General Opinions Thread

[Rodan]

Conversation seems a little stagnant. I don't want this to overlap with the "Confessions" thread, but a place to air general opinions on the Godzilla franchise that maybe don't warrant their own threads (yet) seems cool. Just getting lists can be a bit boring, so hopefully there's some quoting and back-and-forth too -- you can find members who agree with you, disagree, etc., and maybe something gets enough conversation to spin into its own topic.

I'll start:

-Military protagonists (JSDF, anti-Godzilla teams, etc.), wholly an invention of the post-Showa films, do not work within the storytelling of the series, or haven't so far. I believe this is because they allow the writers to avoid giving them conflicts and motivations outside of defeating Godzilla, already a problem for the series and genre, which allows their characterization to peter in the climax and to become largely expository vehicles. Coincidentally, the best post-Showa films have avoided using them or mixed them into a larger cast. As have the modern Gamera films.

-The idea of a man-made Mechagodzilla is absolutely ridiculous, even for the genre. The alien Showa version is the only one with a reason for looking like Godzilla.

[PRIMEVAL]

I wholeheartedly agree with Mechagodzilla. While I like Kiryu and find that to be an interesting Kaiju character, and more unique than MG"2", the best and most feasible Mechagodzilla is the original alien one.

[Tyrant_Lizard_King]

Oh I agree with Rodan about the military protagonists angle. Its why G14 and the Tezuka films just don't work for me. Doesn't help military leads are usually exceptionally bland. Like he said it works better to have them working as part of a larger and more diverse cast of characters. Its the approach most the Showa films took and some standout entries in the Heisei and Millennium films as well. I really like the largely political angle taken by Return of Godzilla and the everyday working man angle taken by Godzilla Raids Again. Two films who's themes I would love to see return someday. The political angle being something we may get from ShinGoji judging by the route Anno seem to be going in.

[JAGzilla]

-The idea of a man-made Mechagodzilla is absolutely ridiculous, even for the genre. The alien Showa version is the only one with a reason for looking like Godzilla.

You say this like there's something wrong with 'absolutely ridiculous'. And why is a man-made (as opposed to alien gorilla-made) dinosaur robot any harder to swallow than a three-headed, lightning-breathing space dragon? Or a moth-shaped peace goddess that communicates with humanity through fairies? Or a humanoid, napalm-spitting cockroach with drills for arms? Face it, this genre is made of 'absolutely ridiculous'.

I'll grant that it depends on which specific continuity we're talking about, I guess. A man-made Mechagodzilla fits right in with all the bizarre things we got in the Heisei or Millennium movies, but would feel out of place in a world that likes to pretend it's more grounded in reality, like the Legendary-verse. But in general? Nah, I don't see much of a problem.

[Pkmatrix]

You say this like there's something wrong with 'absolutely ridiculous'. And why is a man-made (as opposed to alien gorilla-made) dinosaur robot any harder to swallow than a three-headed, lightning-breathing space dragon? Or a moth-shaped peace goddess that communicates with humanity through fairies? Or a humanoid, napalm-spitting cockroach with drills for arms? Face it, this genre is made of 'absolutely ridiculous'.

I'll grant that it depends on which specific continuity we're talking about, I guess. A man-made Mechagodzilla fits right in with all the bizarre things we got in the Heisei or Millennium movies, but would feel out of place in a world that likes to pretend it's more grounded in reality, like the Legendary-verse. But in general? Nah, I don't see much of a problem.

No, I see Rodan's point.

While the genre is chock full of ridiculous and fantastic stuff, it was always contrasted with an otherwise normal-seeming world where the human characters lived. That, for me, is part of the genre's appeal: believable people in what appears to be the real world, responding to and dealing with the fantastic, the ridiculous, the unbelievable, and the impossible as rationally as they can manage. Man-Made Mechagodzilla and other Giant Robots breaks the illusion that this is taking place in the real world because it's not really a believable response by real people, it's a fantastic response that could only be done by people in a fantastic world, so I can understand why some may not like it much. It's a couple steps too far from the genre's norm (or, what had been the genre's norm pre-1990s).

[JAGzilla]

Okay, that's fair. I did consider that aspect of it, but then it makes sense for people living in a real world that's been made fantastic by the presence of unstoppable god-animals to respond to them in fantastic ways, especially after watching conventional weapons and methods fail over and over again. Disregarding concerns like cost and physics (because the movies usually ignore the impact of kaiju on the economy anyway, and if the monsters can ignore physics in these worlds, why can't we?), a giant mech makes some sense as an anti-kaiju weapon. Reasons:

- Durability, first and foremost. Everybody always says "why not just mount the laser cannons on tanks or planes?", but the answer to that is that conventional vehicles can't handle retaliation. They might get off a shot or two, but they're screwed as soon as Godzilla returns fire. A heavily-armored mech can both dish out and take damage, increasing the odds that it survives long enough to win.

- Line of sight. Fighting a kaiju in an urban environment could be difficult for conventional ground vehicles, with buildings getting between them and the kaiju. A mech that can see over most buildings won't have that issue.

- Visibility to kaiju. A kaiju may simply ignore tiny tanks, walk right by them and continue rampaging. But something as large as the kaiju, especially if it looks like a kaiju, is guaranteed to get the kaiju's attention, ensuring that the mech actually has a chance to put its weapons to use. The diversion might also buy time for civilians to be evacuated.

And in the Heisei series' defense, Mechagodzilla and MOGUERA were built using reverse-engineered technology from 300 years in the future as an example. So it's not like they were built from scratch with existing technology.

But all this aside, the illusion of reality is still going to be broken. And if that's not what you want from a kaiju movie, then I see why you'd have a problem. For me, though, I like that the genre takes both routes. We have some movies that are semi-grounded in reality, and some that aren't. Variety helps keep the genre from getting too repetitive.

[Rodan]

Okay, that's fair. I did consider that aspect of it, but then it makes sense for people living in a real world that's been made fantastic by the presence of unstoppable god-animals to respond to them in fantastic ways, especially after watching conventional weapons and methods fail over and over again.

Yeah, there are levels of disbelief. That's why, even though this is a fantasy world of giant monsters, two-foot-tall-women and magic moths, people can look at something like Godzilla flying in vs. Hedorah and still instantly call it weird and silly. "It's fantasy, therefore X can happen" is a silly argument. We all recognize that even imaginary settings adhere to certain rules they establish; otherwise everything but realistic fiction would fall apart.

In the case of the Heisei series, and to a lesser extent the Kiryu films, the rules they establish is that, except for the presence of giant monsters and some super-science, these are going to be realistic worlds with characters who respond as you'd expect real people to. Creating a Godzilla-shaped robot instead of ... just any other super weapon or giant robot, is, in those worlds, absolutely bonkers. They gave it a mouth! Why?

And don't give me the Godzilla skeleton thing, because what the f*ck ever. The DNA computer plot is at least in there to slightly more justify it than the '93 version.

But really, unless there's a specific intent to masquerade as Godzilla, designing a robot in his image is some pretty strange stuff.

[szmigiel]

Creating a Godzilla-shaped robot instead of ... just any other super weapon or giant robot, is, in those worlds, absolutely bonkers. They gave it a mouth! Why?

Not only that but it roars too.

[Spuro]

An opinion thread, huh? Well brace yourselves, everyone, because this is a very, very controversial opinion of mine.

- Godzilla vs King Ghidorah is the worst film in the Heisei Series.




On less controversial terms...

- I think Godzilla vs Hedorah, though it has good intentions, muddles its message a bit. It's a bit too weird for its own good, and its tone is all over the place, which makes it hard for the movie's message to make an impact.

- Terror of Mechagodzilla is superior to Godzilla vs Mechagodzilla. On that note, I'd actually consider it to be the best Mechagodzilla movie of all, from a critical standpoint. Pity the romance wasn't fleshed out a bit more, though... kinda comes out of nowhere.

[JAGzilla]

Creating a Godzilla-shaped robot instead of ... just any other super weapon or giant robot, is, in those worlds, absolutely bonkers. They gave it a mouth! Why?

And don't give me the Godzilla skeleton thing, because what the f*ck ever. The DNA compute plot is at least in there to slightly more justify it than the '93 version.

But really, unless there's a specific intent to masquerade as Godzilla, designing a robot in his image is some pretty strange stuff.

Well... okay, I can't immediately come up with a good reason to make it look like Godzilla. Nothing that seems worth the extra billions of dollars and months of engineering work that would go into shaping a simpler, 'generic' mech like a dinosaur. But for the sake of the argument... like I said before, it would certainly grab Godzilla's attention. There's no way he's going to ignore a metallic dinosaur as large as he is, especially when it can even roar at him.

Or, y'know, maybe it's just an aesthetic thing? Fighter pilots paint shark faces on the noses of their planes to make them look cooler and more intimidating; maybe dinosaur-shaped mechs are a really extreme evolution of that?

Dumb, I know, but's all I have.

[skuzzy-punk-kid]

Creating a Godzilla-shaped robot instead of ... just any other super weapon or giant robot, is, in those worlds, absolutely bonkers. They gave it a mouth! Why?

And don't give me the Godzilla skeleton thing, because what the f*ck ever. The DNA compute plot is at least in there to slightly more justify it than the '93 version.

But really, unless there's a specific intent to masquerade as Godzilla, designing a robot in his image is some pretty strange stuff.

Well... okay, I can't immediately come up with a good reason to make it look like Godzilla. Nothing that seems worth the extra billions of dollars and months of engineering work that would go into shaping a simpler, 'generic' mech like a dinosaur. But for the sake of the argument... like I said before, it would certainly grab Godzilla's attention. There's no way he's going to ignore a metallic dinosaur as large as he is, especially when it can even roar at him.

Or, y'know, maybe it's just an aesthetic thing? Fighter pilots paint shark faces on the noses of their planes to make them look cooler and more intimidating; maybe dinosaur-shaped mechs are a really extreme evolution of that?

Dumb, I know, but's all I have.

I think you're on to something. Why give it a mouth? Well, if something is going to look like a threat to a kaiju, giving it a mouth would be close to giving it the appearance of a living organism. Perhaps to Godzilla's perspective, a MechaGodzilla is simply another kaiju that just happens to be metallic; it doesn't dawn on Godzilla that the metal construct he was battling was mostly synthetic until it starts failing when a battle drags on for too long (if he even realizes that at all).

[Tohosaurus]

The idea of giant mechs such as Mechagodzilla and Moguera as 20th or early 21st century constructs may be riduclous, but that never really bothered me. The films they appear in are very imaginary and fantastic in their concepts, so it is generally fitting. It's similar to Iron Man's LA films. Sure, the Iron Man suit and Jarvis AI are simply not possible in the modern world, but it doesn't really matter because the MCU is basically a parallel fantasy universe to our real world anyway. Having a giant mech in Peter Jackson's King Kong universe or the Cloverfield "universe" makes less sense because those are supposed to be very grounded universes wherein the monsters are the only blatantly sci-fi element of the world.

The Heisei world was very imaginary already. We'd had a giant plant with a human spirit in it, time-traveling, Cosmos people with a giant super-powered moth and an Earth-generated counterpart, etc. Having reverse engineered technology to make a mech was suitably fitting. Similarly, the Kiryu universe (prior to the events of the first Kiryu movie) had already seen a Frankenstein-origin Gargantua, alien-controlled Earth monsters expanded to enormous proportions (Yog), maser weaponry, etc. Kiryu as biorobot was at the far side of reality, but within that universe it wasn't all that out there. And the fact that they went with remote control, charging, and so on does imply to me that they wanted to re-install some semblance of realism. An alien mech or robot as with the original Moguera and Mechagodzilla are much more feasible based on available technology and skill, but in their own right are kind of crazy - especially an alien mech meant to look like an Earth monster. All of these are for sheer enjoyment and entertainment, and in that regard they are hugely effective for me personally. It's supposed to be fun.

[KaijuFiend]

King Kong vs Godzilla is a big let-down. For something as monumental as America's most popular monster squaring off against Japan's most popular monster, it doesn't feel right to treat it as a full-on comedy. The Kong and Godzilla suits look awful, too. Which is why I am fully in favor of another KKvsG being made, as the original just didn't give the concept its due.

[Rody]

I think the concept of a man-made Mechagodzilla could be interesting, if taken in the right direction. It could even be downright controversial: how would the public react to mankind's greatest weapon being designed in the image of their worst enemy? I don't really know, but I bet a good writer could get pretty interesting material out of that.
I think the Kiryu films could have gone in a direction similar to that; but unfortunately chose not to (too bad, I really liked the berserk scene).

I'd also agree that Terror of Mechagodzilla is the best MG film, although the first is still my favorite. However, considering the Heisei and Millennium films, ToM doesn't have very strong competition anyway.

[Legion1979]

The Kong and Godzilla suits look awful, too.

Kong I'll give you but...Godzilla?

Seriously, people need to start explaining themselves if they're going to make comments like that.

[KaijuFiend]

Kong I'll give you but...Godzilla?

Seriously, people need to start explaining themselves if they're going to make comments like that.

The only things I really like about the 62 suit are the spines and the face looks good from the side. But then the face looks completely goofy from the front, the top of the head has this weird squished triangular shape to it that I don't like, the proportions on the body feel bloated and off.

This is an opinions thread, I figured it went without saying that in my opinion the 62 suit looks awful. Not everyone loves the near-universally praised design. I'm one of the few who don't like it.

[Breakdown]

And don't give me the Godzilla skeleton thing, because what the f*ck ever. The DNA computer plot is at least in there to slightly more justify it than the '93 version.

...I don't follow. What exactly is wrong with the skeleton thing? If I was entertaining the idea of building a giant robot Godzilla, we know Godzilla's body is incredibly durable therefor the bones would be ideal framework given that no known metals could do the same. The entire concept behind Kiryu was to build a cyborg Godzilla; an exact clone of the most powerful monster on Earth to defend humanity. What better way to beat your enemy than to essentially have a technologically enhanced clone of him? Yeah a man-made Mechagodzilla would never fly in the real-world, but at least Kiryu's origin and construction is much more plausible than Heisei Mechagodzilla's which involved salvaging technology from the future, then somehow creating a metal strong enough to support it all while being powered by a magical nuclear reactor and laser-absorbing diamonds.

[Kaiser]

Kong I'll give you but...Godzilla?

Seriously, people need to start explaining themselves if they're going to make comments like that.

The only things I really like about the 62 suit are the spines and the face looks good from the side. But then the face looks completely goofy from the front, the top of the head has this weird squished triangular shape to it that I don't like, the proportions on the body feel bloated and off.

This is an opinions thread, I figured it went without saying that in my opinion the 62 suit looks awful. Not everyone loves the near-universally praised design. I'm one of the few who don't like it.

Yeah, I don't care much for Kingoji either. The head just looks sort of goofy especially from the front. It seems more generic T-Rex than Godzilla to me.

Also, I feel that the Kiryu origin makes sense within the plausibility of the series. If we're going to have psychics, black hole guns, moth deities and space dragons, it doesn't really stretch my suspension of disbelief if scientists decide to use the original Godzilla's bones as a framework to build a cyborg to stop him. If we apply the Square Cube Law to Kiryu, we'd have to apply it to every other Kaiju who theoretically shouldn't even be able to move. The basic premise of the series is "radiation makes you giant" which is just as outlandish as a giant robot. Then again, I take particular umbridge with the Black Hole Gun from Megaguirus, so maybe things from movies you like just don't annoy you as much as things from movies you dislike.

[Godzillian]

Not my opinion but talked to another Godzilla fan on fb and he told me he hated the idea of aliens in the Godzilla franchise and that adding them really took away from it.

[Legion1979]

Well that fan is crazy.