Godzilla's Most Formidable Foe?

[tymon]

Gotta throw in my vote for Mechagodzilla (74/75/93). MG is always a BAMF (that little wuss Kiryu, on the other hand)...

MechaGodzilla. In both the Showa and Heisei series, MechaGodzilla was one of the only monsters to ever get Godzilla inches from death. The only way Godzilla ever won against was because of deus ex machina, another monster, or something beyond his control. As in, there's really no way Godzilla can beat MechaGodzilla in straight up one-on-one fight. Not to mention, MechaGodzilla is just a big insult to Godzilla: Something far more powerful than in him, made in his image. I'd be pissed off too if someone made a robot-clone of me that was superior in nearly every way.

Well put.

[kaiju115]

For Showa: King Ghidorah, Hedorah, & Mechagodzilla.

For Heisei: Mechagodzilla, Destoroyah.

For Millennium: Kiryu, Kaiser Ghidorah.

[Spuro]

Showa: Hedorah probably. King Ghidorah and Mechagodzilla would take second place.

Heisei: Destoroyah. Runner ups are MG2 and SG, although Biollante also could be a very dangerous foe indeed if the enemy lacks regeneration and a weapon powerful enough to overcome her own.

Millennium: Megaguirus. While Kiryu and Godzilla seemed to be even in their battle, Megaguirus was destroying Godzilla with the help of her speed. Godzilla had to fight intelligently in this one, possibly more than any other foe.

Mankind id a good answer, but I have a little trouble seeing us as the most formidable foe if we can't hurt Godzilla without the help of sci-fi technology. We're the most persistent and recurring, yes, but not the most dangerous.

[Plexton]

Showa Series: Hedorah, easily

Heisei Series: Destoroyah or Super MechaGodzilla, both came pretty close to killing him, and would have defeated him without outside interference.

Millennium Series: Probably Kiryu

I agree with your choices! I also like What Tomzilla said about the rivalry between Mankind and Godzilla; that would be an interesting theme to explore for a film.

[Shadow]

Showa: Mechagodzilla and Hedorah

Heisei: Destoroyah and Super Mechagodzilla

Millennium: Kiryu and Kaiser Ghidorah

[Bentley]

Gigan!!

Just kidding, but I wanted to throw this guy a bone.

[locomike65]

Mothra has the most victories over Godzilla actually. There was some "lost footage" on you tube until recently of some extra footage from the original fight from the 1964 movie that was pretty cool. love to get my hands on it.

[Omegazilla]

Showa: Hedorah and MechaG
Heisei: SMG, Destroyah, and possibly SG.
Millennium: Kaiser Ghidorah and possibly Orga

Mothra has the most victories over Godzilla actually. There was some "lost footage" on you tube until recently of some extra footage from the original fight from the 1964 movie that was pretty cool. love to get my hands on it.

While true, I would say Mothra is far from his most powerful opponent. Why? Simply because Mothra usually loses 1v1 fights to Godzilla , at least in the Millennium and Heisei series. For the Showa series they were more evenly matched. Like when the old dying imago Mothra gave Godzilla a run for his money in the original 1964 film. That certainly showed her power. Compare that with TBE where Mothra gets beat 1v1 by Godzilla thanks to his nuclear pulse, and SOS where Godzilla flat out kills her.

[GodzillaSpawn]

Showa: Hedorah and MechaG
Heisei: SMG, Destroyah, and possibly SG.
Millennium: Kaiser Ghidorah and possibly Orga

Mothra has the most victories over Godzilla actually. There was some "lost footage" on you tube until recently of some extra footage from the original fight from the 1964 movie that was pretty cool. love to get my hands on it.

While true, I would say Mothra is far from his most powerful opponent. Why? Simply because Mothra usually loses 1v1 fights to Godzilla , at least in the Millennium and Heisei series. For the Showa series they were more evenly matched. Like when the old dying imago Mothra gave Godzilla a run for his money in the original 1964 film. That certainly showed her power. Compare that with TBE where Mothra gets beat 1v1 by Godzilla thanks to his nuclear pulse, and SOS where Godzilla flat out kills her.

She just doesn't have the durability that Godzilla has. Even in the Showa series, she unloaded all her tricks on Godzilla but he wasn't near being defeated. It only took a couple of direct blasts of atomic ray and she was done. The two larva were lucky to e able to wrap him up in time because if he was just focused on one of them he would have killed them easily imo. After that, as you pointed out, she didn't do too well by herself, and even with help in GMK.

As for the most formidable....King Ghidorah in the Showa and Mecha Godzilla/Space Godzilla in the hesei. In the millenium, I guess Kiyru.

[Omegazilla]

Showa: Hedorah and MechaG
Heisei: SMG, Destroyah, and possibly SG.
Millennium: Kaiser Ghidorah and possibly Orga

Mothra has the most victories over Godzilla actually. There was some "lost footage" on you tube until recently of some extra footage from the original fight from the 1964 movie that was pretty cool. love to get my hands on it.

While true, I would say Mothra is far from his most powerful opponent. Why? Simply because Mothra usually loses 1v1 fights to Godzilla , at least in the Millennium and Heisei series. For the Showa series they were more evenly matched. Like when the old dying imago Mothra gave Godzilla a run for his money in the original 1964 film. That certainly showed her power. Compare that with TBE where Mothra gets beat 1v1 by Godzilla thanks to his nuclear pulse, and SOS where Godzilla flat out kills her.

She just doesn't have the durability that Godzilla has. Even in the Showa series, she unloaded all her tricks on Godzilla but he wasn't near being defeated. It only took a couple of direct blasts of atomic ray and she was done. The two larva were lucky to e able to wrap him up in time because if he was just focused on one of them he would have killed them easily imo. After that, as you pointed out, she didn't do too well by herself, and even with help in GMK.

As for the most formidable....King Ghidorah in the Showa and Mecha Godzilla/Space Godzilla in the hesei. In the millenium, I guess Kiyru.

Correct, but remember that Mothra was old and dying already. Could she have killed Godzilla if she was in peak condition? I doubt it, but it would be a more interesting fight.

[Bentley]

Mothra larva.

[GodzillaSpawn]

[/quote]She just doesn't have the durability that Godzilla has. Even in the Showa series, she unloaded all her tricks on Godzilla but he wasn't near being defeated. It only took a couple of direct blasts of atomic ray and she was done. The two larva were lucky to e able to wrap him up in time because if he was just focused on one of them he would have killed them easily imo. After that, as you pointed out, she didn't do too well by herself, and even with help in GMK.

As for the most formidable....King Ghidorah in the Showa and Mecha Godzilla/Space Godzilla in the hesei. In the millenium, I guess Kiyru.[/quote]

Correct, but remember that Mothra was old and dying already. Could she have killed Godzilla if she was in peak condition? I doubt it, but it would be a more interesting fight.[/quote]

Is there anything she can do to kill him? Mecha Godzilla, Gigan and Ghidorah couldn't with all their firepower. Even with the poison pixie dust, she lacks the ability to do the damage necessary to kill Godzilla. She's better off dropping him on the ocean over and over.

[godzilla96]

hedora

[locomike65]

omegazilla beat me to my point. the 64 film is one of the best fights and, true, in later series they made her less formidable but. She really cant be killed either. Typically in the series, whenever she dies she is replaced by another that fares better than the previous one. In the original she was almost dead before the fight started (just at the end fo her life cycle) and still beat him up more than anyone had to date. If you listen closely to the dialog its apparent that she didnt die from his blast but that she just ran out of time in her mature form(refer to life cycle of moths if neccesary to understand this). Its interesting that, after finally getting a good blow on her, he runs the other way rather than trying to go in and finish her off. Review the scene and youll see what im saying. He was defeated and getting the hell out of there.
The babys chased him down and made sure he went away.
I gotta agree with the comments about later movies, i dont feel like they stayed true to the earlier formulas but, even then, when you consider that she doesnt really die, his victorys are only short lived.
I would say in the end, because of that, If there were only 2 monsters on earth battling it out and those 2 were Godzilla and Mothra. She would eventually win even though he might fry a few incarnations of her before its over.

[GodzillaSpawn]

If we are going to be implying that Mothra has this cycle about her character that suggests that when she dies she is immediately replaced by a successor, that still leaves GMK Mothra, who faced a more powerful and more cunning Godzilla and wasn't replaced by another one. Also, if this theory was true, then the Mothra larvae who died between Mothra vs Godzilla and Ghidorah the Three-Headed Monster would have been replaced as well. Since there was only (seems to be) one Mothra in the immediate films afterwards, this shows that there is no correlation between the death of one Mothra and a birth of another.

Also, just because she usually dies after just having babies doesn't mean that she's not defeated. She's still defeated. Just because Gamera kills a Gyaos in one film and another one immediately arrives doesn't mean he didn't kill the first one. It just means that now he is going to kill two.

And I don't think statement that Godzilla had nothing to do with her death in '64 holds true for me either. Mothra was running out of ways to stop Godzilla. The two twins state that when she uses her poisonous pixie dust on Godzilla that it is "the last weapon she has left". She didn't just die because her time clock ran out, she died because she drained herself of every bit of energy left in just fighting Godzilla off. When he did hit her with radioactivity, she was too weak to recover. Godzilla probably thought her good as dead...she looked like she was done. Didn't really seem like he was even concerned with blasting her any more which would have been so easy to do with her lying there over her egg helpless and vulnerable. That's defeat. And I honestly never ever watched that scene and thought Godzilla was running away. And to say that she was trouncing him more than anybody before is not giving Kong enough credit. Godzilla took more abuse from King Kong and still proved to be the better fighter (in my opinion).

And in the 1993 film, Godzilla from what I remember had the upper-hand a good amount of the fight against Mothra. But ultimately Mothra and Battra had to team up to stop the greater threat.

[Legionmaster]

Obviously Bagan.

It's true that Godzilla has never bested Bagan in a film.

[locomike65]

godzillaspawn. some good points. Toho isnt the greatest on character continuity. Those 2 points you mentioned about GMK and the 2 only being 1 in the next film, i believe are examples of this.
It does seem logical that the fight the GZ in the 64 film might have hastened her death but it still true that she was an aged almost dead Mothra even before the fight began.
Now my point about him leaving vs yours. Remember before whe flew in he was all about trying to destroy that egg. If he still had some fight in him, wouldnt he have gone in to finish off the egg???? would have been easy at that point. But he goes the other way instead. RE Kong. Ive been vbery let down with that one because they really dont show Kong beating the crap out of him. Mostly the other way around even though they claim Kong to be the victor. GZ isnt on the ground incapacitated for most of the fight liek he was in the Mothra fight.
Re the rebirth thing. If you listen to the dialog (i honestly dont remember ifs its the Japanese, Us of both verions here) when they are on infant island trying to convince Mothra to come and help, the fairys state the she will be tranferred into the new born one after she dies and it is born. Also, the new baby always seems to know whats up the moment its born as far as where it needs to go, who it needs to fight etc.
I wasnt trying to say she never loses a battle though and agree with your comments in your second paragraph.
My nimpressions of not thinking GZ was running away after the fight in your scene were that same as yours until I strted studying the movie deeper. Its kinda interesting to me how it works that way in a couple spots
thanks for the great discussion, cool stuff man!

[GodzillaSpawn]

godzillaspawn. some good points. Toho isnt the greatest on character continuity. Those 2 points you mentioned about GMK and the 2 only being 1 in the next film, i believe are examples of this.
It does seem logical that the fight the GZ in the 64 film might have hastened her death but it still true that she was an aged almost dead Mothra even before the fight began.
Now my point about him leaving vs yours. Remember before whe flew in he was all about trying to destroy that egg. If he still had some fight in him, wouldnt he have gone in to finish off the egg???? would have been easy at that point. But he goes the other way instead. RE Kong. Ive been vbery let down with that one because they really dont show Kong beating the crap out of him. Mostly the other way around even though they claim Kong to be the victor. GZ isnt on the ground incapacitated for most of the fight liek he was in the Mothra fight.
Re the rebirth thing. If you listen to the dialog (i honestly dont remember ifs its the Japanese, Us of both verions here) when they are on infant island trying to convince Mothra to come and help, the fairys state the she will be tranferred into the new born one after she dies and it is born. Also, the new baby always seems to know whats up the moment its born as far as where it needs to go, who it needs to fight etc.
I wasnt trying to say she never loses a battle though and agree with your comments in your second paragraph.
My nimpressions of not thinking GZ was running away after the fight in your scene were that same as yours until I strted studying the movie deeper. Its kinda interesting to me how it works that way in a couple spots
thanks for the great discussion, cool stuff man!

I got to admit, the moment I disagreed with you I expected you to reply with rudeness and insults since that seems to be popular on this forum lol. Kudos for responding and carrying on a constructive debate.

Your are absolutely right that toho isn't famous for character consistency and continuity. I accept that point of view as well. But while that doesn't prove my point right in a sense, it doesn't necessarily prove yours right either. In only 2 out of 5 films that they fight each other, it only shows Godzilla kill an adult Mothra and then have to fight the larvae immediately after ('64 obviously and SOS). He doesn't kill her in "Sea Monster" or "Battle for Earth", but he does kill her in GMK. So I just don't think that's enough evidence to go off of either way. I haven't watched the Hesei Mothra series, I'm only talking about how she is portrayed in the Godzilla series.

I do agree that she was dying before fighting Godzilla. But I think the twins meant that a battle of that magnitude would be the end of Mothra In other words, I personally believe had she not fought Godzilla and just relaxed on the island she would have lived longer. How much more? Not much most likely.

Godzilla did seem very interested in the egg. But at the time it was the only unique thing to him. Hell, for all we know, he could have tried to raise the Mothra larvae since it seems he's always adopting kids lol. It wasn't until a giant butterfly showed up from out of nowhere and started dragging him around that he generally lost interest in the egg. But, I also would credit Godzilla's exit as part of Toho's continuity gaps. Did he forget the egg existed? Did Mothra block it from his view? Even to this day, I still don't know what the hell Godzilla is trying to do in that film lol. What's he even looking for? But I am interested to give this film another watch and look for that scene and if it looks to me that Godzilla retreated in any fashion. But part of this debate feels like we are thinking harder into it than Toho did.

As for Kong? Well, he certainly got beat up way more than Godzilla and was almost beat to death until the lightning storm. Even after the storm, Godzilla more than held his own. Every attack Kong landed, Godzilla would land one of his own. But back to my point, Godzilla did take harder hits than anything Mothra gave him (aside form the poison, and I can't measure how effective that was). When Kong was dropped from the balloons and knocked Godzilla tumbling down the rocky mountain, it had to be one of the hardest hits the monster king has even taken. He also got thrown by his tail and judo tossed a couple of times, not to mention a tree jammed down his throat. Godzilla wasn't even injured after those cases as he got right back up and started hunting Kong down, so I do question how much of an effect Mothra had by dragging him and knocking him over with wind-gusts. And in my ignorant opinion, Kong was swimming away from Godzilla to survive (not as a victor). But it was left ambiguous, much like Inception, so if someone wants to think Kong won then they are able to do that.

:xilien:

[locomike65]

again, good points. As for Kong, according to the movie(TOHO) he won. I always felt , according to the fight scenes he didnt.But the story line from Toho is that Kong won.
I think you are fogetting the part in the 64 film where mothra is pummelling the hell out of his head. But, now that you remind me of some of the Kong moves, perhaps they are more or less up there with the head pummelling he took from Mothra/ The later Mothra series does reveal much more about her. as for the 64 GZ retreat. he clearly left instead of finishing both the moth and the egg. Retreat might be slightly strong idk. He did not finish what he started because Mothra put up such a fight. SHe would have clearly been able to do much more had she not been almost dead at the time.
Theres another point, and this is more abouot storyline. Mothra usually has to die in the plot. Its part of the "sacred sacrafice" if you will. And , of course, is neccessary for any rebirth symoblism to take place. I could go on about that but that might be considered highjacking the thread lol. maybee somehwere else lol.
footnote. my theory on the Kong victory; for marketing purposes, TOHO felt kong would have to win for the US audiences, but their Japanese pride just wouldnt allow them to show Kong beating the hell out of their monster. And thats why we got the end product that we got IMHO. check em both out again and let me know what yu think.
thanks again.

[GodzillaSpawn]

Is there actually an official decision that Kong won? I always just read what was obviously shown to us--that both monsters fell in the water but only Kong was seen surfacing and swimming away. I always thought it was left ambiguous on purpose and that was why no clear winner was shown on screen. At the lengths Toho had to go through just to make Kong even a challenge for Godzilla, why even bother? It didn't even feel like the same monster. Even diehard Kong fans had to feel unfamilar with their Toho counterpart. Over twice as tall, lightning enhancements, still gets his borderline knocked unconscious, and just happens to be the only one shown at the end? I'd still feel kind of defeated.