it proves my point that the Showa special effects directors were nowhere near perfect).

2. At the end of Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla II, when the Mechagodzilla pilots say "Reptiles or humankind, we all fight to protect our offspring", this wasn't bad screenwriting (or them randomly changing their minds). It was them realizing, through seeing Godzilla and Baby Godzilla's interaction and bond (which literally just happened before it cuts to them; the music from the scene is even finishing when they are saying that), that Godzilla wasn't much different from humans. Before, they believed he was an evil beast that was only capable of destruction and death and no compassion. That's why they tried to kill him. But his interaction with Baby proved them wrong. It isn't bad screenwriting, it's brilliant. Same with the "shades of grey" aspect.

I'll take a great quote from a fellow user King of the Monsters on the thread "Best Heisei Godzilla Film":

There's plenty of monster action, and the monsters have some surprising character and motivation. It's this film that really makes you start sympathizing with Godzilla (vs. King Ghidorah had hints of this, but this film completes it) and it actually creates a conflict in the mind of the viewer. Are we supposed to root for Mechagodzilla, since it's what's defending humanity, or should we root for Godzilla, because he's only trying to find companionship with another member of his kind? The film starts out orienting the audience on the side of G-Force, but by the end we're all supposed to be satisfied that Godzilla has triumphed. Lots of people say this is a flaw with the film, but I think it's one of its strongest and most unique aspects.

The reason why you're supposed to be satisfied that Godzilla triumphed is because throughout the film, because of Baby Godzilla and his motivation to find and protect the infant, he becomes very sympathetic and you empathize with him. It's also brilliant.

3. There is physical combat in the Heisei films. Godzilla vs. Biollante (both forms), Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah, Godzilla vs. the two Larva Moths (in fact, Godzilla punches and grapples a lot in Godzilla vs. Mothra), Godzilla vs. Rodan, Fire Rodan vs. Mechagodzilla, Godzilla's second fight with Mechagodzilla, Godzilla Junior vs. Destoroyah, and Godzilla vs. Destoroyah have plenty of physical combat, and when Godzilla fights the two Imago moths and SpaceGodzilla, there's a couple physical blows here and there. So stop spreading this myth that Heisei was nothing but beams and actually watch the fights.

Here are some of the ones I mentioned:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmYvOtrDbYM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t26--3F3OTQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHwZQDXH82U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVJLyu3epIA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB-69-N2gHo

KManX89 wrote:Compare that to the Toho Godzilla films, which use little-to-no CGI/effects touchup for the suits and it's very "noticeable".

I absolutely love the Heisei Godzilla head animatronic. It looks very good and natural, and it allows Godzilla to be expressive and emotional. It's definitely one of Koichi Kawakita's greatest works.

Terasawa, I can't back up my claim with proof but I clearly remember when I saw the film because it was the highlight of the year for me. Because of money and transportation issues, trips to the cinema were few and far between so a big screen movie was a treat. If you don't believe me, though, that's fine.

Added in 25 minutes 33 seconds:
P.S. In the grand scheme of things, it's actually a trivial issue. As an avid fan for over 40 years, I get tired of seeing error perpetuated but error is not as bad as the suckey attitudes I described in my previous post.

Not trying to argue with you or even necessarily cast doubt on when you say you saw the film. In fact I can believe that that film was in release in ‘76 just because of the nature of Cinema Shares’ and Downtown Distribution’s operations.

All I’m saying is that there needs to be more tangible evidence for that claim to go down in the history books.

G&G-Fan wrote:2. At the end of Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla II, when the Mechagodzilla pilots say "Reptiles or humankind, we all fight to protect our offspring", this wasn't bad screenwriting (or them randomly changing their minds). It was them realizing, through seeing Godzilla and Baby Godzilla's interaction and bond (which literally just happened before it cuts to them; the music from the scene is even finishing when they are saying that), that Godzilla wasn't much different from humans. Before, they believed he was an evil beast that was only capable of destruction and death and no compassion. That's why they tried to kill him. But his interaction with Baby proved them wrong. It isn't bad screenwriting, it's brilliant. Same with the "shades of grey" aspect.

The problem people have with that scene isn't thinking that it lacks thematic context; it's that it is such a literal statement of the theme. And, of course, the bigger problem line is the equally over-explicit, clunky, "Yeah, life, against artificial life."

G&G-Fan wrote:1. Koichi Kawakita quit drinking after Godzilla vs. Mothra. So really, he only had the problem during Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah and Godzilla vs. Mothra, and while Godzilla vs. Mothra has some effect shots that don't look the absolute best, Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah's special effects are superb and won him an award. So his drinking problem didn't affect any of the Heisei special effects, and if they did, it was very minor. They certainly didn't at all effect Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla II, Godzilla vs. SpaceGodzilla, or Godzilla vs. Destoroyah. People, like with everything about celebrities nowadays, over exaggerated it and made it seem like it was a bigger problem then it actually was. Overall, I think Kawakita was an excellent special effects director. Besides, not like Tsuburaya didn't have flaws (Manda's execution is poor, King Kong's suit looks like it was picked up from the side of the street, Varan in Destroy All Monsters is also executed poorly and he looks really fake, the Godzilla and Rodan puppets in Ghidorah, the Three Headed Monster are very shoddy in execution), but he is still regarded as a great special effects director. Not to mention the godawful shots of Gigan and King Ghidorah flying in Godzilla vs. Gigan, especially around the Godzilla Tower (I know that wasn't done by Tsuburaya, but it proves my point that the Showa special effects directors were nowhere near perfect).

I don't know the full extent of Kawakita's alleged alcoholism, but I do agree it's ultimately none of our business. But I have heard rumors that he simply didn't get along with Okawara too well, so that could explain his lesser work for his movies (I guess sans MGII which has pretty consistent effects overall).

And of course there are numerous shots/sequences/suits in the classic films that don't work well. But at the same time, I can name just as many that do or at the very least, are cleverly done/have heart put into them. I can't really say the same for most of the Heisei films' effects.

As for King Ghidorah's effects...superb definitely isn't the word I'd use, though I guess they are among Kawakita's better. But the shots of Ghidorah flying are comparable to the aforementioned shots of him and Gigan and in Godzilla vs. Gigan, and M11 running has got to be one of the most embarrassing things I've ever seen.

MaxRebo320 wrote:And of course there are numerous shots/sequences/suits in the classic films that don't work well. But at the same time, I can name just as many that do or at the very least, are cleverly done/have heart put into them. I can't really say the same for most of the Heisei films' effects.

Biollante moving across the ground toward Godzilla. Godzilla approaching the island in vs. SpaceGodzilla. The fall into the volcano in Return of Godzilla. The suits for Heisei Godzilla himself, Battra, Biollante. Numerous sequences, especially from RoG and Biollante.

There is some incredible care and effort put into the showa films (especially the earlier ones), and some that are shoddy. The exact same is true of Heisei. It has its shots that don't work well... but it has its lovingly-crafted and exceptionally well-done shots/sequences/suits as well. Heck, even Millenium does, even if they tend to be most concentrated in G2000 and GMK.

Godzilla vs Biollante is leagues ahead of it's successor's, drinking problems or not. I absolutely love the cinematography in the effects scenes, the camera work and lighting really sells the size of the monsters. Not to mention little touches, like the camera rising out of the water from Godzilla's POV, and just it's unsteadiness in general. Something definitely happened with Kawakita, because I don't think anything after Gunhed or Biollante comes close to them.

Mr_Goji_and_Watch wrote:Godzilla vs Biollante is leagues ahead of it's successor's, drinking problems or not. I absolutely love the cinematography in the effects scenes, the camera work and lighting really sells the size of the monsters. Not to mention little touches, like the camera rising out of the water from Godzilla's POV, and just it's unsteadiness in general. Something definitely happened with Kawakita, because I don't think anything after Gunhed or Biollante comes close to them.

Didn't he suffer from depression of some kind after putting his heart and soul into Bye-Bye Jupiter & Gunhed, but both flopping financially and critically?

Mr_Goji_and_Watch wrote:Godzilla vs Biollante is leagues ahead of it's successor's, drinking problems or not. I absolutely love the cinematography in the effects scenes, the camera work and lighting really sells the size of the monsters. Not to mention little touches, like the camera rising out of the water from Godzilla's POV, and just it's unsteadiness in general. Something definitely happened with Kawakita, because I don't think anything after Gunhed or Biollante comes close to them.

Some of the members here managed to interview Robert Scott Field about 3 years ago, Robert mentioned how Kawakita told him how he felt so much responsibility for Godzilla vs. Biollante's under-performance that he contemplated suicide. But Omori and the others got together with him and basically said "look, we'll just try again to make another really good movie," at the time they were considering reviving Mothra (presumably Mothra vs. Bagan) before later settling with Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah.

MaxRebo320 wrote:I don't know the full extent of Kawakita's alleged alcoholism, but I do agree it's ultimately none of our business. But I have heard rumors that he simply didn't get along with Okawara too well, so that could explain his lesser work for his movies (I guess sans MGII which has pretty consistent effects overall).

And of course there are numerous shots/sequences/suits in the classic films that don't work well. But at the same time, I can name just as many that do or at the very least, are cleverly done/have heart put into them. I can't really say the same for most of the Heisei films' effects.

As for King Ghidorah's effects...superb definitely isn't the word I'd use, though I guess they are among Kawakita's better. But the shots of Ghidorah flying are comparable to the aforementioned shots of him and Gigan and in Godzilla vs. Gigan, and M11 running has got to be one of the most embarrassing things I've ever seen.

Kawakita had no problem with Okawara:
http://www.davmil.org/www.kaijuconversa ... awakit.htm

"Mr. Okawara, on the other hand, is more of a craftsman. He knows how to make films."

I also agree with what Zarm said about some really great special effects scenes in the Heisei era, and I have a few more: Godzilla’s resurrection and destroying Super Mechagodzilla, Godzilla rising from Mt. Fuji, Burning Godzilla as a whole, Godzilla’s death, Destoroyah’s final form, the fish being dissolved by the tiny Destoroyah’s, and all scenes with Godzilla and Baby Godzilla’s face animatronics (especially their scene together).

GigaBowserG wrote:
Some of the members here managed to interview Robert Scott Field about 3 years ago, Robert mentioned how Kawakita told him how he felt so much responsibility for Godzilla vs. Biollante's under-performance that he contemplated suicide. But Omori and the others got together with him and basically said "look, we'll just try again to make another really good movie," at the time they were considering reviving Mothra (presumably Mothra vs. Bagan) before later settling with Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah.

Damn, poor guy. At least he saw Godzilla vs Biollante become a fan favorite.

It's no big deal, Terasawa. I hope I didn't sound offended. I don't know from where the March 1977 date originated. Maybe that was when it was retitled GODZILLA VS. THE COSMIC MONSTER. I wasn't aware of the retitling until sometime in 1977 when someone wrote a disparaging letter to Famous Monsters magazine that mentioned the title and gave a brief description of the film. Even if I could prove it, it's not going to affect the price of gasoline. It all reminds me of a story about the late Spanish horror star, Paul Naschy, who supposedly did a movie in Paris in 1968 titled LAS NOCHES DEL HOMBRE LOBO. This film is shrouded in mystery as there is no official record of its' release in either Spain or France. The film wasn't even registered with the French film commission, which is a legal requirement, but Naschy (who usually wrote the scripts for his movies and under his real name, Jacinto Molina) always maintained that he wrote the script and starred in the movie.

G&G-Fan wrote: Kawakita had no problem with Okawara:
http://www.davmil.org/www.kaijuconversa ... awakit.htm

"Mr. Okawara, on the other hand, is more of a craftsman. He knows how to make films."

Well, that doesn't necessarily mean the two didn't have their personal differences, just that Kawakita had respect for him as a filmmaker. But considering I don't even remember where I heard the rumor of the two not getting along from, who knows. Regardless, I think its safe to say, even if you like the movies, that his work in Okawara's films really pales in comparison to the work he did for Omori. Kawakita himself actually requested they show Destoryah (One of his lessar works) over Biollante (Easily his best FX job) at G-Fest 2014 though, for whatever reason.